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hi and welcome to the Neil Ashton podcast.

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In each episode,

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we explained some of the fascinating ways that science and engineering

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are changing the world around us.

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We talk to leading engineers from elite level sports like cycling and Formula One

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to some of the world's top academics.

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To understand how fluid dynamics, machine learning and supercomputing

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are bringing in a new era of discovery,

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we also hear some of their life stories, their career advice

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and lessons they've learned on the way that I hope will be helpful to you too.

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So sit back and enjoy this episode.

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So this episode

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it's a bit different than the previous one.

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The previous one was with Dr Florian Menter, and it was really a deep dive into

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computational fluid dynamics. CFD, that is, uh, obviously my background area

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and

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a core part a core part of engineering.

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Today's episode

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is something um,

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that I mentioned in the intro would be a theme of this podcast,

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which is Formula One, cycling and the link with that

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to engineering.

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And I can't think of really a better person that

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has done all those than Professor Tony Purnell. So

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we actually, even though

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this is a long

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episode. This may be one that you may take a few attempts to get through.

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It's just over two hours,

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but I really he's had such an interesting life

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story that I didn't want to cut it short.

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I wanted to have the

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the full thing. I even didn't play the tricks of trying to speed it up.

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You know, when you edit, you can change the the speed

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And I tried it and it it just didn't seem natural.

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So I I wanted to keep the whole thing pretty much unedited so you could hear the whole

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life story as a as a credit

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as a credit to Tony.

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Um,

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So

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Tony and I actually met through British cycling, and

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we actually don't talk about it that much. Part of the reason I think there is still,

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you know, NDAs and a bit of secrecy, I think, until the next Olympics is over.

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So maybe we'll try and do, uh,

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an episode again when we can really get into the details of the

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work that was done to to develop the bike for the last Olympics.

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Which was sort of how I I got to know Tony.

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And then I started to hear so many interesting stories

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because as you'll hear, I

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guess I won't spoil too much of it, but just to give you a sense of his achievements.

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He started off in sort of the early days of

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motorsport and arguably was one of the people who brought

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new technology to the way that wind tunnel testing was done to aerodynamics.

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But he rose up to be the technical director

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and lead of what was the Jaguar Racing team

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and how it transitioned into the Red Bull team.

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And I think hearing that story of how that happened,

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maybe it's the first time it's been spoken about publicly.

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I'm not sure, but it's very interesting

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to hear about that, to hear about the journey, that he went through the challenges

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and what Formula One was like in the time of Bernie Ecclestone and Max Mosley.

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So really interesting on that. And then he talks about how he transitioned

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out of being in a Pacific Formula One team

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to working for the FIA to going into IndyCar.

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And of course, he started actually earlier on,

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uh in IndyCar as well,

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and then we start to talk a little bit about

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going into the British cycling time, and we actually missed out so much.

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I mean, he's a professor at Cambridge University. He's arguably

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been a supervisor and helped many people now who have sort of made it in the sport.

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And so he deserves a lot of credit

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for for what he's done. But I I like this episode because

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from a motivation point of view, it shows how you can.

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You may think you're going to do one thing

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at the beginning of your life or your career,

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but it's amazing the turns that you take

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and the opportunities that you can make for yourself

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and I I Certainly when I hear his story,

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I'm motivated.

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When I look at sort of my future career in engineering and science and

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and when you think that maybe you're just gonna stay in the same job for a while and you

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and then you hear these stories like what Tony has,

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where he's moved around and done so many exciting things, it just

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gives you a lot of motivation.

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Um, at least personally, anyway,

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So, I, I hope you, uh I hope you enjoy this this episode. We we it is like I said, a a

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sort of a build up, I guess, of going through the early days hearing the motivations.

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And I think a lot of that makes sense,

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as you then get towards the end of the episode and you understand why,

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uh, certain things, uh, certain things happen

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as I mentioned the previous one.

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Put my hands up. If you listen to this, you can't see my hands being up, but

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the audio is probably not as good as I'd like it to be.

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This was actually one of the first recordings that I did And, um,

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didn't have this microphone I'm talking to you on now

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and just kind of still learning the ropes. I guess of this podcasting. So, please,

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please, bear bear with me. And if you want to see the the video interview,

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you can go onto the YouTube channel, uh, to watch that.

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So, yeah, sit back and enjoy this episode with Professor Tony Purnell.

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Yeah, you You've had a pretty impressive career, I must say.

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And I think it's something that

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I'd like more people

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to sort of know about.

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Cos I think you've done a really interesting

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journey of moving all around the place and like

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Formula One, cycling, owning your own business. Automotive?

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Um,

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yeah. Where? Where do you want to start?

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Well,

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I suppose the first thing is is that I do I do think I've had an utterly privileged life

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and,

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uh, you know,

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done a lot of the things that I kind of dreamt I'd like to do when I was a schoolboy.

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So, um,

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uh, while I would never have predicted the way things

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turned out,

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I've been pretty happy with it. It's, uh

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what did you want to do?

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Um, yeah. Like when you were growing up.

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I think the earliest thing I can remember was getting a scale

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electric set for Christmas.

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Uh, a huge box, second hand,

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uh, masses and masses of track loads of cars. But absolutely nothing worked.

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And

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I was so thrilled with the thing that I was determined to get it to work.

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I guess I would have been about 10.

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Um,

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and, uh,

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it took me forever.

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I mean, not not days, months and months

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of trying to figure this stuff out.

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Uh, cleaning.

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You know, there was a lot of cleaning involved. I remember that,

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uh,

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and,

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you know, sort of

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thinking. Oh,

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this was broken. It's probably best to fix it again.

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And then waiting for a birthday where I asked for a soldering arm,

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this sort of thing.

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Um,

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and, uh, I think that's when I first became really enamoured with motor racing.

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Uh,

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and by the age of 14,

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I had the most enormous electrics track in the bedroom

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and was building my own cars. Um

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uh, getting parts from America where slot car racing was a thing,

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Um,

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and doing crazy things, uh, to break the lap record.

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I always remember I.

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I had to make the lap record significant so that it would be like, 50 laps.

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It had to be, you know, because they were, like,

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10, 22nd laps. Pretty,

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pretty short.

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Um,

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and then I

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remember doubling up the transformers to pump 24 volts down there

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and the cars

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burn very quickly and then burning out,

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Uh

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uh, and then the the eureka moment. When when I put, um

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uh,

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uh cycle repair,

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uh, latex rubber

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on the tyres.

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Just allowed them to dry off a little bit. Set the car

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and the the extra grip that, um,

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rubber cement gave

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for a minute or so was

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unbelievable.

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So, uh, yeah, yeah, that's

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it's all down to scale electrics.

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So you were Really? Was that the thing?

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Then when you were a teenager,

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you were like, I want to get into motor.

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That Is that what drove me then to

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what? To pick at university et cetera.

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No. Funnily enough, I think that that

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made me want to be an engineer.

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Um,

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I think that

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a

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career in motor racing

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was secondary to wanting to become an engineer.

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It's hard to hard to be sure,

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but, um,

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yeah, I was really

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If you'd asked me at 14 what I wanted to be it was to be an engineer.

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Um,

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and

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I think, by 16 or 17,

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I thought, oh, an engineer in motor racing would be really nice.

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Um,

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so

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you know, I did kind of combine the things

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um,

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but I I also race my bike like a madman

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at that age, so yeah.

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So what? Sort of like road

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road racing? I do in the summer. I do three races a week.

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Um, I cycled everywhere, cycled

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around the motor racing circuit at Crystal Palace.

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Um,

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I went round Herne Hill one day a week,

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and then I'd do a time trial or a road race at the weekends.

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And, uh, you know, I absolutely love that.

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And so now I see the cycling connect.

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Um, we'll come to that later, but I didn't realise. So you were very keen.

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Like an amateur cyclist. Basically, right. You were competing?

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Um,

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very, very keen. Yeah.

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Yeah. II. I was O OK at cross country and long distance running.

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Um,

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but they struck me as all pain.

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Um,

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not very interesting. Whereas cycle racing

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was like a cross between,

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uh, moto

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GP

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cross country

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and chess

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Because there's this huge, uh,

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tactical element which isn't apparent to the general public.

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Um,

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and that makes it possible for somebody with,

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uh, not enough talent to to win, um,

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by just getting it right.

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Where is cross country race?

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The best guy wins every time.

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You know, I, I can remember, um, running around Hyde Park for,

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uh, Manchester University

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in the cross country team. And, um, it was several laps of Hyde Park

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and Sebastian Coe went by me

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at a Su

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It struck me as somebody sprinting past,

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You know, he he

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But it wasn't just that he lapped me. It was like he

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his weight would have blown me off course and sucked me back in again.

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So, you know, there was

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little talent. I never had any of that.

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But cycle racing even always gives you a chance,

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which really appealed to me.

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So you, um

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So you went to Manchester University? So was this.

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I think you may have told me. Was this the unionist then? Or was it Manchester? Which,

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to be honest, uh,

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I left school and went to work in a steel works in Cardiff.

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Uh, not intending to go

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university.

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Um,

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and,

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uh, that was, uh, really traumatic.

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Uh, I was, uh, employed as a, uh, apprentice fitter

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in this big Welsh steelworks,

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And, uh, the other apprentices just called me English.

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And, uh

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um,

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you know, we were treated very strictly,

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and, um,

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it absolutely, totally made me think,

260
00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:51,070
Oh, my God.

261
00:13:51,900 --> 00:13:58,760
Uh, this is what work is like unless I get, uh, some qualifications.

262
00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:01,099
So, uh,

263
00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:03,989
I got to Manchester.

264
00:14:04,719 --> 00:14:06,570
Super motivated

265
00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:07,900
by fear.

266
00:14:08,890 --> 00:14:09,270
Yeah.

267
00:14:09,390 --> 00:14:13,710
Yeah. It wasn't the modern day. You know encouragement. It was Oh, my God.

268
00:14:13,729 --> 00:14:15,080
I would not want to go

269
00:14:15,539 --> 00:14:17,059
and work in a factory.

270
00:14:17,729 --> 00:14:18,380
Uh,

271
00:14:18,650 --> 00:14:22,510
and clock in, You know, they had these cards to clock in, and

272
00:14:23,599 --> 00:14:25,849
yeah, yeah, it was horrible.

273
00:14:27,809 --> 00:14:29,489
Well, well, I should say, is

274
00:14:29,719 --> 00:14:29,770
a a

275
00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:36,030
smaller side, I. I grew up in North Wales, so I've been in Wales, you know? And, uh,

276
00:14:36,229 --> 00:14:39,469
just like many other countries in the United Kingdom, there is a

277
00:14:39,719 --> 00:14:41,599
healthy or unhealthy,

278
00:14:41,609 --> 00:14:46,630
depending on the respect of sort of universal hatred of the English.

279
00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:49,340
I think so. Unfortunately, I think you may have been on the

280
00:14:49,679 --> 00:14:50,780
the end of, uh,

281
00:14:51,770 --> 00:14:52,260
end of that

282
00:14:52,489 --> 00:14:54,989
definitely was. I definitely was.

283
00:14:57,429 --> 00:15:00,289
OK, so you were. So you went up to Manchester,

284
00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:03,719
as you said, highly motivated. And you picked

285
00:15:04,169 --> 00:15:05,690
engineering. That was right.

286
00:15:05,869 --> 00:15:12,330
Actually, I did a, uh, a joint honours degree in engineering and mythology.

287
00:15:12,739 --> 00:15:13,450
Um,

288
00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:18,719
I don't really know why. It's just that I was

289
00:15:19,229 --> 00:15:22,460
enamoured by material science at the time,

290
00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:25,739
and I thought this course looked really good.

291
00:15:26,700 --> 00:15:27,559
Um,

292
00:15:28,909 --> 00:15:29,609
and

293
00:15:30,719 --> 00:15:31,200
it

294
00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:33,239
it was really good, actually.

295
00:15:33,250 --> 00:15:39,770
Although it only did sort of 60% of the engineering course and 60% of the materials,

296
00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:45,479
and they always emphasised how this course that was 20% more work,

297
00:15:45,890 --> 00:15:47,880
you know, than the other courses.

298
00:15:49,099 --> 00:15:52,500
Um, maybe true. Maybe not. But

299
00:15:52,940 --> 00:15:55,599
I certainly enjoyed it at Manchester

300
00:15:56,289 --> 00:16:00,669
and III. I was so convinced that, um,

301
00:16:02,270 --> 00:16:05,010
I was way behind the other students that

302
00:16:05,219 --> 00:16:08,169
I probably worked twice as hard.

303
00:16:09,250 --> 00:16:10,830
And then, uh, II

304
00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,640
I came out top of the exams at

305
00:16:14,969 --> 00:16:16,609
the first year

306
00:16:17,679 --> 00:16:19,340
at the end of the first year, and

307
00:16:20,390 --> 00:16:21,650
I thought, Oh, blimey,

308
00:16:23,669 --> 00:16:24,409
you know, And

309
00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:29,679
then I didn't want to go backwards, so I just carried on working.

310
00:16:31,210 --> 00:16:31,239
And

311
00:16:31,390 --> 00:16:33,770
where was that in Manchester? Which, um,

312
00:16:34,489 --> 00:16:38,619
which building was this In the Sackville Street sort of area. Or you

313
00:16:39,049 --> 00:16:39,190
missed

314
00:16:42,650 --> 00:16:44,349
then the Department of

315
00:16:45,169 --> 00:16:50,200
Mechanical Engineering or the Baker building? George Begg. I think

316
00:16:50,690 --> 00:16:51,510
George Beck.

317
00:16:51,890 --> 00:16:55,700
Yeah, well, you know, like, this is kind of why I always like talking to you,

318
00:16:55,710 --> 00:16:56,950
because it's kind of like

319
00:16:57,280 --> 00:16:59,489
like that's why I went to university and that

320
00:16:59,500 --> 00:17:01,969
Sackville Street and the George Beg it's kind of,

321
00:17:01,979 --> 00:17:02,229
um

322
00:17:02,500 --> 00:17:04,319
it's interesting to see who's gone.

323
00:17:04,618 --> 00:17:08,790
It probably was like a newer building then because when when I went to it, it felt,

324
00:17:08,868 --> 00:17:11,358
but I guess it was probably built, Um,

325
00:17:11,598 --> 00:17:12,430
in the what?

326
00:17:12,608 --> 00:17:13,829
Seventies eighties?

327
00:17:14,020 --> 00:17:15,750
Not Sackville Street, but maybe

328
00:17:16,010 --> 00:17:21,358
the whole campus, I think, went up in the seventies.

329
00:17:21,489 --> 00:17:22,010
Um,

330
00:17:22,670 --> 00:17:22,680
I

331
00:17:23,150 --> 00:17:25,339
was there in 80.

332
00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:29,900
Yeah, 8081 I think somewhere around there.

333
00:17:30,609 --> 00:17:33,250
And yeah, it was it was all modern

334
00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:35,260
state of the art.

335
00:17:36,729 --> 00:17:36,910
Yeah.

336
00:17:38,500 --> 00:17:40,469
So that was your Manchester thing? What?

337
00:17:40,599 --> 00:17:41,790
So did you.

338
00:17:42,670 --> 00:17:46,410
What, then was your feeling? Was it still Hey, I want to be a motor sport,

339
00:17:46,619 --> 00:17:50,140
Get into motorsport or more Just general engineering, then.

340
00:17:50,619 --> 00:17:51,250
No,

341
00:17:52,739 --> 00:17:55,400
I think when I was at Manchester,

342
00:17:55,689 --> 00:17:56,349
I was

343
00:17:59,420 --> 00:18:03,239
kind of I wanted to go on in academia.

344
00:18:03,500 --> 00:18:05,800
Actually, I just didn't want to go back to work.

345
00:18:09,089 --> 00:18:10,270
And, uh,

346
00:18:10,849 --> 00:18:13,780
I remember walking along

347
00:18:14,780 --> 00:18:20,319
and seeing a a little poster for what was called Kennedy Scholarships

348
00:18:20,849 --> 00:18:22,439
to MIT.

349
00:18:23,459 --> 00:18:27,160
And, uh, I'd spent two summers, uh, hitchhiking

350
00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:30,849
and greyhound busing around America

351
00:18:31,930 --> 00:18:35,140
and really like the idea of, um,

352
00:18:35,689 --> 00:18:38,310
of of going to university in America.

353
00:18:39,369 --> 00:18:44,709
Uh, so I remember there were several adverts on this notice board

354
00:18:45,459 --> 00:18:47,280
and I applied to McGill

355
00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:51,410
and to, uh, MIT,

356
00:18:52,099 --> 00:18:52,920
uh,

357
00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:57,140
and and the Kennedy Scholarship.

358
00:18:57,949 --> 00:18:59,290
And, um,

359
00:19:00,010 --> 00:19:02,910
amazingly, I got the Kennedy Scholarship

360
00:19:03,369 --> 00:19:06,030
and I really was amazed because,

361
00:19:06,839 --> 00:19:09,260
uh, I remember the interview.

362
00:19:10,250 --> 00:19:13,750
Um, everybody else was from Oxford and Cambridge,

363
00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:17,869
I think. I think literally everybody else.

364
00:19:18,739 --> 00:19:22,359
Uh, so I thought, you know, you've not a hope here.

365
00:19:23,270 --> 00:19:24,229
Um,

366
00:19:24,739 --> 00:19:27,290
And then, uh, I got, uh,

367
00:19:27,530 --> 00:19:28,430
uh

368
00:19:29,750 --> 00:19:33,209
a scholarship with my McGill application.

369
00:19:34,349 --> 00:19:39,810
So, uh, I remember I had a crazy week where I suddenly had

370
00:19:40,150 --> 00:19:44,680
a scholarship to McGill and a scholarship to MIT.

371
00:19:45,770 --> 00:19:46,239
Uh,

372
00:19:46,790 --> 00:19:47,489
wow.

373
00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:49,310
The people listening

374
00:19:49,719 --> 00:19:52,780
II. I remember looking a while back

375
00:19:53,060 --> 00:19:53,619
Kennedy

376
00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:55,750
that that's a very prestigious thing

377
00:19:55,859 --> 00:19:56,390
to get.

378
00:19:56,760 --> 00:20:00,160
Now, Kennedy Scott is seen as one of the most prestigious

379
00:20:00,270 --> 00:20:02,819
things. So And I guess back then, the

380
00:20:03,270 --> 00:20:05,630
how should I say it? The inequality of

381
00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:08,670
Oxbridge versus the rest was probably even stronger.

382
00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:10,170
It was a mega deal.

383
00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:11,510
Um,

384
00:20:11,910 --> 00:20:13,170
the, um

385
00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:17,280
you know, the things I remember was things like the,

386
00:20:17,290 --> 00:20:22,599
um the Kennedy family would invite the Kennedy scholars

387
00:20:22,900 --> 00:20:24,290
to the, um,

388
00:20:24,750 --> 00:20:29,420
to Hyannis Port, where the Kennedy compound was,

389
00:20:30,489 --> 00:20:31,459
um

390
00:20:31,989 --> 00:20:39,030
And, um, we'd have, uh, you know, Lords and Sirs come

391
00:20:39,439 --> 00:20:40,569
and take us out to

392
00:20:41,660 --> 00:20:42,800
this sort of thing.

393
00:20:42,959 --> 00:20:43,719
Um,

394
00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:46,560
so you really got the impression

395
00:20:47,290 --> 00:20:53,550
that, uh, you know, you stumbled into something that was really, really desirable,

396
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:54,569
and

397
00:20:55,050 --> 00:20:57,270
and it it really was, You know, it's,

398
00:20:57,890 --> 00:20:58,540
uh

399
00:20:58,810 --> 00:21:01,300
it's really leans towards, uh,

400
00:21:01,510 --> 00:21:02,660
politics.

401
00:21:03,319 --> 00:21:06,410
Um, but every year they they seem to give

402
00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:08,869
a nod to an engineer or a scientist.

403
00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:14,459
And do you think that was a pivotal moment to you? Then? Do you think if you

404
00:21:14,979 --> 00:21:18,369
hadn't have got that, your life would have turned very different?

405
00:21:18,949 --> 00:21:21,739
Absolutely. The Kennedy scholarship was the

406
00:21:22,260 --> 00:21:24,900
number one best thing that ever happened to me.

407
00:21:25,949 --> 00:21:26,949
Um,

408
00:21:28,030 --> 00:21:33,630
you know, it was absolutely fantastic. I, I you know, I went to university.

409
00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:40,050
That is usually, uh, you know, very, very expensive for people to attend.

410
00:21:40,790 --> 00:21:42,890
And I had all my fees paid.

411
00:21:43,660 --> 00:21:47,119
And on top of that, I had a stipend.

412
00:21:47,599 --> 00:21:48,589
So I had

413
00:21:49,369 --> 00:21:50,920
money in my pocket.

414
00:21:51,750 --> 00:21:53,170
And, um,

415
00:21:54,479 --> 00:21:56,369
I loved MIT.

416
00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:58,439
You know, it was, um

417
00:21:59,140 --> 00:22:02,119
They say it's like drinking from a far hydrant,

418
00:22:02,599 --> 00:22:03,040
you know,

419
00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:05,000
rush of knowledge.

420
00:22:07,349 --> 00:22:08,719
And, um,

421
00:22:09,989 --> 00:22:16,329
I. I took as many courses as I could I because over in the states,

422
00:22:16,599 --> 00:22:18,719
you elect what you want to do.

423
00:22:19,579 --> 00:22:22,900
Um, as long as you tick some boxes to get your,

424
00:22:23,089 --> 00:22:24,839
you know, chosen degree,

425
00:22:25,459 --> 00:22:26,040
Um,

426
00:22:26,140 --> 00:22:30,380
and I ignored all the advice and took more than I I

427
00:22:30,839 --> 00:22:32,520
was advised to do.

428
00:22:33,479 --> 00:22:34,130
Um,

429
00:22:34,780 --> 00:22:35,420
and

430
00:22:36,209 --> 00:22:37,880
I actually found it difficult,

431
00:22:37,890 --> 00:22:44,040
because I'm not really very good at analysis in the way that I see,

432
00:22:45,099 --> 00:22:46,030
you know, a

433
00:22:46,209 --> 00:22:48,699
real Cambridge professor.

434
00:22:48,900 --> 00:22:51,390
They're just awesome.

435
00:22:53,199 --> 00:22:55,040
And I'm not like that,

436
00:22:56,089 --> 00:22:57,140
but I

437
00:22:57,569 --> 00:23:01,199
really enjoyed the wide range of courses.

438
00:23:02,180 --> 00:23:05,280
So because I could elect what to do I.

439
00:23:05,290 --> 00:23:07,290
I took things that I wanted to do,

440
00:23:07,300 --> 00:23:10,119
and I wanted to learn about electronics and software.

441
00:23:10,959 --> 00:23:14,579
Um, And you you, you know, early eighties,

442
00:23:15,219 --> 00:23:18,829
these things were brand spanking new digital.

443
00:23:20,420 --> 00:23:21,170
Uh,

444
00:23:22,250 --> 00:23:24,599
and I learned about things

445
00:23:25,650 --> 00:23:27,640
called microprocessors,

446
00:23:27,849 --> 00:23:31,349
which were absolute bleeding edge. At the time,

447
00:23:33,569 --> 00:23:37,510
I learned that digital electronics was actually pretty simple.

448
00:23:38,180 --> 00:23:39,469
Kind of like Lego.

449
00:23:40,609 --> 00:23:41,160
Um,

450
00:23:41,530 --> 00:23:45,849
and you could interface it with mechanical things.

451
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:54,239
Um, I took a number of design courses, and one of the, uh, projects we had to do was

452
00:23:54,839 --> 00:23:57,510
to build a little robot.

453
00:23:57,969 --> 00:23:58,699
Um,

454
00:23:59,650 --> 00:24:00,859
and you know,

455
00:24:03,780 --> 00:24:05,000
it was a it was

456
00:24:05,199 --> 00:24:08,439
pivotal to my career because I came out of MIT

457
00:24:09,410 --> 00:24:10,339
thinking,

458
00:24:11,750 --> 00:24:17,199
uh, anything with computers or microprocessors holds no fear,

459
00:24:18,020 --> 00:24:18,719
and yeah,

460
00:24:19,199 --> 00:24:20,160
uh,

461
00:24:20,449 --> 00:24:20,680
I think

462
00:24:20,890 --> 00:24:24,880
people who saw what you could do, and you showed it to them.

463
00:24:24,890 --> 00:24:27,719
They thought you were some sort of frigging genius.

464
00:24:28,430 --> 00:24:28,969
Uh,

465
00:24:29,959 --> 00:24:35,439
but But actually, you don't have to be a genius to be to do that stuff.

466
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:42,170
And Neil, the other thing that MIT gave me was the choice of Master's thesis.

467
00:24:42,959 --> 00:24:46,619
Your master's thesis was a big part of your degree,

468
00:24:47,390 --> 00:24:50,739
and I chose to write one on

469
00:24:51,180 --> 00:24:54,260
aerodynamic aspects of Formula One design.

470
00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:57,099
Um,

471
00:24:58,839 --> 00:25:05,040
I wrote this very sort of, uh, step back systems

472
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:07,109
view of a race car,

473
00:25:09,199 --> 00:25:10,689
and,

474
00:25:10,869 --> 00:25:11,849
um,

475
00:25:13,239 --> 00:25:14,829
during the holidays,

476
00:25:15,030 --> 00:25:18,939
I remember I went to a race at Brands Hatch

477
00:25:20,060 --> 00:25:22,030
Formula One race,

478
00:25:22,609 --> 00:25:25,020
but I think in those days it was a

479
00:25:25,229 --> 00:25:27,199
non championship one.

480
00:25:28,099 --> 00:25:29,079
Anyway,

481
00:25:29,300 --> 00:25:32,150
I managed to get in

482
00:25:34,530 --> 00:25:36,030
by bluff. I think

483
00:25:36,239 --> 00:25:37,410
I certainly didn't have any

484
00:25:39,290 --> 00:25:41,170
and I went to

485
00:25:41,339 --> 00:25:44,140
Peter Warr at Lotus. You know, I just

486
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:46,920
in those days you could just walk in

487
00:25:47,390 --> 00:25:48,359
to the garret

488
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:50,069
or the paddock.

489
00:25:51,030 --> 00:25:57,079
And I said, Hey, I'm doing this thesis at MIT. I've got a scholarship.

490
00:25:57,589 --> 00:25:59,050
I could do it for you

491
00:26:00,430 --> 00:26:02,810
and he kind of said, uh,

492
00:26:03,670 --> 00:26:05,170
away child,

493
00:26:08,900 --> 00:26:14,319
he was not at all encouraging in any way.

494
00:26:14,670 --> 00:26:15,839
And then the

495
00:26:16,069 --> 00:26:18,709
team next door was called Ensign

496
00:26:18,890 --> 00:26:19,560
Racing,

497
00:26:20,979 --> 00:26:23,640
which was like at the back of the grid.

498
00:26:24,660 --> 00:26:25,469
Um,

499
00:26:26,239 --> 00:26:28,920
and, uh, I knocked on their door,

500
00:26:29,939 --> 00:26:33,709
and their technical director was a guy called Nigel Bennett.

501
00:26:34,599 --> 00:26:38,619
And he said, Wow, that sounds fantastic. Come up on Monday.

502
00:26:39,500 --> 00:26:43,189
So I drove up to Lichfield, uh,

503
00:26:43,329 --> 00:26:44,000
to

504
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:45,880
ensign world headquarters,

505
00:26:47,010 --> 00:26:47,510
uh,

506
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,829
knocked on the door of their Portakabin.

507
00:26:53,079 --> 00:26:53,099
The

508
00:26:53,410 --> 00:26:54,060
glamour.

509
00:26:54,540 --> 00:26:59,329
Next thing you know, I had a holiday job, and I was kind of working,

510
00:27:00,619 --> 00:27:03,270
you know, with Nigel on my project.

511
00:27:03,770 --> 00:27:04,520
Um,

512
00:27:05,300 --> 00:27:09,839
and, uh, Nigel was very, very encouraging.

513
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:12,290
And, uh,

514
00:27:13,780 --> 00:27:19,520
funny enough, II. I still see, uh, Nigel fairly regularly.

515
00:27:19,650 --> 00:27:21,579
He's fairly elderly. Now,

516
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:22,310
um,

517
00:27:23,030 --> 00:27:26,030
you know, he gave me a lot of encouragement, and then, uh,

518
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:29,250
that was my sort of first taste.

519
00:27:30,719 --> 00:27:33,229
And then I finished my thesis

520
00:27:33,979 --> 00:27:38,349
and got a scholarship to Cambridge to do a PhD.

521
00:27:39,500 --> 00:27:42,239
Uh, and I was jogging along with that,

522
00:27:42,459 --> 00:27:43,430
um,

523
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:44,800
and

524
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,209
Nigel gave my,

525
00:27:47,949 --> 00:27:49,130
uh,

526
00:27:49,260 --> 00:27:49,959
thesis

527
00:27:50,699 --> 00:27:53,040
to somebody at Newman/Haas,

528
00:27:55,689 --> 00:27:58,060
uh, because he

529
00:27:58,270 --> 00:28:00,630
he left Ensign

530
00:28:01,630 --> 00:28:01,829
go

531
00:28:02,030 --> 00:28:02,079
in

532
00:28:02,209 --> 00:28:02,229
the

533
00:28:02,630 --> 00:28:02,910
car,

534
00:28:04,109 --> 00:28:08,359
and, uh, he was the designer of the Lola Indy car.

535
00:28:10,780 --> 00:28:11,579
And, uh,

536
00:28:11,739 --> 00:28:14,630
Newman/Haas had bought this, uh,

537
00:28:14,969 --> 00:28:18,569
electronic engine management system from

538
00:28:18,900 --> 00:28:19,609
Bosch,

539
00:28:20,430 --> 00:28:21,180
which was

540
00:28:21,619 --> 00:28:22,569
apparently

541
00:28:22,699 --> 00:28:24,849
utterly revolutionary,

542
00:28:25,589 --> 00:28:27,609
and they needed somebody to run it.

543
00:28:28,660 --> 00:28:33,250
And, uh, Nigel knew that I could do electronics.

544
00:28:34,089 --> 00:28:37,819
And, uh, it was part of my thesis, actually,

545
00:28:38,089 --> 00:28:39,989
um, I mentioned a little

546
00:28:40,459 --> 00:28:43,030
data acquisition system that I'd built.

547
00:28:43,910 --> 00:28:48,630
And, uh, next thing you know, I'm in Chicago working for Newman/Haas

548
00:28:49,229 --> 00:28:51,489
running the Bosch management system.

549
00:28:52,739 --> 00:28:53,729
And to

550
00:28:54,050 --> 00:28:57,589
tell you how crazy life is

551
00:28:58,709 --> 00:28:58,739
So

552
00:28:58,880 --> 00:28:58,890
a

553
00:28:59,459 --> 00:29:00,369
young guy,

554
00:29:00,550 --> 00:29:01,140
um,

555
00:29:01,270 --> 00:29:05,180
I've sort of turned my back on the academia to take this job.

556
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:06,780
Um,

557
00:29:06,930 --> 00:29:09,380
I'm working with the Bosch engineers.

558
00:29:10,319 --> 00:29:11,010
Uh,

559
00:29:11,609 --> 00:29:14,699
and we go to a dynamometer

560
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,020
in Midland, Texas,

561
00:29:17,569 --> 00:29:21,819
debunk the thing, get it all working. It comes to the great day

562
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:27,430
when Mario Andretti is going to drive. The Newman/Haas car

563
00:29:27,829 --> 00:29:30,609
with the Bosch fuel management system.

564
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:33,939
Carl Haas, who owned the team, had spent

565
00:29:34,180 --> 00:29:35,510
absolute a

566
00:29:35,849 --> 00:29:37,689
mint

567
00:29:38,060 --> 00:29:39,260
on this system.

568
00:29:40,260 --> 00:29:41,640
And, um,

569
00:29:43,219 --> 00:29:49,030
Carl used to bless the car with his hands before a race on the grid.

570
00:29:49,670 --> 00:29:51,290
It was very superstitious.

571
00:29:52,359 --> 00:29:55,150
And the year before, the car was

572
00:29:56,069 --> 00:29:59,910
sponsored by Beatrix Foods,

573
00:30:01,430 --> 00:30:02,170
um,

574
00:30:05,199 --> 00:30:05,780
and

575
00:30:06,510 --> 00:30:08,969
the the sponsor of change car.

576
00:30:10,510 --> 00:30:16,319
And Carl was just beside himself with nerves. Cos Mario stuck it on Paul.

577
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:18,199
Um,

578
00:30:18,729 --> 00:30:20,199
and somehow

579
00:30:20,380 --> 00:30:24,609
Carl blessed the car in fifth place on the grid

580
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:27,540
because it had last year's colours on

581
00:30:29,449 --> 00:30:30,140
sense.

582
00:30:30,859 --> 00:30:33,920
And somebody tapped Carl on the shoulder

583
00:30:34,069 --> 00:30:36,050
and pointed it out the error

584
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:39,829
and can just

585
00:30:40,439 --> 00:30:42,380
went into just

586
00:30:43,069 --> 00:30:44,420
complete depression.

587
00:30:45,079 --> 00:30:46,219
Well, we've lost now,

588
00:30:46,329 --> 00:30:46,849
you know,

589
00:30:46,949 --> 00:30:48,530
it's, uh it's all over.

590
00:30:49,729 --> 00:30:52,589
And then we had this, um, team.

591
00:30:53,089 --> 00:30:55,670
Do you know, debrief and, um,

592
00:30:56,189 --> 00:30:58,849
Nigel says to the Bosch engineers,

593
00:30:59,219 --> 00:31:02,400
pretty good. E first time out were on pole,

594
00:31:02,859 --> 00:31:07,619
and, uh, the Bosch engineer goes, but of course,

595
00:31:12,060 --> 00:31:12,839
left,

596
00:31:13,140 --> 00:31:15,000
left. Everybody sort of, um,

597
00:31:16,449 --> 00:31:17,060
you

598
00:31:17,189 --> 00:31:17,229
know,

599
00:31:18,500 --> 00:31:23,829
and needless to say, the race started. Mario shot off to the lead,

600
00:31:25,150 --> 00:31:30,449
had an enormous lead, and then about two thirds of the way there,

601
00:31:30,849 --> 00:31:34,130
the Bosch fuel management system melted.

602
00:31:35,199 --> 00:31:38,650
And guess who? Guess who won

603
00:31:39,849 --> 00:31:40,160
Bobby Ray

604
00:31:43,069 --> 00:31:43,510
Bless

605
00:31:46,369 --> 00:31:47,660
anyway, the, um

606
00:31:48,430 --> 00:31:50,099
So I'm back in the shop,

607
00:31:51,250 --> 00:31:54,040
You know, when the car comes back and everything.

608
00:31:54,310 --> 00:31:54,449
Uh,

609
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:59,640
and, um, I go in there on the Wednesday or Thursday

610
00:32:00,609 --> 00:32:02,709
to look at the car

611
00:32:03,030 --> 00:32:04,349
for the next race,

612
00:32:05,660 --> 00:32:06,239
and

613
00:32:06,579 --> 00:32:08,829
it's all been removed from the car.

614
00:32:09,369 --> 00:32:11,119
The mechanics are preparing it,

615
00:32:11,250 --> 00:32:13,040
and there's no Bosch system

616
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:15,680
and the chief mechanic goes, uh oh.

617
00:32:15,810 --> 00:32:19,739
We were told to put it in a cardboard box and leave it in stores.

618
00:32:22,050 --> 00:32:22,510
So

619
00:32:22,619 --> 00:32:24,689
I go and see my boss, a

620
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:26,180
guy called Ray Wardell,

621
00:32:28,109 --> 00:32:29,500
and Ray goes,

622
00:32:29,729 --> 00:32:30,770
Oh, yeah,

623
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:35,660
Carl's decided to scrap it. We're not running it anymore, Tony.

624
00:32:37,989 --> 00:32:39,770
And I thought, Oh, shit. Wow.

625
00:32:40,689 --> 00:32:42,839
That's what I'm employed to do.

626
00:32:44,530 --> 00:32:51,550
Uh, unfortunately, Ray and Nigel immediately got me seconded into the wind tunnel.

627
00:32:52,619 --> 00:32:56,589
And suddenly I was an aerodynamicist,

628
00:32:57,469 --> 00:32:58,329
um,

629
00:32:58,430 --> 00:32:59,449
for the team,

630
00:32:59,729 --> 00:33:03,050
because Carl had done a deal with Cranfield,

631
00:33:04,050 --> 00:33:05,020
um,

632
00:33:05,209 --> 00:33:07,390
to use their rolling road wind tunnel.

633
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:09,660
And, um,

634
00:33:11,270 --> 00:33:12,530
that, uh,

635
00:33:13,170 --> 00:33:15,329
that kind of led to,

636
00:33:15,859 --> 00:33:19,689
you know, my future with my own company because,

637
00:33:20,890 --> 00:33:21,099
uh, I

638
00:33:21,199 --> 00:33:27,619
got to this wind tunnel, and it was one of these old mechanical balances with

639
00:33:27,959 --> 00:33:28,479
weights

640
00:33:28,900 --> 00:33:34,430
that you screwed to get a virtual centre balance going.

641
00:33:35,069 --> 00:33:35,869
Anyway,

642
00:33:37,209 --> 00:33:39,270
an experiment took forever,

643
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:42,250
and we couldn't repeat

644
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:46,829
because, you know, I'd come from the scientific background.

645
00:33:47,270 --> 00:33:49,829
I was super keen on repeats.

646
00:33:50,459 --> 00:33:56,459
Nigel Bennett was as well, and I just couldn't get it to repeat a result, uh,

647
00:33:56,469 --> 00:33:58,910
within an acceptable range.

648
00:34:00,010 --> 00:34:00,709
So

649
00:34:02,130 --> 00:34:05,880
I contacted, uh, Carl has

650
00:34:07,270 --> 00:34:11,290
and you know, when you're young, you can be unbelievably naive.

651
00:34:12,010 --> 00:34:12,030
I.

652
00:34:12,159 --> 00:34:13,010
I,

653
00:34:13,750 --> 00:34:14,438
uh

654
00:34:14,909 --> 00:34:18,469
this wind tunnel you've you've signed a contract for,

655
00:34:18,889 --> 00:34:21,909
uh, it's unusable. We we have to change

656
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:22,949
because

657
00:34:23,139 --> 00:34:27,790
there's no way we can get any proper work done in this place.

658
00:34:29,969 --> 00:34:37,978
And that phone call, uh, resulted in a small mushroom cloud going off in Chicago.

659
00:34:39,879 --> 00:34:40,739
So

660
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:46,540
I was, uh I got an extremely grumpy phone call,

661
00:34:47,728 --> 00:34:49,889
uh, from a guy called Teddy Mayer,

662
00:34:50,949 --> 00:34:56,610
Uh, who was one of the directors who pretty much told me to figure it out.

663
00:34:58,770 --> 00:35:00,320
And, um

664
00:35:02,370 --> 00:35:07,399
uh, So I got on an aeroplane and schemed out, uh, a

665
00:35:07,750 --> 00:35:10,590
complete replacement using electronics

666
00:35:11,270 --> 00:35:12,370
for the wind tunnel.

667
00:35:12,659 --> 00:35:13,169
Uh,

668
00:35:13,389 --> 00:35:14,810
to automate

669
00:35:15,750 --> 00:35:21,889
the data acquisition. I put the car on struts so it could go up and down

670
00:35:22,370 --> 00:35:23,479
and pitch.

671
00:35:24,459 --> 00:35:25,350
Um,

672
00:35:25,850 --> 00:35:26,399
and

673
00:35:26,689 --> 00:35:28,919
I built all that for Lola.

674
00:35:29,969 --> 00:35:32,219
Uh, got it to work.

675
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:33,669
Um,

676
00:35:35,189 --> 00:35:35,969
it was

677
00:35:36,209 --> 00:35:39,010
incredibly hard work,

678
00:35:39,409 --> 00:35:39,840
Uh,

679
00:35:40,860 --> 00:35:44,679
because I didn't understand about electronic noise.

680
00:35:46,389 --> 00:35:47,489
And, uh, it

681
00:35:47,790 --> 00:35:50,810
turns out that a wind tunnel, uh,

682
00:35:51,830 --> 00:35:54,270
the rolling road acts as a Van de

683
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:55,610
Graaff generator

684
00:35:56,550 --> 00:36:00,709
Back in those days, you, If you turned all the lights off,

685
00:36:00,860 --> 00:36:06,409
you could see little bolts of lightning between the model and the car.

686
00:36:08,850 --> 00:36:09,409
And,

687
00:36:10,129 --> 00:36:15,550
you know, people are on top of these problems today. But all that was new.

688
00:36:15,979 --> 00:36:19,590
So we had tremendous difficulties with the electronics.

689
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:20,550
And

690
00:36:20,770 --> 00:36:25,110
fortunately, I remembered a few things from the lectures at MIT.

691
00:36:25,979 --> 00:36:32,239
And, uh, we we we solved all the issues, got it to work,

692
00:36:32,850 --> 00:36:33,639
and then

693
00:36:34,330 --> 00:36:36,540
the productivity gain

694
00:36:36,689 --> 00:36:37,300
was

695
00:36:37,439 --> 00:36:38,510
phenomenal.

696
00:36:39,550 --> 00:36:43,790
Uh, just having the the car on struts

697
00:36:44,260 --> 00:36:47,790
to to move it up so that you could change the model

698
00:36:48,050 --> 00:36:55,489
and then go through a sweep of pitch changes that was just utterly revolutionary.

699
00:36:56,260 --> 00:36:59,639
Um, which is the standard now, right to do it, Because back then,

700
00:36:59,649 --> 00:37:00,780
I guess it it wasn't the

701
00:37:01,340 --> 00:37:01,699
Yeah,

702
00:37:01,870 --> 00:37:05,000
Yeah, No one had done anything like that before.

703
00:37:05,949 --> 00:37:09,209
Uh, so, you know, Lola thought it was great.

704
00:37:10,510 --> 00:37:11,790
And then, uh,

705
00:37:12,620 --> 00:37:16,209
I started to get involved in the testing of the car

706
00:37:17,500 --> 00:37:18,479
and

707
00:37:19,510 --> 00:37:23,449
I. I remember we went out with, uh,

708
00:37:24,489 --> 00:37:27,790
the actually the first exposure to car testing was

709
00:37:27,989 --> 00:37:28,000
a

710
00:37:28,139 --> 00:37:31,020
guy called Brian Henton, a team Ensign.

711
00:37:32,260 --> 00:37:34,669
And there was just a stopwatch.

712
00:37:35,370 --> 00:37:37,870
And what Brian thought of the car

713
00:37:40,350 --> 00:37:42,469
and I realised that,

714
00:37:42,810 --> 00:37:46,080
you know, Brian struck me as a very good talker.

715
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:54,149
and he seemed to talk in incredible detail about every nuance of the car.

716
00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:58,399
But there was absolutely no evidence,

717
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:00,379
you know, there was

718
00:38:00,510 --> 00:38:03,100
nothing but a stopwatch.

719
00:38:05,330 --> 00:38:06,659
And so

720
00:38:07,060 --> 00:38:11,530
when I got to Lola and went testing with Newman/Haas

721
00:38:12,030 --> 00:38:15,330
it was the same. Just a stopwatch. And

722
00:38:15,729 --> 00:38:16,709
instead of Brian Henton

723
00:38:16,810 --> 00:38:18,399
and Mario Andretti,

724
00:38:19,419 --> 00:38:22,850
uh, Mario was actually, I thought

725
00:38:23,139 --> 00:38:24,760
much more believable,

726
00:38:25,479 --> 00:38:26,840
you know, he was

727
00:38:26,949 --> 00:38:28,439
less expansive.

728
00:38:29,790 --> 00:38:30,449
Um,

729
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:32,639
but, um,

730
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:37,830
you know, then I suggested to my immediate boss, Ray Wardell,

731
00:38:38,030 --> 00:38:39,399
who was the team manager.

732
00:38:39,909 --> 00:38:40,379
Look,

733
00:38:40,580 --> 00:38:43,820
the way you test these cars is just, uh, nuts.

734
00:38:44,580 --> 00:38:49,429
Uh, i'll build some electronics so I can record what goes on,

735
00:38:50,570 --> 00:38:51,820
and Ray went

736
00:38:53,010 --> 00:38:54,030
Wow.

737
00:38:55,580 --> 00:38:59,189
Uh, and Nigel was very, very enthused by the idea.

738
00:39:00,219 --> 00:39:01,020
Um

739
00:39:01,620 --> 00:39:05,330
and so I built it all on my desk at Newman

740
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:06,750
House. I built a

741
00:39:07,330 --> 00:39:09,840
dashboard and a data logger,

742
00:39:11,429 --> 00:39:14,250
uh, that downloaded to

743
00:39:14,540 --> 00:39:18,590
one of the, uh, very, very first

744
00:39:19,340 --> 00:39:21,280
lable computers.

745
00:39:22,419 --> 00:39:22,919
Oh,

746
00:39:24,669 --> 00:39:27,520
they were, like, the size of a suitcase. Literally.

747
00:39:28,580 --> 00:39:29,040
Uh,

748
00:39:30,129 --> 00:39:31,510
and, um,

749
00:39:33,050 --> 00:39:34,370
I we we

750
00:39:34,770 --> 00:39:40,159
we we we tried it all. And it actually worked amazingly,

751
00:39:40,959 --> 00:39:41,739
Um,

752
00:39:41,979 --> 00:39:44,379
and then, uh, Ray was very,

753
00:39:44,649 --> 00:39:48,139
very pleased and got me to show it to Carl Haas

754
00:39:49,389 --> 00:39:50,199
and co

755
00:39:50,350 --> 00:39:50,659
hats

756
00:39:51,929 --> 00:39:53,060
goes,

757
00:39:53,469 --> 00:39:55,389
How much did this cost? Tony

758
00:39:56,179 --> 00:40:02,719
and I said, Oh, Ray gave me a budget of $7000 and I did it for 7200

759
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:05,139
you know, So a bit of an overrun

760
00:40:06,110 --> 00:40:09,820
and Carl went absolutely berserk.

761
00:40:10,939 --> 00:40:11,770
Uh,

762
00:40:13,300 --> 00:40:15,320
why did you allow this, Ray?

763
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:21,300
It's my money. Why are we wasting on on on on this kind of stuff?

764
00:40:21,310 --> 00:40:26,530
It's crazy, You know, you should come to me. We don't want this kind of stuff,

765
00:40:26,959 --> 00:40:30,780
you know? And he he ranted. He absolutely ranted.

766
00:40:31,580 --> 00:40:36,320
And I came away, you know, just absolutely deflated.

767
00:40:37,020 --> 00:40:40,290
Ray was red faced with rage,

768
00:40:41,500 --> 00:40:47,479
and it's quite a long story. But six weeks later, we'd all agreed to resign

769
00:40:48,399 --> 00:40:50,030
and start a new company.

770
00:40:51,159 --> 00:40:52,219
Um,

771
00:40:52,679 --> 00:40:54,179
and, uh,

772
00:40:55,850 --> 00:41:00,030
it's a bit complicated, but eventually Ray said, right, Tony,

773
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:02,350
you are starting your own company.

774
00:41:03,699 --> 00:41:05,439
You've got to

775
00:41:05,649 --> 00:41:08,010
you've got to make wind tunnel systems

776
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:10,000
like you did for Lola,

777
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:11,790
but make it much better,

778
00:41:12,580 --> 00:41:14,639
and then you can do a car system.

779
00:41:15,530 --> 00:41:17,979
And so that was the start of my own company.

780
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:21,340
It was never really my own house. This

781
00:41:22,739 --> 00:41:24,110
so this was pie.

782
00:41:24,770 --> 00:41:26,280
Pirate research. Was that the name?

783
00:41:27,050 --> 00:41:27,320
Yeah.

784
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:31,389
OK, so that how did did you then move back to the UK for that?

785
00:41:31,399 --> 00:41:33,989
Or were you still jumping between the US and the UK?

786
00:41:34,290 --> 00:41:36,209
So I resigned from human Earth,

787
00:41:37,199 --> 00:41:43,270
Um, went back to the UK, but still had a very good relationship with Lola.

788
00:41:44,350 --> 00:41:45,290
Um,

789
00:41:45,820 --> 00:41:49,000
And then, um,

790
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:51,520
Ray

791
00:41:51,820 --> 00:41:55,360
and Nigel ended up with Team Penske,

792
00:41:57,780 --> 00:41:58,600
and

793
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:00,030
they

794
00:42:01,020 --> 00:42:02,330
they just said, Look,

795
00:42:02,750 --> 00:42:04,919
designing new wind tunnel system

796
00:42:05,250 --> 00:42:07,040
that you're going to sell to everybody.

797
00:42:07,870 --> 00:42:11,929
And then they invited me down to Penske cars,

798
00:42:12,639 --> 00:42:16,020
and I gave this sort of presentation

799
00:42:17,070 --> 00:42:18,530
to, um,

800
00:42:19,669 --> 00:42:23,649
actually to Teddy Mayer, who was then the chief of, um

801
00:42:23,870 --> 00:42:25,129
Penske cars.

802
00:42:26,479 --> 00:42:28,419
And, um

803
00:42:29,540 --> 00:42:37,120
apparently, when they asked me how much I I said, Oh, it's 6 $60,000.

804
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:43,409
And apparently I looked at the carpet and went red in embarrassment.

805
00:42:45,530 --> 00:42:46,129
Um,

806
00:42:46,649 --> 00:42:51,800
I. I heard this years, decades later that they sent me out the room,

807
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:56,399
uh, laugh to themselves, uh,

808
00:42:57,919 --> 00:43:01,350
that he'll be back for at least double that,

809
00:43:01,489 --> 00:43:04,669
but no worry. Uh, he he can do it.

810
00:43:05,620 --> 00:43:06,590
Um,

811
00:43:07,050 --> 00:43:10,270
and then they, uh they sort of, uh,

812
00:43:11,110 --> 00:43:14,370
uh had a debate Whether they should toy with me

813
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:15,969
or just say

814
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:22,330
and so they Anyway, I got the contract,

815
00:43:23,169 --> 00:43:26,580
and actually, I didn't go back and ask for more money,

816
00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:29,540
But I definitely asked for more time.

817
00:43:30,379 --> 00:43:31,000
Um,

818
00:43:33,649 --> 00:43:35,229
project planning,

819
00:43:35,850 --> 00:43:36,310
uh,

820
00:43:37,469 --> 00:43:39,280
wasn't his lamentable.

821
00:43:40,810 --> 00:43:41,030
Yeah,

822
00:43:42,139 --> 00:43:42,929
Yeah, I won.

823
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:43,090
I

824
00:43:43,300 --> 00:43:44,149
won comment on that.

825
00:43:47,290 --> 00:43:50,709
Always too ambitious. Um, but anyway, we delivered

826
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:55,199
the wind tunnel system. I employed some people,

827
00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:58,989
uh, some great people, actually. And, um,

828
00:44:00,159 --> 00:44:04,270
we we did that. And then Ray said right now, uh,

829
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:09,620
why don't you build a really nice, uh, instrumentation system

830
00:44:09,969 --> 00:44:11,979
for an IndyCar,

831
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:14,969
because they'll they'll all buy it. Tony.

832
00:44:15,860 --> 00:44:18,800
So I did that. We did a deal with Lola.

833
00:44:20,250 --> 00:44:21,629
Uh, that,

834
00:44:21,820 --> 00:44:23,870
as it happens, was a year late.

835
00:44:24,939 --> 00:44:25,850
Um,

836
00:44:26,199 --> 00:44:27,300
and,

837
00:44:28,229 --> 00:44:31,010
uh, just about worked.

838
00:44:32,199 --> 00:44:33,419
Um,

839
00:44:34,389 --> 00:44:36,169
we we probably worked

840
00:44:37,020 --> 00:44:39,560
70% of the time

841
00:44:39,929 --> 00:44:43,120
and crashed the other 30%

842
00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:46,040
but fortunately,

843
00:44:46,260 --> 00:44:48,989
the information it gave the customers,

844
00:44:50,010 --> 00:44:54,179
uh, it it just it found the fastest lap

845
00:44:55,250 --> 00:44:59,870
and gave a printout of boost speed.

846
00:45:00,879 --> 00:45:01,919
R, PM.

847
00:45:03,260 --> 00:45:04,320
I think that was it.

848
00:45:05,340 --> 00:45:12,229
And then it had a rev counter and alarms. If the oil pressure went or

849
00:45:12,399 --> 00:45:13,320
temperature

850
00:45:14,489 --> 00:45:17,540
and the, um,

851
00:45:18,379 --> 00:45:21,399
the customers absolutely loved it

852
00:45:22,260 --> 00:45:22,899
uh,

853
00:45:23,399 --> 00:45:27,959
and I probably realised how much they loved it by experience,

854
00:45:27,969 --> 00:45:29,879
their emotion when it went wrong.

855
00:45:31,399 --> 00:45:31,419
Yeah,

856
00:45:34,290 --> 00:45:37,580
like thrusting me against the wall.

857
00:45:37,709 --> 00:45:38,219
You've got to go

858
00:45:42,770 --> 00:45:45,979
over the next three years or so,

859
00:45:46,439 --> 00:45:48,820
Every year we came out with better and better

860
00:45:48,959 --> 00:45:49,879
products,

861
00:45:50,100 --> 00:45:53,120
they slowly became more and more reliable.

862
00:45:54,090 --> 00:45:58,100
Um, we went away from printers to, uh,

863
00:45:58,270 --> 00:46:01,340
computers. Then laptops came along.

864
00:46:02,100 --> 00:46:03,709
And, um,

865
00:46:04,199 --> 00:46:06,620
you know, within five years, we were

866
00:46:06,830 --> 00:46:11,239
pretty much the dominant force in race car electronics,

867
00:46:12,350 --> 00:46:14,330
which was pretty nice.

868
00:46:15,300 --> 00:46:16,600
And then, um,

869
00:46:16,959 --> 00:46:20,320
I was well aware that motor racing was feast famine.

870
00:46:21,649 --> 00:46:24,750
And, you know, I was very conscious that

871
00:46:24,889 --> 00:46:25,909
we had

872
00:46:26,429 --> 00:46:27,780
the whole field,

873
00:46:28,479 --> 00:46:30,850
uh, in Indy car,

874
00:46:31,370 --> 00:46:36,310
and we were beginning to get the whole field in places like Formula Three.

875
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:39,020
We were making inroads into Formula One.

876
00:46:39,969 --> 00:46:40,929
Um,

877
00:46:41,790 --> 00:46:45,149
and I was very nervous about the business because I thought

878
00:46:45,790 --> 00:46:46,649
Bosch

879
00:46:47,139 --> 00:46:50,879
or the new McLaren Electronics company TAG,

880
00:46:51,649 --> 00:46:53,750
uh, they were all subsidised,

881
00:46:54,379 --> 00:46:58,070
and I felt that they could blow us away overnight.

882
00:46:58,860 --> 00:47:02,909
So I went to Roger Penske to thank him for his custom,

883
00:47:03,949 --> 00:47:09,489
and, uh, I thought we I thought I was going to get my ears chewed off

884
00:47:10,090 --> 00:47:13,709
because we'd had more than a few reliability problems with Penske.

885
00:47:15,030 --> 00:47:17,439
And instead he was, uh,

886
00:47:17,889 --> 00:47:19,929
bouncing up and down saying,

887
00:47:20,790 --> 00:47:26,370
Oh, you've you've revolutionised the way we work, you know, it's fantastic.

888
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:29,500
Hey, you got to come down to

889
00:47:29,750 --> 00:47:33,040
this new company I've bought called Detroit Diesel

890
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:35,719
and and do stuff with them.

891
00:47:36,510 --> 00:47:37,379
So I

892
00:47:38,439 --> 00:47:43,659
I turned up at Detroit Diesel. They made, uh, engines for Lorries,

893
00:47:44,699 --> 00:47:46,199
and, um,

894
00:47:46,909 --> 00:47:48,560
uh,

895
00:47:49,090 --> 00:47:54,120
they needed a new electronic controller for the diesel Lorries.

896
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:55,739
And

897
00:47:55,989 --> 00:48:00,439
so we We gave a proposal to Roger Penske,

898
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:03,820
and I remember it was for

899
00:48:04,899 --> 00:48:07,310
$2.2 million I think,

900
00:48:08,189 --> 00:48:12,449
and I think our turnover was $1 million at the time.

901
00:48:13,330 --> 00:48:13,929
So this was

902
00:48:14,439 --> 00:48:16,419
so it was really big.

903
00:48:16,629 --> 00:48:17,860
And, um,

904
00:48:19,070 --> 00:48:24,050
uh, they asked lots of questions. Quite tough. But at the end,

905
00:48:24,340 --> 00:48:26,479
I remember my last slide.

906
00:48:26,629 --> 00:48:29,689
I think in those days they were acetates rather than

907
00:48:29,870 --> 00:48:30,290
power.

908
00:48:31,750 --> 00:48:35,629
Uh, but anyway, uh, the last one said, Let's go.

909
00:48:36,590 --> 00:48:40,780
And Roger who's, you know, pretty gung ho sort of bloke,

910
00:48:41,149 --> 00:48:42,050
uh,

911
00:48:42,270 --> 00:48:47,489
once they'd gone through questions, just leaned back on his chair and said,

912
00:48:47,669 --> 00:48:49,129
Yep, let's go.

913
00:48:49,780 --> 00:48:50,260
And,

914
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:54,810
uh, suddenly we're in. We were in automotive.

915
00:48:55,689 --> 00:49:00,669
And, uh, it turned out that that engine controller, um,

916
00:49:01,830 --> 00:49:02,949
in the end, uh,

917
00:49:04,189 --> 00:49:09,010
powered about one in 41 in three trucks in North America.

918
00:49:09,820 --> 00:49:10,540
So

919
00:49:10,820 --> 00:49:11,729
you know it.

920
00:49:12,530 --> 00:49:17,090
It really sort of parachuted us into the serious world of

921
00:49:17,689 --> 00:49:19,790
of automotive electronics.

922
00:49:20,860 --> 00:49:21,709
Um,

923
00:49:22,179 --> 00:49:25,810
and that led to Ford taking an interest.

924
00:49:26,489 --> 00:49:32,169
We became Ford's, um, preferred supplier for safety, Critical code.

925
00:49:33,489 --> 00:49:38,949
And then, um, that led to Ford buying us out in 1999.

926
00:49:39,129 --> 00:49:39,860
So, uh,

927
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:42,449
you know, it's all sort of

928
00:49:43,639 --> 00:49:45,820
Everything's connected to everything.

929
00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:47,169
Um,

930
00:49:47,310 --> 00:49:51,129
but that was a so that was quite a big rise then from going

931
00:49:51,639 --> 00:49:56,850
to sort of embarrassingly asking for 60 K to being bought out by one of the

932
00:49:57,669 --> 00:49:57,860
large

933
00:49:58,050 --> 00:50:01,360
automotive companies. That's kind of quite a right.

934
00:50:01,939 --> 00:50:04,550
Yeah, well, it did take 12 years. Um

935
00:50:06,610 --> 00:50:11,060
and, uh, you know, I did. I did things. Uh, like, uh,

936
00:50:11,340 --> 00:50:14,550
I employed this guy from the nuclear industry

937
00:50:15,020 --> 00:50:15,810
to write

938
00:50:16,060 --> 00:50:18,830
leader safety, critical, embedded code.

939
00:50:19,729 --> 00:50:20,669
Uh,

940
00:50:20,860 --> 00:50:25,879
and, you know, that was quite a brave move at the time. Uh, especially as his

941
00:50:26,139 --> 00:50:29,080
methods were so pedantic

942
00:50:29,489 --> 00:50:30,870
compared to

943
00:50:31,179 --> 00:50:32,709
you know, what we were used to,

944
00:50:33,729 --> 00:50:34,739
um

945
00:50:35,379 --> 00:50:43,469
And you know, I got some managers in who understood things like quality.

946
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:44,300
Uh,

947
00:50:44,350 --> 00:50:47,040
and then we split the company because the

948
00:50:47,050 --> 00:50:51,020
motor racing people didn't sit well with the,

949
00:50:51,030 --> 00:50:51,100
um,

950
00:50:52,219 --> 00:50:53,870
with the automotive people.

951
00:50:55,449 --> 00:50:59,439
Really? Because the automotive people insisted on process.

952
00:51:00,510 --> 00:51:03,689
Whereas, you know what it's like with motor races?

953
00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:05,929
Let's go. And

954
00:51:06,090 --> 00:51:06,229
they

955
00:51:07,409 --> 00:51:10,530
Yeah, they think process is a dirty word.

956
00:51:12,469 --> 00:51:12,550
Yes.

957
00:51:13,949 --> 00:51:18,510
So, what happened then? So you sold it to Ford. What was the next thing

958
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:19,810
it was?

959
00:51:20,489 --> 00:51:23,370
You know, that was kind of an incredible year, because

960
00:51:24,030 --> 00:51:26,850
we we were pretty well established by then.

961
00:51:27,679 --> 00:51:32,030
Uh, we were supplying lots of Formula One teams with telemetry

962
00:51:32,209 --> 00:51:33,739
and wind tunnel stuff.

963
00:51:34,649 --> 00:51:37,750
Um, huge presence in motor racing

964
00:51:37,899 --> 00:51:38,810
And this,

965
00:51:38,929 --> 00:51:39,659
um,

966
00:51:40,629 --> 00:51:43,610
fast establishing relationship with Ford.

967
00:51:45,550 --> 00:51:46,850
And then, um

968
00:51:47,860 --> 00:51:48,350
uh,

969
00:51:49,429 --> 00:51:49,699
mhm.

970
00:51:50,500 --> 00:51:53,520
Stewart Grand Prix got bought out by Ford.

971
00:51:55,040 --> 00:51:57,590
Ford were, you know, uh,

972
00:51:58,030 --> 00:52:00,909
sort of committed to a Formula One campaign.

973
00:52:02,149 --> 00:52:03,000
Um,

974
00:52:03,889 --> 00:52:04,820
and

975
00:52:05,739 --> 00:52:08,520
they got from two sides.

976
00:52:09,580 --> 00:52:10,429
Pie

977
00:52:10,929 --> 00:52:12,989
from the, um

978
00:52:14,459 --> 00:52:17,159
uh, engine controls people,

979
00:52:17,739 --> 00:52:20,969
uh, within the team. They said, Oh, you know,

980
00:52:21,580 --> 00:52:24,360
pie are pretty pretty good at that stuff now,

981
00:52:25,399 --> 00:52:27,840
um, and then from

982
00:52:27,959 --> 00:52:30,919
Ford's electronics company, who are called Visteon.

983
00:52:32,419 --> 00:52:34,290
Uh, they were hearing.

984
00:52:34,919 --> 00:52:35,800
Uh,

985
00:52:36,040 --> 00:52:39,860
we we absolutely rely on them for,

986
00:52:40,149 --> 00:52:40,610
uh,

987
00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:42,520
uh, uh. Some of our code

988
00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:44,709
and

989
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:46,280
Visteon

990
00:52:46,620 --> 00:52:50,270
thought it was unsustainable to have a subcontract

991
00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:52,389
to do something that was so critical.

992
00:52:53,389 --> 00:52:54,159
Um,

993
00:52:54,260 --> 00:52:59,070
you know, again, you have to go back. In the past, electronics and software was

994
00:52:59,250 --> 00:53:00,169
just

995
00:53:00,409 --> 00:53:02,449
startling everybody

996
00:53:02,870 --> 00:53:03,850
every year.

997
00:53:04,820 --> 00:53:05,639
Um

998
00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:10,000
and so Ford was sort of who we got to get into this stuff.

999
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:17,179
Uh, and then the the Formula One team Jaguar was Oh, we need an electronics partner.

1000
00:53:18,040 --> 00:53:18,979
And

1001
00:53:19,260 --> 00:53:23,620
one day this guy called, uh, George Joseph turned up.

1002
00:53:24,570 --> 00:53:27,229
We weren't real sure why he'd come.

1003
00:53:28,229 --> 00:53:30,639
And he came into the office,

1004
00:53:31,449 --> 00:53:35,550
unclicked his briefcase and turned around and said,

1005
00:53:35,909 --> 00:53:38,629
Ford have decided to buy your company.

1006
00:53:42,500 --> 00:53:44,610
And, uh, I sort of, uh,

1007
00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:47,800
wasn't it a suitcase full of cash? Was it?

1008
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:50,000
No. No. Uh,

1009
00:53:51,020 --> 00:53:51,050
well,

1010
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:54,040
that that came later, I guess.

1011
00:53:55,760 --> 00:53:56,620
But, um,

1012
00:53:57,399 --> 00:53:59,500
I kind of remember saying,

1013
00:54:00,620 --> 00:54:01,290
Oh,

1014
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:02,860
I'm not sure that

1015
00:54:03,110 --> 00:54:05,000
the company is for sale, you know,

1016
00:54:05,770 --> 00:54:11,560
um, but maybe, you know, we could forge a nice partnership, uh, with the Formula One,

1017
00:54:11,820 --> 00:54:14,719
because Formula One was going ballistic.

1018
00:54:14,929 --> 00:54:17,189
Uh, and the cost of development

1019
00:54:17,629 --> 00:54:19,830
was way beyond our means.

1020
00:54:20,620 --> 00:54:26,439
You know, every year you needed a major major development project, and you had to

1021
00:54:26,580 --> 00:54:28,000
bet the farm on it,

1022
00:54:28,610 --> 00:54:31,219
and I knew that was unsustainable.

1023
00:54:31,879 --> 00:54:32,959
Um, but

1024
00:54:33,199 --> 00:54:37,989
George Joseph made it pretty clear that Ford wanted to buy us out.

1025
00:54:38,659 --> 00:54:42,209
And some of the other directors who were in the room sort of

1026
00:54:42,590 --> 00:54:44,219
muscled me out the room

1027
00:54:44,379 --> 00:54:45,070
and said, Oh,

1028
00:54:45,229 --> 00:54:45,459
it's very

1029
00:54:49,149 --> 00:54:49,159
I

1030
00:54:50,620 --> 00:54:53,290
don't know. Four months later, they bought us out.

1031
00:54:54,330 --> 00:54:55,189
Um,

1032
00:54:55,739 --> 00:54:59,760
and I was the majority shareholder, so it was very good for me.

1033
00:55:01,219 --> 00:55:01,689
Um,

1034
00:55:03,070 --> 00:55:04,189
and then, um,

1035
00:55:05,699 --> 00:55:07,590
I quite liked working for Ford.

1036
00:55:08,739 --> 00:55:09,639
Um,

1037
00:55:10,030 --> 00:55:11,320
so, uh,

1038
00:55:12,139 --> 00:55:13,000
I sort of

1039
00:55:13,679 --> 00:55:18,969
jogged around running pie, and then they asked me to get involved

1040
00:55:19,389 --> 00:55:20,860
with Jaguar.

1041
00:55:21,889 --> 00:55:22,629
Uh,

1042
00:55:22,860 --> 00:55:24,629
and then Nicky Lauder

1043
00:55:24,790 --> 00:55:27,030
contacted me and said,

1044
00:55:28,629 --> 00:55:28,649
uh,

1045
00:55:28,750 --> 00:55:34,689
we we we need somebody to sort our aerodynamics out. Could you have a look at it?

1046
00:55:34,949 --> 00:55:35,649
So

1047
00:55:35,899 --> 00:55:38,169
I did a big project

1048
00:55:38,870 --> 00:55:43,120
with a very good guy who used to be a

1049
00:55:43,129 --> 00:55:46,010
management consultant and was used to that sort of thing.

1050
00:55:47,070 --> 00:55:48,939
And the two of us are

1051
00:55:49,590 --> 00:55:54,250
really restructured the, uh, aero department completely,

1052
00:55:55,219 --> 00:55:56,000
um,

1053
00:55:56,520 --> 00:56:00,610
because it it evolved into something that was essentially dysfunctional,

1054
00:56:01,330 --> 00:56:04,739
wasn't kind of anybody's fault. It was just that

1055
00:56:05,469 --> 00:56:06,050
they

1056
00:56:06,169 --> 00:56:11,050
they'd made micro decisions without stepping back and looking at the big picture

1057
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:14,409
just for people listening. So

1058
00:56:14,679 --> 00:56:16,610
when you say the Jaguar team,

1059
00:56:16,780 --> 00:56:19,969
um, where was that based then? Was that

1060
00:56:20,370 --> 00:56:21,209
Milton Keynes

1061
00:56:21,669 --> 00:56:21,899
back

1062
00:56:22,010 --> 00:56:22,850
then, where was

1063
00:56:23,659 --> 00:56:24,050
OK

1064
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:25,770
and, um,

1065
00:56:26,139 --> 00:56:29,610
owned by Ford? Because Ford owned, uh,

1066
00:56:30,439 --> 00:56:33,610
Jaguar and Volvo and Aston Martin at the time.

1067
00:56:34,739 --> 00:56:38,959
And, uh, there was a for director

1068
00:56:39,090 --> 00:56:41,229
who was poached from BMW

1069
00:56:41,580 --> 00:56:42,459
called Wolfgang

1070
00:56:42,739 --> 00:56:43,219
Reitzle.

1071
00:56:44,199 --> 00:56:47,899
And it was actually Wolfgang who suggested to Nicky that, uh,

1072
00:56:48,830 --> 00:56:51,129
I should sort of help him.

1073
00:56:52,149 --> 00:56:55,979
And the aerodynamic stuff worked really well. Really Well,

1074
00:56:56,169 --> 00:56:56,780
um,

1075
00:56:58,149 --> 00:56:59,889
and, uh,

1076
00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:02,739
the

1077
00:57:02,840 --> 00:57:05,899
the success of that led to,

1078
00:57:06,159 --> 00:57:08,209
uh, writing a report

1079
00:57:08,850 --> 00:57:10,310
on how to

1080
00:57:12,229 --> 00:57:13,429
better manage

1081
00:57:14,219 --> 00:57:15,479
the whole team.

1082
00:57:17,189 --> 00:57:17,909
And,

1083
00:57:18,070 --> 00:57:18,530
uh,

1084
00:57:18,659 --> 00:57:20,669
I wrote this and put,

1085
00:57:21,199 --> 00:57:23,570
you know, a really big effort into it.

1086
00:57:25,510 --> 00:57:28,399
And then I presented it to Nicky

1087
00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:29,290
Lauder

1088
00:57:31,229 --> 00:57:32,649
and Gunther Steiner.

1089
00:57:34,500 --> 00:57:35,520
And

1090
00:57:36,050 --> 00:57:39,760
unfortunately, I think they read it as

1091
00:57:39,989 --> 00:57:41,840
kind of personal criticism

1092
00:57:42,780 --> 00:57:44,520
rather than, um,

1093
00:57:44,659 --> 00:57:46,520
you know, something constructive,

1094
00:57:47,340 --> 00:57:47,729
which,

1095
00:57:48,610 --> 00:57:50,090
which really wasn't

1096
00:57:50,520 --> 00:57:51,870
wasn't the intention.

1097
00:57:52,600 --> 00:57:53,699
Um,

1098
00:57:55,399 --> 00:57:56,060
and

1099
00:57:58,100 --> 00:58:00,120
it's quite a long story,

1100
00:58:00,340 --> 00:58:00,760
but

1101
00:58:01,969 --> 00:58:04,260
they really disliked it

1102
00:58:04,760 --> 00:58:06,510
really disliked it.

1103
00:58:07,879 --> 00:58:09,260
And, um,

1104
00:58:10,139 --> 00:58:12,719
there was a new Ford director

1105
00:58:13,219 --> 00:58:14,949
Wolfgang had left a

1106
00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:18,000
guy called Richard Parry. Jones came along

1107
00:58:19,899 --> 00:58:21,419
and Richard read it.

1108
00:58:21,929 --> 00:58:24,959
And, um, Richard really liked it.

1109
00:58:26,090 --> 00:58:26,850
Um,

1110
00:58:28,010 --> 00:58:29,709
And then, um,

1111
00:58:30,520 --> 00:58:31,340
Nicky,

1112
00:58:31,840 --> 00:58:32,179
uh,

1113
00:58:33,500 --> 00:58:35,239
basically fired me.

1114
00:58:36,540 --> 00:58:37,889
Um wow.

1115
00:58:38,830 --> 00:58:40,340
But Richard

1116
00:58:40,679 --> 00:58:41,889
said,

1117
00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:45,219
well, he can't fire you because you work for Ford.

1118
00:58:46,300 --> 00:58:48,709
Um, so you work information

1119
00:58:48,879 --> 00:58:48,899
now?

1120
00:58:51,020 --> 00:58:51,989
Um,

1121
00:58:52,699 --> 00:58:54,280
And then, um,

1122
00:58:54,899 --> 00:58:57,840
Richard did his own deep dive into Jaguar

1123
00:58:59,370 --> 00:59:02,070
and realised that, um,

1124
00:59:03,209 --> 00:59:08,270
there was just no, uh, manage managerial discipline there.

1125
00:59:09,199 --> 00:59:10,260
And they Yeah,

1126
00:59:11,709 --> 00:59:15,290
it it it had gone to motor racing.

1127
00:59:15,909 --> 00:59:17,290
It was kind of

1128
00:59:17,850 --> 00:59:20,370
if we can conceive it, we should do it.

1129
00:59:21,689 --> 00:59:22,070
Uh,

1130
00:59:22,850 --> 00:59:23,550
you know,

1131
00:59:24,860 --> 00:59:29,389
and the only demand from Ford was we need more money.

1132
00:59:30,750 --> 00:59:31,610
Um,

1133
00:59:32,169 --> 00:59:34,149
and Nicky,

1134
00:59:34,379 --> 00:59:39,870
who had a great reputation that Nicky could be very off the wall,

1135
00:59:41,010 --> 00:59:42,129
and

1136
00:59:42,350 --> 00:59:43,580
you know his idea.

1137
00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:44,830
So what was his

1138
00:59:45,830 --> 00:59:48,080
What was his position at the team then? Then

1139
00:59:48,729 --> 00:59:49,209
he was

1140
00:59:49,669 --> 00:59:49,830
He

1141
00:59:50,250 --> 00:59:50,469
was

1142
00:59:50,679 --> 00:59:51,260
principal at

1143
00:59:51,449 --> 00:59:51,659
the time.

1144
00:59:52,100 --> 00:59:52,419
He was the

1145
00:59:52,550 --> 00:59:52,669
big

1146
00:59:53,879 --> 00:59:54,219
Yeah.

1147
00:59:54,550 --> 00:59:54,949
Yeah,

1148
00:59:57,149 --> 01:00:01,409
and Nicky just didn't get how complicated,

1149
01:00:01,830 --> 01:00:05,209
uh, Formula One cars had become.

1150
01:00:05,879 --> 01:00:09,939
And he he didn't get that. You can't change the real wing

1151
01:00:10,219 --> 01:00:11,379
without changing

1152
01:00:11,540 --> 01:00:13,139
all the aerodynamics.

1153
01:00:13,959 --> 01:00:17,000
You know, you'd understand that, But Nicky didn't,

1154
01:00:18,070 --> 01:00:18,949
um

1155
01:00:19,979 --> 01:00:20,719
and

1156
01:00:21,879 --> 01:00:26,139
there was this sort of silver bullet mentality.

1157
01:00:27,080 --> 01:00:27,810
You know,

1158
01:00:28,169 --> 01:00:28,659
if

1159
01:00:29,360 --> 01:00:35,300
if we could do this or if we could have the Ferrari front wing or the McLaren rear wing,

1160
01:00:35,340 --> 01:00:35,350
a

1161
01:00:35,939 --> 01:00:38,500
magic wand would be waved.

1162
01:00:39,879 --> 01:00:40,580
And,

1163
01:00:41,389 --> 01:00:43,020
uh, you know,

1164
01:00:43,169 --> 01:00:43,189
I

1165
01:00:44,080 --> 01:00:45,459
was much more of this.

1166
01:00:46,469 --> 01:00:50,239
The thought that you needed systems and structure

1167
01:00:50,689 --> 01:00:52,010
to make things work,

1168
01:00:52,620 --> 01:00:55,689
which, you know, to be honest, was not my

1169
01:00:57,070 --> 01:00:58,959
my natural environment.

1170
01:00:59,879 --> 01:01:03,169
Uh, you know, I'm a bit more of a racer at heart,

1171
01:01:04,729 --> 01:01:05,340
but I,

1172
01:01:05,560 --> 01:01:07,669
I absolutely realised that

1173
01:01:07,790 --> 01:01:10,760
that's what they needed because it was a big organisation.

1174
01:01:10,770 --> 01:01:14,489
You know, it wasn't like 10 people in a garage making something,

1175
01:01:14,879 --> 01:01:16,760
you know, four or 500 people.

1176
01:01:17,639 --> 01:01:18,500
Um,

1177
01:01:18,989 --> 01:01:20,699
and, uh,

1178
01:01:20,709 --> 01:01:26,699
I'd come across this absolutely brilliant man manager called David pitch forth

1179
01:01:27,969 --> 01:01:29,469
and, um,

1180
01:01:29,889 --> 01:01:30,939
David,

1181
01:01:31,129 --> 01:01:31,550
uh,

1182
01:01:32,330 --> 01:01:36,659
completely enamoured Richard Perry Jones

1183
01:01:37,449 --> 01:01:39,340
with his, um,

1184
01:01:40,040 --> 01:01:40,620
you know,

1185
01:01:40,790 --> 01:01:43,379
zeal for good management.

1186
01:01:45,600 --> 01:01:50,020
And then Richard suddenly took the decision to,

1187
01:01:51,229 --> 01:01:53,010
uh, fire Nicky

1188
01:01:53,370 --> 01:01:54,489
and, um,

1189
01:01:54,909 --> 01:01:57,649
bring Dave and I in to run the company,

1190
01:01:58,679 --> 01:02:00,699
Uh, and to run cosworth.

1191
01:02:01,000 --> 01:02:01,629
Um,

1192
01:02:02,909 --> 01:02:03,409
so

1193
01:02:03,550 --> 01:02:08,070
that was That was a bold move, right? I guess for him to do that

1194
01:02:08,739 --> 01:02:14,100
to Nicky, I guess at the time must have sent sort of reverberations around the

1195
01:02:14,300 --> 01:02:15,149
very much so,

1196
01:02:16,129 --> 01:02:18,860
you know, because Nicky was a big hero to people.

1197
01:02:19,909 --> 01:02:21,000
And, um,

1198
01:02:21,270 --> 01:02:22,520
Nicky had some

1199
01:02:23,229 --> 01:02:24,810
fine attributes,

1200
01:02:26,570 --> 01:02:30,889
but he was really mu much more an an entrepreneur

1201
01:02:31,469 --> 01:02:34,030
than any kind of CEO.

1202
01:02:35,080 --> 01:02:36,179
You know, he

1203
01:02:36,370 --> 01:02:40,580
he just wanted the the big picture, the big idea.

1204
01:02:41,370 --> 01:02:43,840
Um, whereas Parry Jones

1205
01:02:43,979 --> 01:02:45,739
totally understood

1206
01:02:46,100 --> 01:02:49,179
the complexity of making a good machine,

1207
01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:56,300
and so we were much more aligned, but, yeah, it caused a lot of controversy.

1208
01:02:57,250 --> 01:02:59,270
And, um, it wasn't

1209
01:03:00,010 --> 01:03:01,790
sort of helped by

1210
01:03:02,149 --> 01:03:05,550
the the sort of whisper that Ford's,

1211
01:03:06,600 --> 01:03:09,699
uh, trading was going downhill

1212
01:03:10,229 --> 01:03:14,590
and that Formula One was an expensive trinket.

1213
01:03:15,989 --> 01:03:18,840
So it was a poison chalice as a job.

1214
01:03:19,719 --> 01:03:20,399
And,

1215
01:03:21,110 --> 01:03:23,379
you know, if I look back,

1216
01:03:23,840 --> 01:03:27,379
I did did make some, um, some

1217
01:03:27,840 --> 01:03:29,340
big mistakes. Really?

1218
01:03:30,229 --> 01:03:30,929
Um,

1219
01:03:31,159 --> 01:03:33,610
one of one mistake was, uh

1220
01:03:35,310 --> 01:03:38,530
I found Jackie Stewart very difficult as a character.

1221
01:03:39,360 --> 01:03:40,290
Um,

1222
01:03:40,870 --> 01:03:46,820
because he he was de facto smartest on any given subject.

1223
01:03:47,899 --> 01:03:51,070
You know, he was three times world champion,

1224
01:03:51,540 --> 01:03:55,040
so he was expert absolutely everything.

1225
01:03:56,709 --> 01:03:57,370
And

1226
01:03:58,479 --> 01:04:02,820
actually, he was really, really good with sponsors,

1227
01:04:04,260 --> 01:04:05,479
and, uh,

1228
01:04:05,709 --> 01:04:06,520
I.

1229
01:04:06,820 --> 01:04:11,000
I failed to fully realise that,

1230
01:04:11,209 --> 01:04:11,629
uh,

1231
01:04:12,050 --> 01:04:14,800
you just had to take the rough with the smooth with Jackie.

1232
01:04:15,669 --> 01:04:17,139
Um, and,

1233
01:04:18,080 --> 01:04:21,050
you know, stick to what was brilliant. And he's done,

1234
01:04:22,120 --> 01:04:26,179
I guess that I mean, I don't know too much, but from my understanding,

1235
01:04:26,620 --> 01:04:28,300
that's what he's been doing,

1236
01:04:28,429 --> 01:04:29,080
You know,

1237
01:04:29,189 --> 01:04:32,520
over the past 1020 years has been the guy who would go now and

1238
01:04:32,739 --> 01:04:35,580
go and meet the guests and the VIP S and sort of,

1239
01:04:35,790 --> 01:04:38,649
you know, world champion driver socialise.

1240
01:04:39,110 --> 01:04:42,419
Yeah. Yeah. And the guy is brilliant at that.

1241
01:04:43,139 --> 01:04:46,709
And by the way, he's also the most brilliant driver.

1242
01:04:48,310 --> 01:04:48,580
OK,

1243
01:04:51,159 --> 01:04:51,590
I guess

1244
01:04:52,550 --> 01:04:53,090
I know that.

1245
01:04:54,959 --> 01:04:55,399
You know,

1246
01:04:55,870 --> 01:04:57,340
I was, um

1247
01:04:58,629 --> 01:05:04,600
I was exposed once or twice to just how great a driver he is,

1248
01:05:05,290 --> 01:05:10,800
Uh, one where he tested a Ford car. A

1249
01:05:11,659 --> 01:05:12,540
Ford.

1250
01:05:13,949 --> 01:05:14,709
The Ford car?

1251
01:05:15,189 --> 01:05:15,520
Yeah. Yeah,

1252
01:05:15,790 --> 01:05:18,580
the little the little one. Yeah, that was my first car.

1253
01:05:18,810 --> 01:05:20,360
That was my first ever car.

1254
01:05:21,560 --> 01:05:22,199
And Jackie

1255
01:05:22,439 --> 01:05:25,189
had the ability to,

1256
01:05:26,199 --> 01:05:29,540
uh, transform himself into a housewife

1257
01:05:29,879 --> 01:05:30,860
or a granny,

1258
01:05:32,429 --> 01:05:36,159
and he noticed every little annoyance.

1259
01:05:37,209 --> 01:05:43,070
You know, if a lorry went past and it wandered on the road, he he was really,

1260
01:05:43,080 --> 01:05:44,459
really good at

1261
01:05:44,739 --> 01:05:46,669
testing road cars

1262
01:05:47,870 --> 01:05:50,330
in the way that no one would ever imagine

1263
01:05:50,939 --> 01:05:53,530
because he wasn't interested in racing.

1264
01:05:54,429 --> 01:05:55,679
He he just

1265
01:05:56,429 --> 01:05:58,550
every little nuance,

1266
01:05:58,989 --> 01:06:01,129
the incredible sense of liberty

1267
01:06:02,370 --> 01:06:03,479
that, um,

1268
01:06:03,929 --> 01:06:06,179
that Ford car, remember, was like a little go

1269
01:06:06,340 --> 01:06:08,459
kart car because it was so light.

1270
01:06:08,909 --> 01:06:12,689
It was kind of I don't know if that was his input, but it always felt like

1271
01:06:12,820 --> 01:06:18,179
so nimble. And there was no red metre. I seem to remember, so you could kind of rag it.

1272
01:06:18,600 --> 01:06:18,850
Well,

1273
01:06:18,860 --> 01:06:23,010
I remember that Parry Jones wanted something

1274
01:06:23,020 --> 01:06:25,250
that had really good vehicle dynamics,

1275
01:06:25,260 --> 01:06:26,489
really good handling.

1276
01:06:26,620 --> 01:06:29,739
And, you know, I think they delivered that on

1277
01:06:29,889 --> 01:06:33,060
on that the car, the focus, the fiesta,

1278
01:06:33,560 --> 01:06:34,290
they they

1279
01:06:34,879 --> 01:06:35,909
want to drive.

1280
01:06:36,060 --> 01:06:36,510
Um,

1281
01:06:36,760 --> 01:06:38,850
anyway, you know, so so

1282
01:06:39,620 --> 01:06:42,370
and and and just ask you, Tony, like at

1283
01:06:42,520 --> 01:06:43,919
that moment, though.

1284
01:06:44,129 --> 01:06:47,000
So you've just essentially become de facto

1285
01:06:47,389 --> 01:06:49,179
running a Formula One team.

1286
01:06:49,860 --> 01:06:51,040
Did you have, like,

1287
01:06:52,510 --> 01:06:53,330
a moment

1288
01:06:53,620 --> 01:06:55,489
of realisation? You know,

1289
01:06:55,669 --> 01:06:57,899
remembering being in that steel

1290
01:06:58,070 --> 01:06:58,879
mine

1291
01:06:59,169 --> 01:06:59,570
having

1292
01:06:59,699 --> 01:07:03,610
you know, did you have those moments of reflection how far you'd

1293
01:07:04,310 --> 01:07:04,739
come?

1294
01:07:04,750 --> 01:07:08,320
Because I guess to a lot of people listening to this, like running a Formula One team

1295
01:07:08,500 --> 01:07:09,550
that's kind of the

1296
01:07:10,330 --> 01:07:13,530
Yeah. Did it feel normal or out of body experience? Ever?

1297
01:07:15,169 --> 01:07:17,709
Yeah, it was. It was very

1298
01:07:18,179 --> 01:07:18,889
full.

1299
01:07:19,260 --> 01:07:21,159
Blimey. You know, this is

1300
01:07:22,560 --> 01:07:25,090
this is the big time sort of thing.

1301
01:07:25,330 --> 01:07:26,030
Um

1302
01:07:27,850 --> 01:07:28,590
and,

1303
01:07:29,810 --> 01:07:32,510
you know, I've got mixed feelings about it.

1304
01:07:32,750 --> 01:07:33,340
Um,

1305
01:07:34,290 --> 01:07:35,659
on the one hand, I, I

1306
01:07:35,929 --> 01:07:41,510
thought Dave and I, you know, particularly Dave were building something

1307
01:07:43,179 --> 01:07:44,760
pretty good, actually.

1308
01:07:45,830 --> 01:07:46,689
Um,

1309
01:07:47,340 --> 01:07:49,120
and restructuring it

1310
01:07:50,050 --> 01:07:52,239
Dave was a great man manager.

1311
01:07:52,449 --> 01:07:53,129
Um,

1312
01:07:54,110 --> 01:07:57,719
and the whole approach was becoming

1313
01:07:57,870 --> 01:08:00,280
much better coordinated and rational.

1314
01:08:01,770 --> 01:08:02,750
Um,

1315
01:08:04,610 --> 01:08:08,229
so that was the kind of good side, the bad,

1316
01:08:08,459 --> 01:08:10,590
And and II, I think

1317
01:08:11,899 --> 01:08:14,399
I think I did that reasonably well.

1318
01:08:15,389 --> 01:08:20,709
The sort of piranha club of Bernie Ecclestone. And, uh,

1319
01:08:21,720 --> 01:08:24,640
you know, the characters around that table.

1320
01:08:25,939 --> 01:08:26,669
Uh,

1321
01:08:27,020 --> 01:08:28,709
I definitely would say that's

1322
01:08:29,750 --> 01:08:31,060
That's not my forte,

1323
01:08:32,729 --> 01:08:38,270
I. I was never prepared for the degree of dishonesty.

1324
01:08:38,979 --> 01:08:40,200
Uh, at that level.

1325
01:08:41,290 --> 01:08:42,220
Um,

1326
01:08:42,430 --> 01:08:45,939
So you were doing those you were part of those discuss.

1327
01:08:45,950 --> 01:08:47,259
So is it like,

1328
01:08:47,270 --> 01:08:48,959
now where you see total wolf and you

1329
01:08:48,970 --> 01:08:51,839
see Horner and the people like is that essentially

1330
01:08:52,310 --> 01:08:54,379
What? Yeah. What was it like

1331
01:08:54,819 --> 01:08:56,569
having to deal with those people?

1332
01:08:58,207 --> 01:08:58,858
I was,

1333
01:09:00,209 --> 01:09:01,910
you know, vaguely traumatic.

1334
01:09:02,080 --> 01:09:03,370
Uh, to be honest,

1335
01:09:03,589 --> 01:09:04,350
um,

1336
01:09:05,669 --> 01:09:11,669
I remember a journalist who I thought was pretty nice guy

1337
01:09:12,109 --> 01:09:13,290
saying, uh,

1338
01:09:13,770 --> 01:09:15,049
Tony, you

1339
01:09:15,810 --> 01:09:17,569
got to wake up a little bit.

1340
01:09:17,770 --> 01:09:18,290
Um,

1341
01:09:19,129 --> 01:09:21,470
people lie in Formula One,

1342
01:09:21,879 --> 01:09:23,509
and they lie a lot.

1343
01:09:26,060 --> 01:09:26,729
You know,

1344
01:09:26,870 --> 01:09:26,879
uh,

1345
01:09:28,250 --> 01:09:32,560
I wouldn't say I'm great at detecting people lying,

1346
01:09:32,720 --> 01:09:33,430
um,

1347
01:09:34,549 --> 01:09:37,459
you know, and that sort of wheeler dealer?

1348
01:09:38,450 --> 01:09:39,270
Um,

1349
01:09:40,450 --> 01:09:41,879
yeah, II.

1350
01:09:43,609 --> 01:09:47,200
I don't think I'm particularly good at that.

1351
01:09:47,529 --> 01:09:48,600
And, um,

1352
01:09:50,029 --> 01:09:52,649
yeah, I was I was very uncomfortable

1353
01:09:52,979 --> 01:09:53,490
there.

1354
01:09:54,569 --> 01:09:57,500
Not that it mattered that much.

1355
01:09:58,419 --> 01:09:58,910
Uh,

1356
01:09:59,620 --> 01:10:00,549
you know,

1357
01:10:02,540 --> 01:10:05,919
there's a lot of smoke and mirrors with anything,

1358
01:10:06,250 --> 01:10:06,839
and

1359
01:10:07,259 --> 01:10:11,270
you imagine that all those meetings,

1360
01:10:11,689 --> 01:10:16,229
you know, with the team bosses. Oh, they must be pivotal. And

1361
01:10:16,689 --> 01:10:18,750
you have to get those right.

1362
01:10:19,620 --> 01:10:23,720
And actually, all that matters is that you've got a fast car.

1363
01:10:24,479 --> 01:10:26,930
Nothing else really matters.

1364
01:10:27,720 --> 01:10:32,899
So, you know, conceding a bit on something to John Todd

1365
01:10:33,370 --> 01:10:34,140
who was

1366
01:10:34,850 --> 01:10:37,790
unbelievably awkward at those meetings.

1367
01:10:38,680 --> 01:10:43,419
Uh, you know, they were actually of very little consequence,

1368
01:10:43,430 --> 01:10:45,899
but they felt very important.

1369
01:10:47,160 --> 01:10:47,899
Um,

1370
01:10:48,959 --> 01:10:49,620
and

1371
01:10:50,709 --> 01:10:51,310
I, I

1372
01:10:51,649 --> 01:10:52,319
think

1373
01:10:54,870 --> 01:10:55,250
it

1374
01:10:56,439 --> 01:11:01,779
I think I might have adapted, but I honestly I. I don't think that

1375
01:11:02,899 --> 01:11:05,169
that's where I'm best deployed.

1376
01:11:06,640 --> 01:11:09,049
If you like, um

1377
01:11:10,410 --> 01:11:12,149
and actually, the

1378
01:11:12,600 --> 01:11:16,939
the way the Formula One thing worked was, you know, I had this new

1379
01:11:17,669 --> 01:11:19,879
train set for Christmas, if you like,

1380
01:11:20,540 --> 01:11:22,319
uh, when I was appointed,

1381
01:11:23,259 --> 01:11:24,459
um,

1382
01:11:25,479 --> 01:11:29,479
and the first year, I think we went OK, We

1383
01:11:29,930 --> 01:11:32,709
we wouldn't have made any visible progress,

1384
01:11:32,720 --> 01:11:35,830
but we made a lot of progress inside the team.

1385
01:11:37,450 --> 01:11:40,950
And then at the beginning of the year, too,

1386
01:11:42,279 --> 01:11:44,229
I was taken aside,

1387
01:11:44,529 --> 01:11:46,830
uh, sworn to secrecy

1388
01:11:47,629 --> 01:11:53,169
and told that it was pretty unlikely that Ford would continue in Formula One.

1389
01:11:53,839 --> 01:11:55,500
And I had to find

1390
01:11:55,759 --> 01:11:56,609
a buyer

1391
01:11:57,490 --> 01:12:00,589
of the team and the engine company,

1392
01:12:01,120 --> 01:12:02,910
or maybe a partner.

1393
01:12:03,870 --> 01:12:08,529
But there was no way Ford was staying in with these costs.

1394
01:12:09,500 --> 01:12:10,299
Uh,

1395
01:12:10,509 --> 01:12:12,600
and I had to keep that to myself,

1396
01:12:13,819 --> 01:12:15,089
so that was a bit

1397
01:12:15,209 --> 01:12:15,850
awkward.

1398
01:12:16,189 --> 01:12:19,640
There must be a lot of stress then to hold that responsibility.

1399
01:12:20,049 --> 01:12:21,729
Yeah, that was like, uh,

1400
01:12:24,459 --> 01:12:28,310
I think that year probably aged me 10 years.

1401
01:12:28,859 --> 01:12:30,200
I was gonna say

1402
01:12:30,819 --> 01:12:31,810
So,

1403
01:12:32,049 --> 01:12:32,759
um,

1404
01:12:33,819 --> 01:12:38,430
I did it kind of deal with Dave that I would just work on

1405
01:12:38,649 --> 01:12:39,569
finding a

1406
01:12:40,430 --> 01:12:41,290
a partner,

1407
01:12:42,290 --> 01:12:43,149
the team

1408
01:12:43,490 --> 01:12:46,069
and he would concentrate on running it.

1409
01:12:47,390 --> 01:12:50,479
Uh, and that that was great. because Dave

1410
01:12:51,529 --> 01:12:53,580
100% trustworthy

1411
01:12:54,120 --> 01:12:56,149
and very good at running the team.

1412
01:12:57,330 --> 01:13:01,740
And I ran around the world trying to find a

1413
01:13:02,029 --> 01:13:03,029
a partner.

1414
01:13:03,509 --> 01:13:05,830
Then Ford went public with it,

1415
01:13:07,049 --> 01:13:09,549
and then the stress cranked up

1416
01:13:10,290 --> 01:13:11,750
beyond the imagination.

1417
01:13:13,069 --> 01:13:16,410
Uh, I was told by Ford

1418
01:13:16,600 --> 01:13:18,740
to work with HSBC

1419
01:13:19,270 --> 01:13:20,569
to sell the company.

1420
01:13:22,200 --> 01:13:24,939
That was just a complete waste of time.

1421
01:13:26,419 --> 01:13:27,200
Um

1422
01:13:28,200 --> 01:13:29,979
and the the problem was, is that

1423
01:13:31,580 --> 01:13:32,990
people thought that

1424
01:13:33,629 --> 01:13:35,839
it was a business that

1425
01:13:36,120 --> 01:13:38,759
Formula One having a Formula One team was

1426
01:13:39,450 --> 01:13:42,270
somehow a good thing financially,

1427
01:13:42,879 --> 01:13:44,229
an investment.

1428
01:13:46,740 --> 01:13:50,209
What's the joke with Formula One, Isn't it like, what's that joke?

1429
01:13:50,220 --> 01:13:55,189
People say you begin as the fastest way to become a millionaire is to begin.

1430
01:13:58,569 --> 01:13:59,560
And you know,

1431
01:13:59,569 --> 01:14:06,080
I thought the only thing that I could see that you got with the Formula One was,

1432
01:14:06,819 --> 01:14:07,609
uh,

1433
01:14:08,000 --> 01:14:10,000
you know, it's like having

1434
01:14:10,319 --> 01:14:12,959
an extremely exciting company.

1435
01:14:13,370 --> 01:14:17,279
And the only aspect of it you got was the tax bill.

1436
01:14:18,229 --> 01:14:21,790
You didn't get any of the profits or anything else. You just got an annual

1437
01:14:22,040 --> 01:14:22,080
tax

1438
01:14:23,500 --> 01:14:26,950
and people, you know, HSBC was saying,

1439
01:14:27,160 --> 01:14:30,970
Oh, well, let's look at the balance sheet and the profit and loss

1440
01:14:31,939 --> 01:14:36,359
and it just It was so wearing to tell all these people

1441
01:14:36,810 --> 01:14:38,859
that unless you sink

1442
01:14:38,979 --> 01:14:40,370
gazillions in,

1443
01:14:42,169 --> 01:14:43,549
it will go bust.

1444
01:14:44,069 --> 01:14:48,229
And there's no prospect whatsoever of making any money out of it.

1445
01:14:50,359 --> 01:14:50,459
You

1446
01:14:50,609 --> 01:14:52,470
know, that was the honest,

1447
01:14:53,290 --> 01:14:53,970
which you could,

1448
01:14:54,689 --> 01:14:55,160
but,

1449
01:14:55,330 --> 01:14:55,970
you know,

1450
01:14:57,649 --> 01:15:04,120
and so very fast it was in my mind, the only people we were going to sell to

1451
01:15:04,370 --> 01:15:08,720
was somebody who had an interest in sponsoring a formal one team.

1452
01:15:09,439 --> 01:15:10,100
And

1453
01:15:10,410 --> 01:15:11,020
I

1454
01:15:11,859 --> 01:15:15,189
I'd always been a huge believer

1455
01:15:15,740 --> 01:15:16,399
that

1456
01:15:16,680 --> 01:15:19,580
the name of the team is the most valuable asset.

1457
01:15:19,870 --> 01:15:23,720
Painting your decals on the side of the the car

1458
01:15:25,229 --> 01:15:28,810
struck me as vastly overvalued.

1459
01:15:29,830 --> 01:15:30,720
Um,

1460
01:15:31,250 --> 01:15:32,700
And so,

1461
01:15:33,060 --> 01:15:36,279
uh, there were one or two

1462
01:15:36,680 --> 01:15:38,049
people around

1463
01:15:38,439 --> 01:15:40,640
who did seem to have a a

1464
01:15:40,770 --> 01:15:44,689
fundamental reason for buying a Formula One team.

1465
01:15:45,109 --> 01:15:47,259
And by far the best was Red Bull.

1466
01:15:47,500 --> 01:15:48,870
No question at all.

1467
01:15:49,640 --> 01:15:54,180
Um, but there was also the Shanghai local government,

1468
01:15:54,339 --> 01:15:55,379
believe it or not,

1469
01:15:56,120 --> 01:15:56,129
uh,

1470
01:15:56,240 --> 01:15:57,470
because they

1471
01:15:57,689 --> 01:16:00,819
they'd arranged the Chinese Grand Prix,

1472
01:16:01,709 --> 01:16:05,930
and they were interested in having a Chinese Formula One team.

1473
01:16:06,700 --> 01:16:09,720
So I spent a fair amount of time in China.

1474
01:16:11,200 --> 01:16:13,509
Uh, and then there was, uh, uh,

1475
01:16:13,939 --> 01:16:15,990
Midland Group

1476
01:16:16,750 --> 01:16:18,350
who eventually brought

1477
01:16:18,529 --> 01:16:19,459
Jordan.

1478
01:16:20,580 --> 01:16:21,250
And they were,

1479
01:16:22,290 --> 01:16:25,689
um they were in the Russian. I don't know why I laugh. It just

1480
01:16:25,879 --> 01:16:28,009
just doesn't sound

1481
01:16:28,410 --> 01:16:31,810
like the sort of company that would buy. Maybe I'm thinking now, in modern day

1482
01:16:32,390 --> 01:16:36,649
Midland Group. Um, but, uh, yeah, well, it was a Russian oligarch.

1483
01:16:37,930 --> 01:16:40,709
You know, in today's parlance,

1484
01:16:41,040 --> 01:16:44,790
it was a Russian oligarch. Although it was a Canadian based

1485
01:16:45,299 --> 01:16:47,390
Russian Canadian

1486
01:16:47,919 --> 01:16:48,660
company.

1487
01:16:49,740 --> 01:16:53,080
Well, they were the three sort of big contenders,

1488
01:16:53,500 --> 01:16:53,950
but,

1489
01:16:54,100 --> 01:16:54,729
um,

1490
01:16:56,339 --> 01:16:59,839
we we got to the stage where

1491
01:16:59,979 --> 01:17:03,589
Sir Nick Scheele, who's president of Ford and Dietrich Mateschitz,

1492
01:17:05,299 --> 01:17:11,790
uh, myself, uh, kind of agreed heads of agreement on a 5050 partnership,

1493
01:17:13,220 --> 01:17:17,870
and that was very exciting. That was kind of mid season.

1494
01:17:18,270 --> 01:17:18,939
Uh,

1495
01:17:20,279 --> 01:17:23,100
we even made a wind tunnel model,

1496
01:17:23,470 --> 01:17:24,459
which I've got,

1497
01:17:25,270 --> 01:17:26,430
Which stars

1498
01:17:28,020 --> 01:17:30,100
for Red Bull.

1499
01:17:30,430 --> 01:17:31,279
Um

1500
01:17:31,470 --> 01:17:32,290
wow.

1501
01:17:33,939 --> 01:17:35,529
Uh, so that very cool that

1502
01:17:36,200 --> 01:17:36,580
that was

1503
01:17:37,180 --> 01:17:38,500
that a one of a kind,

1504
01:17:39,709 --> 01:17:41,490
Very exciting. And

1505
01:17:42,120 --> 01:17:43,600
everything looked good.

1506
01:17:43,979 --> 01:17:48,810
Ford were happy because it dropped their costs by 50%.

1507
01:17:49,250 --> 01:17:50,919
They agreed to do the engine.

1508
01:17:51,120 --> 01:17:52,790
Red Bull would do the

1509
01:17:53,209 --> 01:17:53,919
car.

1510
01:17:54,790 --> 01:17:57,330
It would be a long term partnership.

1511
01:17:58,520 --> 01:18:00,060
And then, um

1512
01:18:01,120 --> 01:18:05,220
uh, we were told, you know, we couldn't announce it

1513
01:18:05,339 --> 01:18:06,020
because

1514
01:18:06,259 --> 01:18:10,850
the announcement had to be prepared through the PR guys blah, blah, blah, blah,

1515
01:18:10,859 --> 01:18:11,169
blah.

1516
01:18:12,700 --> 01:18:18,359
And while we were working kind of just to get that ready, I was summoned to Detroit

1517
01:18:19,359 --> 01:18:22,819
and I walked into the the top floor of Ford,

1518
01:18:23,379 --> 01:18:26,140
and I knew the moment I walked.

1519
01:18:27,379 --> 01:18:29,500
There's something wrong here.

1520
01:18:31,080 --> 01:18:32,839
Uh, I was grilled.

1521
01:18:32,850 --> 01:18:37,740
How long would it take for this partnership to win the world championship?

1522
01:18:38,830 --> 01:18:41,370
And I said, Oh, at least five years.

1523
01:18:41,790 --> 01:18:42,319
You know,

1524
01:18:42,509 --> 01:18:43,069
um,

1525
01:18:43,740 --> 01:18:48,439
it's really tough to win in Formula One. It needs tremendous commitment

1526
01:18:48,640 --> 01:18:52,390
where you're gonna have that from the race team with Red Bull.

1527
01:18:52,509 --> 01:18:55,379
But it also needs tremendous commitment on the engine

1528
01:18:55,629 --> 01:18:57,520
because you can't have a weak link.

1529
01:18:59,100 --> 01:18:59,109
Uh,

1530
01:18:59,839 --> 01:19:03,160
how much does a competitive engine cost?

1531
01:19:03,169 --> 01:19:05,319
Blah blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

1532
01:19:06,220 --> 01:19:07,430
Uh,

1533
01:19:08,640 --> 01:19:10,359
could you leave the room? Tony,

1534
01:19:10,859 --> 01:19:12,020
wait an hour.

1535
01:19:12,140 --> 01:19:13,299
Summon back.

1536
01:19:14,850 --> 01:19:18,709
We decided we are exiting Formula One 100%.

1537
01:19:20,640 --> 01:19:21,129
It is.

1538
01:19:22,399 --> 01:19:24,350
Uh, so, uh,

1539
01:19:24,779 --> 01:19:26,979
and then I had a deadline.

1540
01:19:27,839 --> 01:19:33,220
If you haven't sold the team by November, the 21st or something like that,

1541
01:19:34,279 --> 01:19:35,500
we're shutting it down.

1542
01:19:36,040 --> 01:19:37,740
Everybody's redundant.

1543
01:19:38,220 --> 01:19:40,779
Both Cosworth and, um

1544
01:19:42,000 --> 01:19:43,160
uh Jaguar.

1545
01:19:44,020 --> 01:19:46,839
So that focused the mind a little bit. Mind a bit.

1546
01:19:46,990 --> 01:19:47,680
Um,

1547
01:19:48,129 --> 01:19:48,939
jeez,

1548
01:19:49,859 --> 01:19:51,700
because we, um

1549
01:19:52,120 --> 01:19:55,439
we kind of pulled out of the agreement with Red Bull.

1550
01:19:56,569 --> 01:19:57,950
They went frosty.

1551
01:19:58,970 --> 01:20:01,750
And the the relationship was pretty broken.

1552
01:20:02,720 --> 01:20:03,819
What day tracked?

1553
01:20:05,250 --> 01:20:07,439
Um, but I I

1554
01:20:07,899 --> 01:20:12,759
just tried everything known to man to wheedle myself back in there.

1555
01:20:13,910 --> 01:20:17,620
Uh, including a proposal for two teams,

1556
01:20:19,000 --> 01:20:22,540
Uh, that it would actually make sense for Red Bull,

1557
01:20:23,410 --> 01:20:24,390
um,

1558
01:20:25,209 --> 01:20:30,270
to exploit a loophole in the the rules where you could have two teams.

1559
01:20:31,049 --> 01:20:31,890
Uh

1560
01:20:32,830 --> 01:20:34,470
ah. This is

1561
01:20:34,819 --> 01:20:35,540
an idea.

1562
01:20:36,580 --> 01:20:38,470
They were quite interested in that.

1563
01:20:39,580 --> 01:20:40,439
Um,

1564
01:20:41,319 --> 01:20:42,399
And then

1565
01:20:43,049 --> 01:20:45,339
suddenly, towards the end,

1566
01:20:46,040 --> 01:20:48,259
I realised that

1567
01:20:49,120 --> 01:20:52,779
this wasn't a business decision for

1568
01:20:53,020 --> 01:20:53,620
Dietrich.

1569
01:20:54,180 --> 01:20:56,060
It was an emotional decision.

1570
01:20:57,009 --> 01:20:58,200
And Helmut Marko

1571
01:20:58,390 --> 01:20:59,859
was saying,

1572
01:21:00,310 --> 01:21:03,540
Helmut, you've always wanted your own Formula One team.

1573
01:21:04,459 --> 01:21:05,410
This is it.

1574
01:21:06,140 --> 01:21:11,799
You know, this is a good team. The facilities are good. It's set up nicely.

1575
01:21:12,290 --> 01:21:13,600
It's now or never.

1576
01:21:14,620 --> 01:21:18,759
And I I kind of sense that Dietrich

1577
01:21:19,689 --> 01:21:20,509
wanted it.

1578
01:21:21,600 --> 01:21:24,779
And so it all came together at the last moment.

1579
01:21:25,819 --> 01:21:28,560
Uh, and suddenly we were Red Bull.

1580
01:21:30,100 --> 01:21:31,169
So, uh,

1581
01:21:32,459 --> 01:21:35,720
uh, they asked me to stay on as team principal.

1582
01:21:36,549 --> 01:21:37,430
Um,

1583
01:21:39,490 --> 01:21:43,080
although it was a bit of a vague commitment, You know,

1584
01:21:43,089 --> 01:21:46,229
it's like while we sort out what we want to do.

1585
01:21:47,560 --> 01:21:49,180
And so we did.

1586
01:21:49,379 --> 01:21:51,100
And I'd say

1587
01:21:52,419 --> 01:21:53,959
immediately,

1588
01:21:54,589 --> 01:21:57,290
uh, we,

1589
01:21:58,339 --> 01:21:59,149
uh,

1590
01:21:59,830 --> 01:22:01,209
fell out with Red Bull.

1591
01:22:02,660 --> 01:22:03,479
Dave and I,

1592
01:22:04,319 --> 01:22:05,220
um,

1593
01:22:06,770 --> 01:22:08,500
they wouldn't give us a budget.

1594
01:22:10,000 --> 01:22:13,490
They they had some some crazy ideas,

1595
01:22:13,649 --> 01:22:16,819
because don't forget that they were really a marketing company.

1596
01:22:17,680 --> 01:22:18,200
Yeah,

1597
01:22:18,490 --> 01:22:18,959
and

1598
01:22:19,390 --> 01:22:21,959
the one team is really an engineering company,

1599
01:22:23,299 --> 01:22:26,000
and so they were feeling their way.

1600
01:22:26,890 --> 01:22:29,009
And one of the first things they did was

1601
01:22:30,919 --> 01:22:35,160
order the most biblical motorhome known to man,

1602
01:22:36,430 --> 01:22:37,580
uh, at

1603
01:22:37,950 --> 01:22:42,689
unbelievable cost without any reference to anybody in the team.

1604
01:22:44,259 --> 01:22:47,200
And we started getting some bills for this thing.

1605
01:22:49,850 --> 01:22:51,870
You know, Dave couldn't cope with that.

1606
01:22:52,000 --> 01:22:53,870
That caused a lot of stress.

1607
01:22:54,890 --> 01:22:58,939
Um, we began to fall out over drivers.

1608
01:22:58,950 --> 01:23:01,930
Uh, they wanted to bring in a guy called Tonio Liuzzi.

1609
01:23:02,899 --> 01:23:04,759
Um, we'd had,

1610
01:23:04,910 --> 01:23:05,430
uh,

1611
01:23:06,600 --> 01:23:08,979
pretty challenging year with their,

1612
01:23:09,259 --> 01:23:09,850
um

1613
01:23:11,209 --> 01:23:12,589
the driver.

1614
01:23:14,959 --> 01:23:17,580
I'm having a senior moment. I can't remember his name.

1615
01:23:19,149 --> 01:23:20,540
An Austrian driver,

1616
01:23:21,990 --> 01:23:24,930
Um, who Who struggled in the car.

1617
01:23:26,439 --> 01:23:28,180
And so,

1618
01:23:28,470 --> 01:23:29,540
you know, we wanted

1619
01:23:30,640 --> 01:23:34,500
to keep keep Mark Webber If we could that wasn't on,

1620
01:23:35,299 --> 01:23:36,379
then

1621
01:23:37,220 --> 01:23:40,279
safe pair of shoes in David

1622
01:23:40,640 --> 01:23:41,029
Coulthard.

1623
01:23:41,979 --> 01:23:43,080
But, um

1624
01:23:43,470 --> 01:23:49,399
II I can't really remember the details, but they were really annoyed that we should,

1625
01:23:50,209 --> 01:23:50,750
you know,

1626
01:23:52,049 --> 01:23:55,069
be part of the discussion on drivers,

1627
01:23:56,120 --> 01:23:56,620
you know,

1628
01:23:57,220 --> 01:23:59,919
we were just so it was a bit of a power struggle.

1629
01:23:59,930 --> 01:24:03,100
You mean they wanted to sort of not just own but

1630
01:24:03,390 --> 01:24:04,790
to run as well.

1631
01:24:04,979 --> 01:24:08,259
Yeah. Helmut Marco wanted to be the boss

1632
01:24:08,580 --> 01:24:10,339
without being the boss.

1633
01:24:10,810 --> 01:24:13,859
He wanted to make all the big calls,

1634
01:24:14,910 --> 01:24:19,759
which which actually would have been OK if they just said,

1635
01:24:20,290 --> 01:24:22,450
that's the way it's gonna be

1636
01:24:23,350 --> 01:24:23,930
And

1637
01:24:24,870 --> 01:24:25,609
you know,

1638
01:24:26,500 --> 01:24:29,479
but but it was a much bigger stress over budget,

1639
01:24:30,600 --> 01:24:34,140
you know, they wouldn't really give us a budget.

1640
01:24:35,220 --> 01:24:35,609
And

1641
01:24:35,790 --> 01:24:37,709
it was also wishy

1642
01:24:37,970 --> 01:24:38,660
washy.

1643
01:24:40,290 --> 01:24:41,149
Um,

1644
01:24:41,640 --> 01:24:42,290
and

1645
01:24:42,979 --> 01:24:43,689
that

1646
01:24:43,790 --> 01:24:47,520
didn't sit well with Dave because Dave likes to know where he is.

1647
01:24:47,529 --> 01:24:48,919
Yorkshireman, you know,

1648
01:24:51,290 --> 01:24:54,569
and things got increasingly,

1649
01:24:56,259 --> 01:24:59,479
uh, acrimonious. And the other thing,

1650
01:24:59,609 --> 01:25:02,160
to be honest, I was completely burnt out.

1651
01:25:02,540 --> 01:25:04,919
Absolutely. I was just about to say

1652
01:25:05,290 --> 01:25:07,990
you must all that stress building up.

1653
01:25:08,509 --> 01:25:12,279
It must have reached a point when you the glamour and the sort of

1654
01:25:12,930 --> 01:25:17,319
you'd sold your business I guess you had a, you know, a bit of bit of cash from that.

1655
01:25:17,330 --> 01:25:20,080
So was there a point of view just going Why am I doing this?

1656
01:25:21,049 --> 01:25:22,040
No,

1657
01:25:22,189 --> 01:25:23,350
no, never.

1658
01:25:24,910 --> 01:25:25,729
Never.

1659
01:25:26,479 --> 01:25:30,649
No. I was more like a guy

1660
01:25:30,830 --> 01:25:34,850
who lost all sense of perspective.

1661
01:25:35,549 --> 01:25:38,569
And I just had to sell the company

1662
01:25:38,990 --> 01:25:40,000
I had.

1663
01:25:40,390 --> 01:25:42,379
There was no way I could,

1664
01:25:43,240 --> 01:25:48,250
uh, allow mass redundancy and the whole thing to clap.

1665
01:25:49,040 --> 01:25:51,359
So you felt like a personal responsibility. You

1666
01:25:51,580 --> 01:25:51,870
mean

1667
01:25:52,979 --> 01:25:53,700
by that?

1668
01:25:55,500 --> 01:25:58,359
And and it really cost me. You know, um,

1669
01:25:59,629 --> 01:26:00,689
I

1670
01:26:01,669 --> 01:26:06,129
you know, I didn't I didn't fall out with my wife, but I hardly ever saw her.

1671
01:26:07,049 --> 01:26:09,350
Uh, the Children were young, and,

1672
01:26:09,580 --> 01:26:11,950
you know, I remember the Children changed

1673
01:26:12,189 --> 01:26:15,509
from when I was team principal

1674
01:26:15,779 --> 01:26:19,910
to kind of running out to see me when I arrived home each weekend.

1675
01:26:20,830 --> 01:26:21,799
Um,

1676
01:26:22,000 --> 01:26:23,680
and now, after

1677
01:26:24,290 --> 01:26:25,609
two years of that,

1678
01:26:25,770 --> 01:26:27,279
you know, they were, uh,

1679
01:26:27,759 --> 01:26:31,770
sort of disinterested because I was always on the mobile phone anyway,

1680
01:26:32,589 --> 01:26:33,890
um,

1681
01:26:34,359 --> 01:26:35,129
and,

1682
01:26:36,290 --> 01:26:38,990
uh, I never knew what time zone I was in.

1683
01:26:39,939 --> 01:26:40,299
Uh,

1684
01:26:41,339 --> 01:26:44,149
you know, And then, uh,

1685
01:26:45,359 --> 01:26:51,609
there was some, uh, really bad press about the way we run the team. in in a

1686
01:26:51,850 --> 01:26:55,450
sort of rogue magazine called Business Formula One. That

1687
01:26:55,560 --> 01:26:57,540
that did enormous damage,

1688
01:26:58,680 --> 01:26:59,660
Um,

1689
01:27:00,390 --> 01:27:01,290
and,

1690
01:27:01,660 --> 01:27:02,410
uh,

1691
01:27:03,180 --> 01:27:03,919
and was,

1692
01:27:04,049 --> 01:27:05,439
you know, sort of

1693
01:27:05,790 --> 01:27:10,319
root. Cause of that was that all I was doing was trying to sell the team I.

1694
01:27:10,330 --> 01:27:11,839
I kind of had no

1695
01:27:12,879 --> 01:27:15,729
no involvement with the team anymore.

1696
01:27:15,950 --> 01:27:18,279
I was just the salesman trying to flog it.

1697
01:27:18,959 --> 01:27:20,640
Um, so,

1698
01:27:21,189 --> 01:27:23,299
you know, life was

1699
01:27:24,350 --> 01:27:27,029
very, very difficult. Um,

1700
01:27:28,779 --> 01:27:32,319
other people will tell you that things like this,

1701
01:27:32,330 --> 01:27:34,810
but I remember waking up in a hotel room

1702
01:27:35,520 --> 01:27:39,290
trying to figure out where I was and what I was doing. And,

1703
01:27:39,720 --> 01:27:40,770
you know, it sort of

1704
01:27:41,109 --> 01:27:44,029
took a while before I Oh, yeah,

1705
01:27:44,620 --> 01:27:47,450
yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't know, Shanghai,

1706
01:27:47,939 --> 01:27:48,229
Uh,

1707
01:27:48,689 --> 01:27:49,220
you know,

1708
01:27:49,779 --> 01:27:51,470
I was just burnt out now,

1709
01:27:52,720 --> 01:27:53,270
so,

1710
01:27:54,200 --> 01:27:54,930
um,

1711
01:27:55,859 --> 01:27:56,600
And since

1712
01:27:57,689 --> 01:28:00,549
when we were fired from Red Bull,

1713
01:28:01,930 --> 01:28:02,709
Um,

1714
01:28:04,759 --> 01:28:06,919
there was kind of, uh,

1715
01:28:07,819 --> 01:28:08,720
something.

1716
01:28:11,020 --> 01:28:12,669
There was a blessing about it.

1717
01:28:14,799 --> 01:28:15,830
You know,

1718
01:28:16,020 --> 01:28:16,060
I

1719
01:28:17,180 --> 01:28:20,930
think many people would say, Oh, you know, that was a disaster.

1720
01:28:20,939 --> 01:28:24,089
And I was super angry about it. Super angry.

1721
01:28:24,720 --> 01:28:25,979
But actually,

1722
01:28:27,060 --> 01:28:29,479
I think it was a blessing because

1723
01:28:29,919 --> 01:28:31,279
I needed a break.

1724
01:28:32,290 --> 01:28:32,310
I

1725
01:28:32,450 --> 01:28:35,870
probably wasn't right for that role. anyway.

1726
01:28:37,100 --> 01:28:43,439
Uh, certainly not in the the the Wheeler dealer days of of Bernie Ecclestone.

1727
01:28:44,549 --> 01:28:46,250
And, um

1728
01:28:48,640 --> 01:28:49,740
uh,

1729
01:28:49,910 --> 01:28:54,220
I think my my family would have broken up if I'd stayed there,

1730
01:28:54,810 --> 01:28:55,709
because it is

1731
01:28:55,979 --> 01:28:57,810
just so demanding.

1732
01:28:58,899 --> 01:28:59,750
Um,

1733
01:29:00,459 --> 01:29:02,799
so in a way, it was

1734
01:29:03,370 --> 01:29:04,709
It was a good thing,

1735
01:29:05,209 --> 01:29:05,819
and

1736
01:29:05,979 --> 01:29:09,319
and I I'm sure Christian was much better

1737
01:29:09,790 --> 01:29:12,950
for rebel, you know,

1738
01:29:13,419 --> 01:29:14,040
Um,

1739
01:29:15,600 --> 01:29:19,649
and it probably needed that young, enthusiastic, uh,

1740
01:29:20,060 --> 01:29:21,439
you know, fresh face.

1741
01:29:22,930 --> 01:29:24,330
Um, and actually, it

1742
01:29:24,500 --> 01:29:28,520
it It almost immediately led to me working for the FIA.

1743
01:29:29,629 --> 01:29:30,129
Uh

1744
01:29:30,770 --> 01:29:32,000
and I did enjoy

1745
01:29:32,810 --> 01:29:33,129
the FIA.

1746
01:29:34,919 --> 01:29:37,259
So I guess the question is, was that a

1747
01:29:38,379 --> 01:29:40,439
Did you ever consider working

1748
01:29:40,680 --> 01:29:45,200
for another F? One team, you know, was there Was there an opportunity and you

1749
01:29:45,379 --> 01:29:48,799
thought I don't want to do that anymore? Or was it more that you felt

1750
01:29:49,430 --> 01:29:50,770
I want to be the the

1751
01:29:50,939 --> 01:29:53,660
rule maker, You know, rather than the

1752
01:29:53,799 --> 01:29:55,160
people trying to break the rules.

1753
01:29:56,220 --> 01:29:57,540
There was a,

1754
01:29:57,669 --> 01:29:57,680
uh,

1755
01:29:58,149 --> 01:30:05,029
small chance of, um, running a McLaren B team.

1756
01:30:06,450 --> 01:30:10,549
So, uh, this idea of, uh,

1757
01:30:10,569 --> 01:30:14,390
you you you know that you could buy the best bits of

1758
01:30:14,399 --> 01:30:18,479
a Formula One car and run it as a kind of associate team

1759
01:30:20,049 --> 01:30:22,279
was coming into fashion there.

1760
01:30:23,000 --> 01:30:25,620
Uh, Ron Dennis understood that.

1761
01:30:26,520 --> 01:30:28,540
And then we had this,

1762
01:30:28,950 --> 01:30:30,580
uh, guy from

1763
01:30:30,979 --> 01:30:33,500
Japan, I think who was a billionaire

1764
01:30:34,270 --> 01:30:36,410
want, who wanted to do it.

1765
01:30:37,089 --> 01:30:40,149
We kind of all got it together, But, um,

1766
01:30:41,370 --> 01:30:42,180
it was

1767
01:30:42,310 --> 01:30:45,080
the contract that McLaren came out with,

1768
01:30:45,569 --> 01:30:49,509
I couldn't support. That was so one sided.

1769
01:30:50,669 --> 01:30:57,479
Uh, and I couldn't hand on heart recommend to this guy that he do it because it

1770
01:30:58,819 --> 01:31:02,240
it was such a huge proportion of his wealth.

1771
01:31:03,310 --> 01:31:03,430
Uh,

1772
01:31:03,740 --> 01:31:05,330
with his family's wealth,

1773
01:31:06,379 --> 01:31:07,209
Um,

1774
01:31:07,520 --> 01:31:11,310
you know, it wasn't like Lawrence Stroll who's, you know,

1775
01:31:12,350 --> 01:31:15,339
it's 5% or something like that.

1776
01:31:16,290 --> 01:31:19,129
You know, this was a big proportion,

1777
01:31:20,160 --> 01:31:21,509
and, um,

1778
01:31:22,450 --> 01:31:22,790
it

1779
01:31:23,589 --> 01:31:25,169
it came to nothing.

1780
01:31:25,479 --> 01:31:26,049
Um,

1781
01:31:27,220 --> 01:31:33,529
and actually, I think I did more to destroy that deal in the end and try and make it work

1782
01:31:33,890 --> 01:31:35,870
because I was uncomfortable with it.

1783
01:31:36,339 --> 01:31:38,790
So yeah, we had a chance, and Dave was

1784
01:31:39,529 --> 01:31:41,149
Dave was behind that,

1785
01:31:41,470 --> 01:31:42,109
um,

1786
01:31:42,799 --> 01:31:47,899
but then, uh, the FIA came along and Boeing came along for David

1787
01:31:48,990 --> 01:31:50,229
and, um,

1788
01:31:50,990 --> 01:31:52,160
you know, to

1789
01:31:52,339 --> 01:31:55,410
to to show you how good David was.

1790
01:31:55,939 --> 01:32:01,930
Uh, he he he in? No, time at all became the president of Boeing. Uh, defence,

1791
01:32:02,930 --> 01:32:03,729
that's

1792
01:32:04,040 --> 01:32:05,080
that's a mega.

1793
01:32:06,879 --> 01:32:07,009
And

1794
01:32:07,279 --> 01:32:07,379
the

1795
01:32:07,740 --> 01:32:12,589
money there make Formula One look like, you know, crumbs on the table.

1796
01:32:15,240 --> 01:32:24,189
And yet, you know, the the Red Bull people. And actually, uh, Jackie Stewart

1797
01:32:24,379 --> 01:32:26,500
could see no value in the guy.

1798
01:32:27,609 --> 01:32:28,399
Um,

1799
01:32:28,560 --> 01:32:29,640
so, you know,

1800
01:32:29,859 --> 01:32:30,569
I

1801
01:32:31,189 --> 01:32:36,140
was always sort of proud that the guy kind of partnered with,

1802
01:32:37,149 --> 01:32:38,520
uh was,

1803
01:32:39,950 --> 01:32:42,609
you know, you know, I. I got that right.

1804
01:32:42,770 --> 01:32:47,490
He he he he was. And he is a real mega star.

1805
01:32:48,410 --> 01:32:49,419
Um, so

1806
01:32:49,990 --> 01:32:55,200
So that was good. He went off to Boeing, and I joined the FIA and I worked with Max,

1807
01:32:56,129 --> 01:32:59,629
and frankly, it was a blast. I loved working for Max

1808
01:32:59,879 --> 01:33:01,310
and Peter Wright

1809
01:33:02,160 --> 01:33:03,509
and Charlie Whiting.

1810
01:33:04,109 --> 01:33:05,250
And, um,

1811
01:33:05,799 --> 01:33:09,040
it wasn't really like work. It was just great fun.

1812
01:33:10,549 --> 01:33:11,709
So what was it

1813
01:33:12,140 --> 01:33:15,729
like, though At that time, though, Because the impression you get is like,

1814
01:33:15,740 --> 01:33:19,259
Formula One was this Wild West with lots of sort of, you know,

1815
01:33:19,509 --> 01:33:23,750
underhand deals going on and agreements which are not written down and

1816
01:33:23,870 --> 01:33:26,649
sort of Was there a sense of that? Um

1817
01:33:27,990 --> 01:33:28,729
I don't know,

1818
01:33:30,100 --> 01:33:32,009
Wild West a little bit Or was it

1819
01:33:32,290 --> 01:33:33,160
more?

1820
01:33:33,890 --> 01:33:34,500
I thought

1821
01:33:35,419 --> 01:33:37,290
I thought it was more like the Mafia.

1822
01:33:38,439 --> 01:33:38,930
You know,

1823
01:33:41,450 --> 01:33:41,859
uh,

1824
01:33:42,629 --> 01:33:43,209
you know,

1825
01:33:43,720 --> 01:33:46,080
completely devoid of ethics.

1826
01:33:46,819 --> 01:33:47,640
Uh,

1827
01:33:49,589 --> 01:33:54,290
you know, wheeler dealers larger than life characters.

1828
01:33:54,370 --> 01:33:57,729
Side deals that no one noticed.

1829
01:33:58,509 --> 01:34:01,689
You know, uh, disingenuous

1830
01:34:02,049 --> 01:34:04,529
activities left, right? And centre.

1831
01:34:05,419 --> 01:34:06,410
Um,

1832
01:34:07,109 --> 01:34:10,129
but the FIA were a bit divorced from that,

1833
01:34:10,910 --> 01:34:13,720
so I was much more comfortable with the FAA.

1834
01:34:14,600 --> 01:34:15,120
But

1835
01:34:15,620 --> 01:34:20,290
there was a lot of politics between the FIA and the teams.

1836
01:34:21,410 --> 01:34:22,270
Um,

1837
01:34:23,149 --> 01:34:23,970
because

1838
01:34:25,049 --> 01:34:26,009
Max

1839
01:34:27,600 --> 01:34:27,890
ma

1840
01:34:29,200 --> 01:34:30,109
was

1841
01:34:30,560 --> 01:34:35,060
when? When I joined Max had two things that he really believed in.

1842
01:34:35,970 --> 01:34:37,959
He believed that

1843
01:34:38,430 --> 01:34:41,910
this general subject of sustainability

1844
01:34:42,589 --> 01:34:45,370
was going to be a huge deal in the future.

1845
01:34:46,120 --> 01:34:50,169
And Formula One needed to align itself with

1846
01:34:50,640 --> 01:34:54,660
technology for a cleaner, better world

1847
01:34:55,310 --> 01:34:56,890
and away from

1848
01:34:57,029 --> 01:34:58,839
a celebration of waste,

1849
01:34:59,830 --> 01:35:00,709
which, uh,

1850
01:35:01,410 --> 01:35:05,689
was an expression. We used a lot, you know, engines that lasted an hour.

1851
01:35:06,549 --> 01:35:07,370
Uh,

1852
01:35:08,259 --> 01:35:10,620
ours that lasted, you know, a lap.

1853
01:35:11,390 --> 01:35:12,180
Uh,

1854
01:35:12,859 --> 01:35:14,450
Max thought all that was

1855
01:35:14,819 --> 01:35:17,740
going to be unacceptable in the future world.

1856
01:35:18,870 --> 01:35:19,779
Um,

1857
01:35:20,589 --> 01:35:26,490
and the next thing he thought was that the kind of cartel

1858
01:35:26,910 --> 01:35:27,609
of

1859
01:35:27,850 --> 01:35:30,000
just a few teams at the top

1860
01:35:30,569 --> 01:35:31,149
and

1861
01:35:31,350 --> 01:35:34,970
bugger everybody else wasn't sustainable

1862
01:35:35,919 --> 01:35:39,060
and that we had to have a better construct

1863
01:35:39,520 --> 01:35:41,779
for involvement in Formula One.

1864
01:35:43,020 --> 01:35:49,080
And he was very aware that if we couldn't get the sustainability thing

1865
01:35:49,609 --> 01:35:52,120
right and get a sort of

1866
01:35:52,580 --> 01:35:57,000
overlap with what the car companies wanted,

1867
01:35:57,859 --> 01:35:59,879
the car companies would all leave.

1868
01:36:00,799 --> 01:36:06,660
And the car companies also needed to feel that there was a much sounder

1869
01:36:06,990 --> 01:36:09,779
financial basis for involvement.

1870
01:36:10,970 --> 01:36:11,790
So

1871
01:36:12,490 --> 01:36:14,509
Max was very keen on that.

1872
01:36:15,220 --> 01:36:16,879
Bernie, on the other hand,

1873
01:36:17,779 --> 01:36:19,160
just didn't agree.

1874
01:36:20,259 --> 01:36:25,049
Um, you know, Bernie's view was, um

1875
01:36:26,370 --> 01:36:29,029
don't worry about teams leaving,

1876
01:36:29,520 --> 01:36:31,430
Uh, in fact, he

1877
01:36:32,109 --> 01:36:37,120
I remember. He said to me, Tony, why are you so worried about the team's,

1878
01:36:38,029 --> 01:36:40,129
you know, at the bottom half of the grid?

1879
01:36:41,500 --> 01:36:43,009
They're owned by billionaires.

1880
01:36:44,939 --> 01:36:48,600
They'll spend more money than they ever dreamt possible. And then they'll leave

1881
01:36:48,939 --> 01:36:51,080
and then another billionaire will come along.

1882
01:36:51,229 --> 01:36:53,740
It's never been a problem. Don't worry about it.

1883
01:36:56,229 --> 01:36:56,330
You

1884
01:36:56,500 --> 01:36:56,520
know,

1885
01:36:57,600 --> 01:36:58,569
I'd give this sort

1886
01:36:58,709 --> 01:36:58,830
of

1887
01:36:59,290 --> 01:37:01,890
who you've got to give them hope. You've got to give them

1888
01:37:02,439 --> 01:37:06,229
belief that they can compete one day with Ferrari.

1889
01:37:07,569 --> 01:37:09,229
Uh, no, Tony,

1890
01:37:09,990 --> 01:37:15,100
we only need Ferrari and then a contender. Nothing else really matters.

1891
01:37:15,549 --> 01:37:20,069
And the races have always been boring. So why you keep going on about better racing?

1892
01:37:20,729 --> 01:37:22,330
I don't understand.

1893
01:37:23,899 --> 01:37:25,270
So he was he like,

1894
01:37:26,100 --> 01:37:27,919
Was it basically in his mind

1895
01:37:28,229 --> 01:37:31,240
for the glamour, for the sort of rich people? What?

1896
01:37:31,250 --> 01:37:34,580
You know what was what was driving Formula One then? Was it just

1897
01:37:34,709 --> 01:37:35,830
billionaires?

1898
01:37:37,149 --> 01:37:38,970
Cos what you're saying sounds more logical.

1899
01:37:38,979 --> 01:37:41,290
And what, Max like an eye to the future that

1900
01:37:41,549 --> 01:37:45,290
you have to have the car companies interested there has to be sustainable.

1901
01:37:46,660 --> 01:37:47,799
But his view was different.

1902
01:37:47,970 --> 01:37:51,669
His view was different. His view was it was the glamour

1903
01:37:52,160 --> 01:37:53,560
that attracted

1904
01:37:53,700 --> 01:37:55,439
money to Formula One.

1905
01:37:56,540 --> 01:37:58,600
Uh, there'd always be enough money.

1906
01:37:59,740 --> 01:38:00,839
Um,

1907
01:38:01,299 --> 01:38:01,640
you know,

1908
01:38:01,649 --> 01:38:06,890
because it was so glamorous and and it would it would always attract billionaires

1909
01:38:08,069 --> 01:38:09,500
and that

1910
01:38:10,640 --> 01:38:14,459
all that really mattered was that, uh,

1911
01:38:14,700 --> 01:38:18,299
there were two teams in the public eye each year

1912
01:38:18,770 --> 01:38:21,899
with two drivers competing against each other.

1913
01:38:22,109 --> 01:38:25,700
And as long as that happened every year with a,

1914
01:38:26,759 --> 01:38:32,899
uh, a grid of 20 other cars that for all he cared, could be painted grey.

1915
01:38:33,629 --> 01:38:34,439
Um,

1916
01:38:34,850 --> 01:38:37,370
you know, they had to be there. Yeah, for sure.

1917
01:38:37,950 --> 01:38:40,609
And they had to provide the old crash. But

1918
01:38:40,959 --> 01:38:43,629
you know they didn't really matter. What mattered was

1919
01:38:43,799 --> 01:38:45,729
just the top of the pile.

1920
01:38:46,220 --> 01:38:49,330
And that's what the public related to. And

1921
01:38:49,439 --> 01:38:50,259
that's what,

1922
01:38:50,979 --> 01:38:53,470
uh, built superheroes,

1923
01:38:54,470 --> 01:38:56,479
and, you know, he wasn't wrong.

1924
01:38:57,109 --> 01:38:59,009
But Bernie was

1925
01:39:00,009 --> 01:39:03,020
he is he He is still

1926
01:39:03,129 --> 01:39:05,109
staggeringly bright.

1927
01:39:06,370 --> 01:39:09,660
And he had a real vision for Formula One

1928
01:39:10,850 --> 01:39:12,350
and which he delivered on.

1929
01:39:13,930 --> 01:39:14,770
And

1930
01:39:14,899 --> 01:39:15,910
I think that

1931
01:39:17,270 --> 01:39:19,970
when I joined the FIA in,

1932
01:39:20,770 --> 01:39:21,379
uh,

1933
01:39:21,799 --> 01:39:24,720
20 06. I think,

1934
01:39:25,479 --> 01:39:28,339
uh, it was peak Burnie,

1935
01:39:29,580 --> 01:39:34,020
and, you know, it was sort of all beginning to

1936
01:39:34,470 --> 01:39:36,000
lose its way.

1937
01:39:37,049 --> 01:39:38,060
Um,

1938
01:39:38,669 --> 01:39:43,830
and then it was kind of reinvented by liberty media when they bought it out.

1939
01:39:44,729 --> 01:39:45,740
Uh, all

1940
01:39:46,200 --> 01:39:51,339
all for the better. So, you know, Bernie was a creature of his time,

1941
01:39:51,830 --> 01:39:52,310
but

1942
01:39:52,589 --> 01:39:56,350
I always felt that the way Bernie operated was unnecessary.

1943
01:39:57,410 --> 01:39:58,229
Um,

1944
01:39:58,939 --> 01:40:03,279
he he he he he could have been much more

1945
01:40:03,509 --> 01:40:05,399
straightforward, shall we say?

1946
01:40:06,290 --> 01:40:07,080
Um, because he

1947
01:40:07,629 --> 01:40:08,560
used to, um,

1948
01:40:08,830 --> 01:40:08,970
you know,

1949
01:40:10,799 --> 01:40:12,500
I used to watch interviews.

1950
01:40:12,919 --> 01:40:16,259
Um, when I was kind of growing up or in the

1951
01:40:16,649 --> 01:40:18,589
whenever, however old I was

1952
01:40:18,879 --> 01:40:21,709
and it looked like the journalists were scared to speak to,

1953
01:40:21,720 --> 01:40:24,250
were scared to ask him a difficult question.

1954
01:40:24,310 --> 01:40:27,270
It looked like they genuinely were, like, fearful.

1955
01:40:27,859 --> 01:40:30,040
And like you said, it almost did seem like,

1956
01:40:31,200 --> 01:40:31,370
uh,

1957
01:40:31,580 --> 01:40:35,520
yeah, like a fear a feared character. Was Was that how you saw that?

1958
01:40:35,529 --> 01:40:36,899
People were genuinely

1959
01:40:37,290 --> 01:40:38,049
sort of

1960
01:40:38,310 --> 01:40:40,060
didn't want to push him too far.

1961
01:40:40,520 --> 01:40:41,229
Definitely.

1962
01:40:42,049 --> 01:40:42,930
Definitely.

1963
01:40:43,229 --> 01:40:43,830
You.

1964
01:40:44,430 --> 01:40:46,660
You know, Bernie wanted

1965
01:40:46,890 --> 01:40:49,589
to Formula One to be kind of

1966
01:40:49,859 --> 01:40:52,229
his extended family. In a way,

1967
01:40:53,459 --> 01:40:54,279
um,

1968
01:40:54,759 --> 01:40:57,839
and you didn't cross him because he was the godfather.

1969
01:40:58,879 --> 01:40:59,779
Um,

1970
01:41:00,580 --> 01:41:01,700
if you

1971
01:41:02,140 --> 01:41:03,339
if you went with him,

1972
01:41:04,220 --> 01:41:08,040
you know, he could be a pretty good godfather, and he'd look after you.

1973
01:41:09,069 --> 01:41:10,029
Um

1974
01:41:11,470 --> 01:41:12,620
and so

1975
01:41:13,169 --> 01:41:14,770
people like Toyota

1976
01:41:15,109 --> 01:41:17,529
Super professional, You know,

1977
01:41:17,669 --> 01:41:18,490
corporate.

1978
01:41:20,520 --> 01:41:23,000
They were absolutely.

1979
01:41:24,689 --> 01:41:27,990
They couldn't get their heads around the way Formula One was run.

1980
01:41:28,939 --> 01:41:29,979
Um,

1981
01:41:30,640 --> 01:41:31,660
you know, and they

1982
01:41:32,479 --> 01:41:36,979
they they'd send these directors to team meetings and

1983
01:41:37,580 --> 01:41:38,620
team meetings.

1984
01:41:39,069 --> 01:41:41,700
I remember 11 chap from Toyota big

1985
01:41:42,049 --> 01:41:44,919
shaking his head with just horror

1986
01:41:47,080 --> 01:41:49,660
the way the meeting was being conducted.

1987
01:41:50,370 --> 01:41:51,259
So,

1988
01:41:51,830 --> 01:41:54,669
yeah, back then it was a little

1989
01:41:54,870 --> 01:41:57,310
as you say, a little bit wild. Westy.

1990
01:41:58,129 --> 01:41:58,859
Um

1991
01:42:00,430 --> 01:42:01,729
And, um,

1992
01:42:01,870 --> 01:42:04,310
how long were you there for then? At the FIA.

1993
01:42:05,229 --> 01:42:05,770
I left.

1994
01:42:05,930 --> 01:42:07,399
You move on from the FA,

1995
01:42:08,810 --> 01:42:12,629
so basically it was the Max Mosley sex scandal.

1996
01:42:13,080 --> 01:42:13,830
Um,

1997
01:42:15,109 --> 01:42:15,689
you know,

1998
01:42:17,350 --> 01:42:19,609
and, uh, you know, John Todd

1999
01:42:20,470 --> 01:42:22,729
came and replaced Max.

2000
01:42:23,629 --> 01:42:25,000
Um, well,

2001
01:42:25,870 --> 01:42:27,040
Max

2002
01:42:27,140 --> 01:42:28,009
and I,

2003
01:42:28,810 --> 01:42:31,509
I thought I had quite a good rapport.

2004
01:42:32,720 --> 01:42:33,640
Um,

2005
01:42:34,229 --> 01:42:37,779
I think Max liked my off the wall ideas.

2006
01:42:38,899 --> 01:42:39,870
Um,

2007
01:42:40,990 --> 01:42:41,859
uh, Jean

2008
01:42:41,979 --> 01:42:43,810
Todd had no time for me at all.

2009
01:42:45,279 --> 01:42:45,540
It was

2010
01:42:45,680 --> 01:42:47,240
clearly just

2011
01:42:47,850 --> 01:42:49,069
a nonstarter

2012
01:42:49,959 --> 01:42:51,660
for me working with John.

2013
01:42:51,970 --> 01:42:52,500
Um,

2014
01:42:53,819 --> 01:42:54,740
so,

2015
01:42:54,919 --> 01:42:56,540
yeah, that that was that,

2016
01:42:56,850 --> 01:42:58,040
Um, So I

2017
01:42:58,279 --> 01:43:03,149
remember the sex scandal, the news of the world thing and thinking Oh, God.

2018
01:43:03,870 --> 01:43:04,390
You know,

2019
01:43:05,430 --> 01:43:06,770
it's time to move on.

2020
01:43:07,310 --> 01:43:09,209
This hasn't gone away too well,

2021
01:43:09,819 --> 01:43:10,359
so

2022
01:43:11,580 --> 01:43:14,520
but it it was a shame because, uh,

2023
01:43:14,709 --> 01:43:17,279
Charlie Whiting I had a load of time for

2024
01:43:17,939 --> 01:43:19,709
it was very good to work with.

2025
01:43:20,259 --> 01:43:22,000
And very sharp,

2026
01:43:23,000 --> 01:43:24,140
very sharp.

2027
01:43:24,620 --> 01:43:25,540
You know, we

2028
01:43:26,870 --> 01:43:30,890
we had all these meetings about how to make, um,

2029
01:43:32,419 --> 01:43:34,319
they're racing more competitive.

2030
01:43:34,569 --> 01:43:39,120
And I said, Well, you've got to compensate for the lack of down force.

2031
01:43:39,830 --> 01:43:45,250
So my solution was to allow, uh, adjustable ride height.

2032
01:43:46,290 --> 01:43:48,470
If you were in the wake of another car

2033
01:43:49,149 --> 01:43:52,790
and then all the calculations said you should be able to keep up,

2034
01:43:52,799 --> 01:43:54,089
and then you lost that

2035
01:43:54,569 --> 01:43:56,609
when you were overtaking,

2036
01:43:57,759 --> 01:43:59,330
but Charlie,

2037
01:43:59,500 --> 01:44:00,629
you know,

2038
01:44:01,549 --> 01:44:03,410
was was, was was

2039
01:44:03,660 --> 01:44:07,740
much more tuned in. And he Oh, we can't have that, Tony, because

2040
01:44:08,049 --> 01:44:10,759
people won't be able to see the difference.

2041
01:44:11,629 --> 01:44:16,649
And so I think it was Charlie who came up with Why don't we flick the real wing

2042
01:44:18,379 --> 01:44:21,459
the low drag? Because the public can see it.

2043
01:44:22,229 --> 01:44:26,450
And then there's no mystery about the rules. You know,

2044
01:44:26,899 --> 01:44:29,729
we we can be seen to be fair,

2045
01:44:30,709 --> 01:44:34,359
and and he came up with the Three Sectors idea.

2046
01:44:34,540 --> 01:44:38,370
I mean, these came out of meetings. It's wrong to say it was one

2047
01:44:38,620 --> 01:44:39,490
person's idea,

2048
01:44:39,890 --> 01:44:40,470
but

2049
01:44:40,709 --> 01:44:41,810
Charlie

2050
01:44:42,299 --> 01:44:43,810
absolutely

2051
01:44:43,979 --> 01:44:47,189
understood that that was an acceptable

2052
01:44:48,129 --> 01:44:51,350
overtaking mechanism for the fans.

2053
01:44:51,870 --> 01:44:53,830
And very importantly, the teams,

2054
01:44:54,299 --> 01:44:57,790
you know, because the teams view the FIA with deep suspicion.

2055
01:44:58,870 --> 01:44:59,479
Um,

2056
01:44:59,700 --> 01:45:00,439
and you know,

2057
01:45:00,649 --> 01:45:01,640
they still do.

2058
01:45:02,009 --> 01:45:02,209
I

2059
01:45:02,540 --> 01:45:02,799
think

2060
01:45:04,020 --> 01:45:06,520
you remember traction control

2061
01:45:07,109 --> 01:45:08,200
and things like that.

2062
01:45:08,500 --> 01:45:10,799
All those disputes

2063
01:45:11,819 --> 01:45:14,729
Well, you know, But do you think the, um

2064
01:45:15,430 --> 01:45:18,689
does that paranoia that I see them still have?

2065
01:45:18,790 --> 01:45:21,660
Is that because you think of the sort of Bernie Ecclestone

2066
01:45:21,899 --> 01:45:26,890
core era where there was these sort of side deals going on so they never really knew

2067
01:45:27,109 --> 01:45:32,330
if that rule was being Do you think this it harks back to that era. Do you think when the

2068
01:45:32,620 --> 01:45:33,629
Yeah, they

2069
01:45:34,720 --> 01:45:39,950
So the nature of the thing at the top was the piranha club. You know,

2070
01:45:40,140 --> 01:45:40,819
um,

2071
01:45:41,959 --> 01:45:43,419
bite or be bitten.

2072
01:45:43,930 --> 01:45:44,620
Um,

2073
01:45:46,169 --> 01:45:51,680
and that sort of diffused a bit to the engineers as well. A little bit.

2074
01:45:51,689 --> 01:45:54,930
And there was a real ruthless about everything

2075
01:45:55,669 --> 01:45:59,450
and total mistrust, Total mistrust of

2076
01:45:59,680 --> 01:46:01,410
everybody and everything.

2077
01:46:02,350 --> 01:46:03,279
Um,

2078
01:46:04,000 --> 01:46:05,319
so yeah,

2079
01:46:05,689 --> 01:46:06,819
yeah. Um,

2080
01:46:07,109 --> 01:46:07,669
but,

2081
01:46:08,390 --> 01:46:11,899
you know, we we we did the DRS, uh,

2082
01:46:12,049 --> 01:46:14,479
hats off to Charlie. There. We

2083
01:46:14,779 --> 01:46:16,819
we schemed up the new engine,

2084
01:46:16,939 --> 01:46:19,740
which was designed to

2085
01:46:20,000 --> 01:46:22,490
try and bring in, uh, this

2086
01:46:22,939 --> 01:46:25,049
electric element to it

2087
01:46:26,229 --> 01:46:26,879
and

2088
01:46:27,129 --> 01:46:30,399
scavenging all the energy one could

2089
01:46:31,029 --> 01:46:31,569
to

2090
01:46:31,870 --> 01:46:36,009
to be put back into the, uh, the electric system.

2091
01:46:36,689 --> 01:46:41,180
And Max was very keen on that, and we wrote the rules. But,

2092
01:46:41,580 --> 01:46:44,540
you know, here's the

2093
01:46:44,770 --> 01:46:46,450
skullduggery of it because,

2094
01:46:46,660 --> 01:46:47,439
uh,

2095
01:46:47,729 --> 01:46:52,770
we were quite enamoured by going smaller with the engines,

2096
01:46:53,330 --> 01:46:56,890
much less power and reintroducing a bit of down force,

2097
01:46:57,660 --> 01:47:02,399
you know, by freeing up the underside of the car.

2098
01:47:02,930 --> 01:47:06,069
And we spoke a lot with people like Paul

2099
01:47:06,379 --> 01:47:06,660
Shady,

2100
01:47:07,439 --> 01:47:11,959
and they were absolutely clear that they wanted a

2101
01:47:12,270 --> 01:47:17,180
big overlap with the major problems that they faced.

2102
01:47:17,580 --> 01:47:19,450
Going forward with the road cars,

2103
01:47:21,640 --> 01:47:23,100
Mr. Ferrari

2104
01:47:24,830 --> 01:47:24,890
Mhm.

2105
01:47:27,649 --> 01:47:30,560
They, uh, they realised that,

2106
01:47:30,859 --> 01:47:31,799
uh,

2107
01:47:32,970 --> 01:47:36,680
the last thing they wanted was, uh, people like Porsche

2108
01:47:36,859 --> 01:47:37,990
Audi to come in

2109
01:47:38,700 --> 01:47:44,140
with new sets of rules which Ferrari didn't understand.

2110
01:47:44,959 --> 01:47:49,149
And, you know, the way Ferrari would

2111
01:47:50,879 --> 01:47:56,069
use their politics to get the engine rules changed to something

2112
01:47:56,419 --> 01:47:56,859
that

2113
01:47:57,029 --> 01:47:58,859
they thought was OK

2114
01:47:59,529 --> 01:48:02,189
was, uh, you know, quite an eye opener.

2115
01:48:03,370 --> 01:48:03,620
Um

2116
01:48:05,350 --> 01:48:07,009
uh, and so you moved

2117
01:48:08,229 --> 01:48:09,810
then. Then we did the budget cap

2118
01:48:10,970 --> 01:48:11,620
and

2119
01:48:11,859 --> 01:48:12,790
which was big,

2120
01:48:13,439 --> 01:48:15,740
which was a huge project for us.

2121
01:48:16,399 --> 01:48:23,779
And, uh, I remember Ferrari taking me aside and telling me in no uncertain terms

2122
01:48:23,979 --> 01:48:27,649
that Ferrari would never support a budget cap

2123
01:48:28,540 --> 01:48:31,810
and would do everything they could to stop it.

2124
01:48:33,319 --> 01:48:35,689
Um, because it was their advantage.

2125
01:48:36,069 --> 01:48:37,169
So, you know.

2126
01:48:38,740 --> 01:48:38,770
Yeah,

2127
01:48:39,549 --> 01:48:39,759
that

2128
01:48:40,379 --> 01:48:42,330
that's incredible. So you, um

2129
01:48:43,160 --> 01:48:47,240
So you ended up having to leave the FIA essentially again, uh,

2130
01:48:47,930 --> 01:48:50,350
what seems to be a thing in Formula One, Sort of.

2131
01:48:50,649 --> 01:48:54,379
If you have personalities, don't match or, you know, like

2132
01:48:54,479 --> 01:48:55,430
in the, um,

2133
01:48:56,459 --> 01:49:00,100
the example of, uh, in your early earlier time.

2134
01:49:00,109 --> 01:49:03,399
You know, when you said people came in at, you know, Jaguar or others

2135
01:49:03,839 --> 01:49:06,240
So I guess you could have stayed around

2136
01:49:06,700 --> 01:49:09,080
Formula One. But at that time, were you kind of

2137
01:49:09,979 --> 01:49:12,799
wanting a change at that point? Do you think

2138
01:49:15,669 --> 01:49:16,459
so?

2139
01:49:16,689 --> 01:49:17,359
I think,

2140
01:49:18,270 --> 01:49:20,770
yes. I wanted to change for sure.

2141
01:49:21,990 --> 01:49:23,609
I think that,

2142
01:49:23,720 --> 01:49:24,009
um

2143
01:49:26,319 --> 01:49:27,600
actually,

2144
01:49:28,020 --> 01:49:28,029
I

2145
01:49:28,660 --> 01:49:33,500
was working with Max and Peter That enabled me

2146
01:49:34,390 --> 01:49:36,529
to make a contribution, because

2147
01:49:37,419 --> 01:49:42,439
you know where I'm politically naive. Max was politically a supreme.

2148
01:49:43,580 --> 01:49:47,919
Um, Peter Wright was very, very good as well. Charlie as well,

2149
01:49:48,729 --> 01:49:50,509
you know, all that sort of

2150
01:49:51,560 --> 01:49:52,850
exploding,

2151
01:49:53,270 --> 01:49:53,819
um,

2152
01:49:54,439 --> 01:49:55,979
made me kind of

2153
01:49:56,290 --> 01:50:01,129
question if I wanted to be there and whether if I had a real role anymore.

2154
01:50:01,950 --> 01:50:03,129
And also,

2155
01:50:03,310 --> 01:50:07,649
uh, I felt that Formula One had become transparent.

2156
01:50:09,250 --> 01:50:10,299
Um,

2157
01:50:11,270 --> 01:50:12,950
I thought that

2158
01:50:14,339 --> 01:50:17,799
it could have been this fabulous sport,

2159
01:50:18,950 --> 01:50:20,660
the ultimate sport,

2160
01:50:20,810 --> 01:50:21,450
where

2161
01:50:21,899 --> 01:50:24,689
everybody had a same wad of money,

2162
01:50:24,899 --> 01:50:25,890
lots of money.

2163
01:50:27,259 --> 01:50:27,779
And

2164
01:50:28,250 --> 01:50:32,720
you had to be brilliant at management, brilliant at engineering,

2165
01:50:32,729 --> 01:50:34,740
have a brilliant driver

2166
01:50:35,310 --> 01:50:37,640
all within that management

2167
01:50:37,950 --> 01:50:39,080
policing

2168
01:50:40,129 --> 01:50:42,560
that is forced by a budget.

2169
01:50:43,580 --> 01:50:46,500
It's very idealistic, Neil, but I think that

2170
01:50:47,620 --> 01:50:51,930
that's like the ultimate sport bringing together people from

2171
01:50:52,189 --> 01:50:56,189
all different walks of life to to play the game.

2172
01:50:56,600 --> 01:50:58,839
And you could have 10 teams,

2173
01:50:59,140 --> 01:51:01,229
you know, kind of on an equal footing.

2174
01:51:02,029 --> 01:51:02,729
But, uh,

2175
01:51:03,279 --> 01:51:07,470
yeah, that sort of naivety need somebody like Max to,

2176
01:51:08,660 --> 01:51:12,140
you know, say, Oh, yeah, OK, but we can't do that.

2177
01:51:12,580 --> 01:51:14,589
That's a decade long programme,

2178
01:51:14,879 --> 01:51:15,330
Not

2179
01:51:15,779 --> 01:51:16,830
a one year thing.

2180
01:51:17,750 --> 01:51:19,220
So yeah, I, I

2181
01:51:19,439 --> 01:51:22,390
think it was the right time to leave.

2182
01:51:23,319 --> 01:51:23,609
Yeah.

2183
01:51:25,439 --> 01:51:27,319
And so what did you go on to next?

2184
01:51:27,500 --> 01:51:29,279
I guess you had many options.

2185
01:51:29,529 --> 01:51:30,779
You could have gone in different

2186
01:51:31,669 --> 01:51:31,879
ways.

2187
01:51:33,419 --> 01:51:33,450
I.

2188
01:51:33,529 --> 01:51:37,740
I just think I've had a blessed life because, you know,

2189
01:51:37,750 --> 01:51:41,479
the FIA thing was all exploding.

2190
01:51:41,490 --> 01:51:42,189
And, um,

2191
01:51:43,919 --> 01:51:47,740
John John didn't want me. That was crystal clear.

2192
01:51:48,770 --> 01:51:49,740
Um,

2193
01:51:50,520 --> 01:51:51,970
And then the phone rang,

2194
01:51:53,200 --> 01:51:54,879
and it’s Chris Boardman.

2195
01:51:56,049 --> 01:51:56,209
Mhm.

2196
01:51:58,660 --> 01:51:59,220
You know,

2197
01:52:00,029 --> 01:52:06,540
being a cycling nut in my youth. Uh, and, uh, actually,

2198
01:52:07,259 --> 01:52:09,089
having restarted,

2199
01:52:09,430 --> 01:52:10,609
uh, cycling

2200
01:52:11,339 --> 01:52:13,189
when, um

2201
01:52:14,259 --> 01:52:17,319
uh I I left Red Bull. I started cycling again.

2202
01:52:18,350 --> 01:52:20,229
Um, I'm racing again.

2203
01:52:20,750 --> 01:52:23,459
Um, Chris said, Oh,

2204
01:52:23,660 --> 01:52:26,459
you know, I've heard about this guy who's racing his bike,

2205
01:52:27,310 --> 01:52:31,089
uh, races every weekend. And, um,

2206
01:52:31,220 --> 01:52:34,060
you know, comes from Formula One and

2207
01:52:37,149 --> 01:52:40,709
I'm the technical leader at British cycling and we

2208
01:52:41,040 --> 01:52:42,890
you know, I. I think I've

2209
01:52:43,779 --> 01:52:46,430
I'm out of ideas. It needs somebody new.

2210
01:52:47,379 --> 01:52:48,319
Um,

2211
01:52:48,649 --> 01:52:51,759
So I met a couple of times with Chris,

2212
01:52:52,240 --> 01:52:55,879
and we arranged it for 2012,

2213
01:52:56,080 --> 01:52:59,560
just after the London Olympics that I joined

2214
01:53:00,100 --> 01:53:02,160
as the sort of technical it

2215
01:53:02,799 --> 01:53:06,299
was called the Secret Secret Squirrel Club back in those

2216
01:53:06,540 --> 01:53:06,720
days,

2217
01:53:07,790 --> 01:53:08,000
and

2218
01:53:08,919 --> 01:53:11,200
articles were written about this sort of

2219
01:53:11,609 --> 01:53:13,200
crazed bunch

2220
01:53:13,859 --> 01:53:17,160
who used engineering to make the cycling team quicker,

2221
01:53:18,359 --> 01:53:23,339
and that really appealed to me And the complete divorce from Formula One.

2222
01:53:24,319 --> 01:53:25,129
Um,

2223
01:53:25,899 --> 01:53:26,450
which I

2224
01:53:27,040 --> 01:53:29,600
I was getting a bit cynical about, um,

2225
01:53:30,500 --> 01:53:32,520
was was good for for me.

2226
01:53:33,410 --> 01:53:35,509
And so I jumped into that,

2227
01:53:36,740 --> 01:53:37,529
and

2228
01:53:38,669 --> 01:53:39,390
I was

2229
01:53:39,569 --> 01:53:41,589
Yeah, really glad I did, uh,

2230
01:53:41,600 --> 01:53:46,500
took me a year or so to realise how different it was from Formula One.

2231
01:53:47,379 --> 01:53:47,919
You know,

2232
01:53:48,359 --> 01:53:49,000
the

2233
01:53:49,290 --> 01:53:50,379
the athletes were

2234
01:53:51,770 --> 01:53:54,310
unbelievably dedicated

2235
01:53:54,759 --> 01:53:56,140
and talented.

2236
01:53:57,220 --> 01:53:58,200
Um,

2237
01:53:59,109 --> 01:53:59,930
and

2238
01:54:00,520 --> 01:54:01,390
you know,

2239
01:54:01,859 --> 01:54:05,180
people like Formula One, they're in it for passion.

2240
01:54:06,459 --> 01:54:07,240
Um, but

2241
01:54:07,450 --> 01:54:11,979
what I didn't get was how human it is compared to Formula One.

2242
01:54:12,120 --> 01:54:13,319
You know, in Formula One,

2243
01:54:14,549 --> 01:54:15,379
the driver

2244
01:54:15,930 --> 01:54:18,120
is just, like, bolted in,

2245
01:54:19,169 --> 01:54:19,740
and

2246
01:54:19,970 --> 01:54:22,259
no one ever doubts the engineering.

2247
01:54:22,500 --> 01:54:25,339
It's like if the engineers say it's quicker,

2248
01:54:26,310 --> 01:54:29,169
you know, get on and drive it, so to speak.

2249
01:54:30,419 --> 01:54:35,910
It's just not like that. Cycling. When I first joined, there was

2250
01:54:37,120 --> 01:54:39,459
a lot of doubt

2251
01:54:39,979 --> 01:54:42,250
Whether aerodynamics

2252
01:54:42,459 --> 01:54:45,620
was was actually as important

2253
01:54:46,080 --> 01:54:48,540
as Tony seems to think, think it is.

2254
01:54:49,549 --> 01:54:51,529
And, you know,

2255
01:54:52,359 --> 01:54:56,259
I was kind of ranted at a few times saying,

2256
01:54:56,359 --> 01:54:56,370
Uh,

2257
01:54:56,890 --> 01:55:01,419
I just didn't understand what it was like to be a professional cyclist.

2258
01:55:01,850 --> 01:55:07,229
And the things that we were asking them to do for aerodynamic game was

2259
01:55:07,410 --> 01:55:08,580
like crazy.

2260
01:55:09,410 --> 01:55:10,299
Um,

2261
01:55:11,180 --> 01:55:11,779
but,

2262
01:55:12,279 --> 01:55:13,350
you know, we

2263
01:55:13,490 --> 01:55:18,439
once the penny dropped and it took a year for the penny to drop, I guess. Then

2264
01:55:18,770 --> 01:55:24,319
I got into it more and more, and I think that's when we started working together.

2265
01:55:25,439 --> 01:55:30,450
And I think I was absolutely stunned

2266
01:55:30,640 --> 01:55:34,229
by the difference engineering could make

2267
01:55:34,470 --> 01:55:36,060
to an Olympic sport.

2268
01:55:36,660 --> 01:55:36,919
Uh,

2269
01:55:37,959 --> 01:55:40,040
you know, I kind of thought,

2270
01:55:40,680 --> 01:55:41,129
Yeah,

2271
01:55:42,470 --> 01:55:47,689
I believed in the Marginal Gains dream, you know? Oh, it's

2272
01:55:48,339 --> 01:55:52,330
not that we do anything Well, it's just small increments, you know.

2273
01:55:53,759 --> 01:55:57,770
And then I got into the engineering side and thought,

2274
01:55:58,379 --> 01:56:02,580
Blimey, it's not small increments. It's great. Whopping,

2275
01:56:02,779 --> 01:56:03,959
huge increments.

2276
01:56:05,290 --> 01:56:10,209
And that was a big, um, important time, then, wasn't it? Like what? How, um

2277
01:56:10,569 --> 01:56:13,799
what was the overlap? I'm guessing for people listening. The interest.

2278
01:56:14,000 --> 01:56:19,180
British, You know, British cycling. You know, the the performance at the Olympics

2279
01:56:19,490 --> 01:56:23,189
was globally, you know, it was transformative for sport,

2280
01:56:23,200 --> 01:56:24,870
but also the biking industry.

2281
01:56:25,009 --> 01:56:30,350
But what about then? The rise of Team Sky and people like Dave Brailsford?

2282
01:56:30,359 --> 01:56:34,450
How How How would these sequence of events were? Were they completely separate?

2283
01:56:34,459 --> 01:56:36,310
Was there quite a large overlap?

2284
01:56:37,259 --> 01:56:41,890
No. So when I joined, I thought I'd be working with Dave Brailsford.

2285
01:56:42,910 --> 01:56:46,399
I. I thought, uh, basically I'd be his sort of right hand man

2286
01:56:46,629 --> 01:56:48,270
on the technical side.

2287
01:56:49,439 --> 01:56:50,140
And

2288
01:56:50,660 --> 01:56:56,080
almost immediately it was clear that there was a conflict of

2289
01:56:56,959 --> 01:57:00,819
interests with him forming Team Sky

2290
01:57:01,080 --> 01:57:02,450
as a professional team

2291
01:57:02,870 --> 01:57:06,979
and him staying on with a government supported

2292
01:57:07,220 --> 01:57:08,580
national governing body.

2293
01:57:09,629 --> 01:57:10,520
Um

2294
01:57:11,169 --> 01:57:13,430
and so it happened quite

2295
01:57:13,930 --> 01:57:22,000
quickly and quietly that Dave was kind of spirited away from the BRI British team

2296
01:57:22,859 --> 01:57:23,649
and

2297
01:57:23,810 --> 01:57:27,520
they the any connection with Team Sky

2298
01:57:28,020 --> 01:57:29,649
was separated

2299
01:57:30,560 --> 01:57:31,290
and

2300
01:57:31,819 --> 01:57:35,729
that was driven by UK Sport, saying it was just unacceptable

2301
01:57:36,689 --> 01:57:37,779
for,

2302
01:57:38,080 --> 01:57:39,589
you know, that conflict.

2303
01:57:40,160 --> 01:57:44,049
That was a great shame because Dave is, uh, he can

2304
01:57:44,540 --> 01:57:49,029
he He did teach me, uh, about sales.

2305
01:57:49,649 --> 01:57:52,549
Uh, I thought I'd seen some great salesmen.

2306
01:57:54,020 --> 01:57:54,540
Dave

2307
01:57:54,950 --> 01:57:58,549
Brailsford's selling to UK Sport was

2308
01:58:01,879 --> 01:58:03,439
beyond an eye opener.

2309
01:58:03,790 --> 01:58:05,419
He was

2310
01:58:06,370 --> 01:58:08,500
really, really good

2311
01:58:09,540 --> 01:58:14,209
at stating his case. In a way, I'd never seen anyone do before.

2312
01:58:15,220 --> 01:58:15,939
Um,

2313
01:58:16,759 --> 01:58:20,180
so at least I had a tiny overlap with Dave,

2314
01:58:21,310 --> 01:58:25,330
uh, going into Rio? Uh, yeah, three years before Rio.

2315
01:58:25,970 --> 01:58:30,129
Um, and then Dave disappeared, and, um,

2316
01:58:31,399 --> 01:58:32,580
I just worked

2317
01:58:33,399 --> 01:58:35,759
a little bit of an overlap with Chris Boardman.

2318
01:58:35,770 --> 01:58:39,220
And then Chris, uh, stepped away completely.

2319
01:58:40,240 --> 01:58:41,169
Um

2320
01:58:41,879 --> 01:58:46,740
uh, but enough of an overlap for me to to go. Wow.

2321
01:58:46,750 --> 01:58:49,700
Engineering really works for this sport.

2322
01:58:50,790 --> 01:58:54,770
Um, and I, I used to quote regularly the

2323
01:58:55,379 --> 01:59:01,700
world record for the 1500 metres, which had improved a second in 25 years

2324
01:59:02,109 --> 01:59:04,790
and then the world record at the time for

2325
01:59:04,799 --> 01:59:08,470
a four minute event kind of equivalent team pursuit.

2326
01:59:09,109 --> 01:59:11,720
And that had dropped by, uh,

2327
01:59:12,799 --> 01:59:21,339
15 seconds or something even more. It it dropped again and again and got to

2328
01:59:21,770 --> 01:59:24,779
23 seconds. And then, uh,

2329
01:59:25,310 --> 01:59:27,129
you know, I think it's

2330
01:59:27,229 --> 01:59:32,169
it's beyond that. Well, well beyond that After Tokyo.

2331
01:59:32,359 --> 01:59:33,700
Um, so,

2332
01:59:34,450 --> 01:59:35,750
um yeah,

2333
01:59:35,950 --> 01:59:36,870
you know,

2334
01:59:36,990 --> 01:59:37,629
And

2335
01:59:38,529 --> 01:59:38,979
it

2336
01:59:39,140 --> 01:59:42,270
it was fooling yourself to think that coaching

2337
01:59:42,549 --> 01:59:43,790
had improved

2338
01:59:44,580 --> 01:59:47,169
that much in cycling, and not that

2339
01:59:47,450 --> 01:59:51,459
not at all. In athletics, it was clear as day

2340
01:59:52,319 --> 01:59:53,000
technology.

2341
01:59:54,169 --> 01:59:57,060
But what was it like, the difference? Um,

2342
01:59:57,259 --> 02:00:01,629
you know, obviously working Formula One and the FIA and then you had to deal with the the UCI.

2343
02:00:01,930 --> 02:00:05,859
How much of a difference was there with working?

2344
02:00:05,870 --> 02:00:08,209
You know, under the rules, the technical regulations,

2345
02:00:08,220 --> 02:00:10,259
the sporting regulations of Formula One,

2346
02:00:10,479 --> 02:00:14,220
and then to the UCI was Was it similar? Was it was it different?

2347
02:00:14,899 --> 02:00:19,959
I think my experience with the FIA really helped, actually because, um,

2348
02:00:20,720 --> 02:00:26,680
any, uh, relationship we had with the FIA

2349
02:00:27,189 --> 02:00:28,600
with the UCI.

2350
02:00:29,839 --> 02:00:33,689
I approached, like the good guys in Formula One,

2351
02:00:34,649 --> 02:00:39,350
Uh, who told us what they were doing. Said, How do you think about this?

2352
02:00:39,799 --> 02:00:40,279
What's your

2353
02:00:41,319 --> 02:00:41,790
email?

2354
02:00:44,939 --> 02:00:45,629
Um,

2355
02:00:46,830 --> 02:00:47,520
so

2356
02:00:48,169 --> 02:00:48,779
I

2357
02:00:50,069 --> 02:00:54,229
That's the That's the approach I took with the UCI.

2358
02:00:54,240 --> 02:00:56,890
And I thought they were pretty good. Actually. I thought

2359
02:00:57,689 --> 02:01:03,310
the guys that we dealt with tried to understand where we were coming from.

2360
02:01:04,259 --> 02:01:06,919
Um gave their points of view

2361
02:01:08,060 --> 02:01:11,410
and we tried to show them stuff early.

2362
02:01:12,470 --> 02:01:13,399
Um,

2363
02:01:13,899 --> 02:01:18,209
I have to say that I don't think they were very switched on

2364
02:01:18,529 --> 02:01:20,330
going into Rio

2365
02:01:21,120 --> 02:01:27,129
because the complexities of aerodynamics was just sort of catching up with people.

2366
02:01:27,830 --> 02:01:31,500
But after Rio, I think they were super switched on

2367
02:01:32,390 --> 02:01:33,270
and,

2368
02:01:33,390 --> 02:01:35,810
you know, wanted to do right by the sport.

2369
02:01:36,799 --> 02:01:37,540
Uh,

2370
02:01:38,680 --> 02:01:39,509
and

2371
02:01:39,939 --> 02:01:43,109
so working with them was the only way.

2372
02:01:43,620 --> 02:01:47,419
If you tried to pull a fast one with them,

2373
02:01:48,120 --> 02:01:49,859
you you were gonna come a cropper.

2374
02:01:51,060 --> 02:01:51,540
Um,

2375
02:01:52,620 --> 02:01:53,350
so

2376
02:01:53,859 --> 02:01:54,629
and

2377
02:01:54,729 --> 02:01:56,399
And the great thing was,

2378
02:01:56,720 --> 02:02:01,140
is that they thought that the technology that the

2379
02:02:01,399 --> 02:02:07,759
national bodies created on the track was fundamentally good for the sport

2380
02:02:08,209 --> 02:02:09,520
because it

2381
02:02:09,660 --> 02:02:12,859
attracted interest,

2382
02:02:13,009 --> 02:02:14,399
technical interest.

2383
02:02:14,700 --> 02:02:16,910
It attracted the manufacturers.

2384
02:02:17,180 --> 02:02:21,240
And the manufacturers were very important to everybody's financing.

2385
02:02:22,140 --> 02:02:26,759
Uh, and so they had this belief that fresh technology,

2386
02:02:27,689 --> 02:02:33,450
uh, was good for the sport. New bikes, new skin suits, new helmets.

2387
02:02:33,890 --> 02:02:36,189
They didn't want it to become

2388
02:02:36,520 --> 02:02:37,750
like Indy car,

2389
02:02:38,140 --> 02:02:40,350
you know, all standard equipment.

2390
02:02:40,580 --> 02:02:41,990
Nothing interesting.

2391
02:02:42,950 --> 02:02:45,859
Uh, that would have chased away the manufacturers.

2392
02:02:46,229 --> 02:02:46,930
So

2393
02:02:47,459 --> 02:02:48,089
there we go. It

2394
02:02:48,529 --> 02:02:48,959
it

2395
02:02:49,180 --> 02:02:51,529
is amazing to see, though, isn't it that

2396
02:02:52,020 --> 02:02:55,189
from the work that you did? And I guess Chris did as well.

2397
02:02:56,209 --> 02:03:00,109
If you look now and you watch GCN or or you watch, like, professional,

2398
02:03:00,120 --> 02:03:02,290
not track cycling, but road cycling,

2399
02:03:03,459 --> 02:03:04,680
aerodynamics,

2400
02:03:05,029 --> 02:03:06,640
you know it's everything, isn't it?

2401
02:03:06,649 --> 02:03:08,959
The skin suits like if you go out there just in

2402
02:03:08,970 --> 02:03:12,569
a normal bike or even on the most expensive bike,

2403
02:03:12,580 --> 02:03:15,310
but not a skin suit, you're gonna lose the TT.

2404
02:03:15,359 --> 02:03:16,359
It doesn't matter how

2405
02:03:16,640 --> 02:03:18,569
good your rider is, isn't it? It's like

2406
02:03:19,060 --> 02:03:25,160
I do. You see that link? Do you see now, looking back, how kind of the work that you did,

2407
02:03:26,040 --> 02:03:28,200
you know, influence what we see now?

2408
02:03:30,029 --> 02:03:32,930
I think I feel vaguely guilty about

2409
02:03:33,470 --> 02:03:33,490
it.

2410
02:03:33,859 --> 02:03:34,879
Well, I didn't

2411
02:03:34,979 --> 02:03:36,160
I was wondering,

2412
02:03:37,950 --> 02:03:38,720
you know,

2413
02:03:38,879 --> 02:03:39,490
um

2414
02:03:41,279 --> 02:03:42,100
because

2415
02:03:43,609 --> 02:03:46,009
I kind of don't think it's the right thing

2416
02:03:46,020 --> 02:03:50,589
for sport to have that extreme of technology.

2417
02:03:51,870 --> 02:03:52,620
Um,

2418
02:03:53,830 --> 02:03:54,850
so

2419
02:03:56,000 --> 02:03:56,459
and,

2420
02:03:57,419 --> 02:04:00,759
you know, I had my own experience, you know, I was a racing cyclist.

2421
02:04:00,770 --> 02:04:03,439
I never took time trial seriously at all.

2422
02:04:04,089 --> 02:04:05,779
I got this job in

2423
02:04:05,990 --> 02:04:08,910
2020 12. I knew it was coming.

2424
02:04:09,240 --> 02:04:10,109
I thought, Oh,

2425
02:04:10,250 --> 02:04:13,620
I better take aerodynamics seriously. Myself

2426
02:04:14,859 --> 02:04:15,649
and

2427
02:04:16,189 --> 02:04:17,009
I,

2428
02:04:17,200 --> 02:04:21,569
you know, the classic event in Britain is 25 mile time trial.

2429
02:04:22,259 --> 02:04:24,520
I dreamt of beating the hour,

2430
02:04:25,540 --> 02:04:26,120
you know?

2431
02:04:27,410 --> 02:04:32,839
And I think I'd done a 102 or something.

2432
02:04:33,790 --> 02:04:36,810
And I thought, Well, you know, I'm just not that good, you know?

2433
02:04:36,950 --> 02:04:38,490
And then I started taking

2434
02:04:38,879 --> 02:04:40,080
an interest in the

2435
02:04:40,810 --> 02:04:42,149
aerodynamics

2436
02:04:42,700 --> 02:04:43,310
and

2437
02:04:43,790 --> 02:04:47,990
honest to God for the same power. Almost to the what?

2438
02:04:48,970 --> 02:04:50,500
I went from

2439
02:04:50,859 --> 02:04:53,830
well over to well over an hour

2440
02:04:54,149 --> 02:04:56,750
to 53 minutes dead,

2441
02:04:57,970 --> 02:05:00,919
and that was 100%. That's a massive,

2442
02:05:01,759 --> 02:05:03,250
massive, massive.

2443
02:05:04,160 --> 02:05:04,629
And

2444
02:05:05,509 --> 02:05:09,399
when I realised how naive I was,

2445
02:05:10,799 --> 02:05:14,459
uh, during the time trials before I got the job,

2446
02:05:16,029 --> 02:05:18,390
uh, it's almost embarrassing,

2447
02:05:18,830 --> 02:05:19,850
you know, because

2448
02:05:20,759 --> 02:05:22,720
I knew all about aerodynamics,

2449
02:05:22,979 --> 02:05:23,970
but I just didn't

2450
02:05:24,569 --> 02:05:24,910
sort

2451
02:05:25,430 --> 02:05:27,319
it in the right way.

2452
02:05:28,120 --> 02:05:29,689
And, um

2453
02:05:30,680 --> 02:05:31,200
and, you know,

2454
02:05:31,209 --> 02:05:32,729
I now realise that I could have gone a

2455
02:05:32,740 --> 02:05:36,129
lot further because I didn't have a fancy skin suit

2456
02:05:36,330 --> 02:05:36,810
to

2457
02:05:37,109 --> 02:05:38,390
to do that time.

2458
02:05:39,000 --> 02:05:41,859
And as you know, you know, they're worth a lot. So,

2459
02:05:42,470 --> 02:05:43,020
um,

2460
02:05:44,359 --> 02:05:51,979
I, I do think that the era of being involved with British cycling changed cycling.

2461
02:05:51,990 --> 02:05:53,060
Fundamentally,

2462
02:05:53,959 --> 02:05:58,370
I think, at the pro level for the road racing,

2463
02:05:58,790 --> 02:06:00,459
it's been kind of good,

2464
02:06:01,709 --> 02:06:03,330
I think, for the track,

2465
02:06:04,169 --> 02:06:07,109
it's helped keep track alive. in a way,

2466
02:06:08,299 --> 02:06:08,879
um,

2467
02:06:11,500 --> 02:06:12,069
but

2468
02:06:12,970 --> 02:06:15,459
I think it's just gone too far. So

2469
02:06:16,009 --> 02:06:19,910
I changed the rules to having skin suits which were

2470
02:06:20,520 --> 02:06:21,700
basically, uh, you

2471
02:06:21,870 --> 02:06:25,200
you you'd have to have lumps or something

2472
02:06:25,709 --> 02:06:28,819
which would make them never work.

2473
02:06:29,790 --> 02:06:30,310
You know,

2474
02:06:32,020 --> 02:06:35,689
they'd be guaranteed to be like an old school

2475
02:06:36,120 --> 02:06:37,189
skin suit.

2476
02:06:37,580 --> 02:06:39,890
Um, I'd also change the

2477
02:06:40,020 --> 02:06:42,290
rules on positioning because,

2478
02:06:43,069 --> 02:06:43,640
uh,

2479
02:06:43,779 --> 02:06:45,689
I wrecked my back,

2480
02:06:46,029 --> 02:06:50,919
Uh, by trying to get into a time trial position.

2481
02:06:51,700 --> 02:06:51,819
You

2482
02:06:52,000 --> 02:06:52,020
know,

2483
02:06:52,259 --> 02:06:52,479
the

2484
02:06:54,299 --> 02:06:58,020
Dan Bigham has taken it to the stage where he’s

2485
02:06:58,029 --> 02:07:01,169
trained himself not not to look where he's going.

2486
02:07:01,890 --> 02:07:03,109
He just looks down

2487
02:07:03,430 --> 02:07:06,470
because it's a couple of percent less drag.

2488
02:07:07,129 --> 02:07:07,830
You know,

2489
02:07:07,990 --> 02:07:09,350
I think that's

2490
02:07:09,589 --> 02:07:10,520
nuts.

2491
02:07:11,060 --> 02:07:13,620
Uh, and the sport should move

2492
02:07:14,000 --> 02:07:16,229
to outlaw some of that stuff.

2493
02:07:17,029 --> 02:07:17,850
Um,

2494
02:07:18,740 --> 02:07:19,930
and you know,

2495
02:07:20,950 --> 02:07:23,529
aerodynamics will always be important.

2496
02:07:23,779 --> 02:07:27,209
There'll always be stuff for the technical guys to do,

2497
02:07:27,729 --> 02:07:29,729
but you don't want to make it. So

2498
02:07:29,930 --> 02:07:33,000
you know, you've got a generation of wrecked backs,

2499
02:07:33,470 --> 02:07:36,870
and, uh, and more, particularly people say

2500
02:07:37,000 --> 02:07:39,529
it's too expensive. I can't afford that stuff,

2501
02:07:40,589 --> 02:07:44,450
But do you think cycling in very recently,

2502
02:07:44,459 --> 02:07:48,490
there's been the big announcement of Red Bull with the borrow hands grave team.

2503
02:07:48,950 --> 02:07:53,370
Do you see that cycling is now rather than this being

2504
02:07:53,629 --> 02:07:55,589
the sort of most technical it gets?

2505
02:07:55,910 --> 02:07:57,410
Do you see that? Actually,

2506
02:07:57,620 --> 02:08:02,089
there's another step to go with. Big companies come in. More sponsorship.

2507
02:08:02,100 --> 02:08:04,279
Cycling is getting even more thing. Do you see it

2508
02:08:04,569 --> 02:08:07,640
getting even more technical and and bigger budgets?

2509
02:08:08,220 --> 02:08:08,729
No,

2510
02:08:09,870 --> 02:08:14,009
no, I don't, Uh, I think I mean, it might get bigger budgets,

2511
02:08:14,439 --> 02:08:14,930
but,

2512
02:08:15,879 --> 02:08:16,580
um,

2513
02:08:17,709 --> 02:08:19,189
at the end of the day,

2514
02:08:19,390 --> 02:08:21,450
the most important thing

2515
02:08:21,689 --> 02:08:23,310
is the talent of the rider.

2516
02:08:24,540 --> 02:08:28,040
OK, you can pervert it a little bit

2517
02:08:29,129 --> 02:08:31,629
on a a time trial,

2518
02:08:32,580 --> 02:08:35,609
you know, on flat or windy day,

2519
02:08:36,439 --> 02:08:36,660
that

2520
02:08:38,479 --> 02:08:42,180
technology is never gonna make, uh,

2521
02:08:43,120 --> 02:08:46,060
a domestic win the Tour de France.

2522
02:08:46,979 --> 02:08:47,540
You know,

2523
02:08:47,799 --> 02:08:52,180
um, the talent of those guys is super

2524
02:08:52,330 --> 02:08:53,419
duper special.

2525
02:08:53,939 --> 02:09:00,310
So we're in Formula One. You can get a B grade driver, win the world championship.

2526
02:09:00,319 --> 02:09:01,580
If he's in the right car,

2527
02:09:02,439 --> 02:09:06,779
you will never get a B grade cyclist to win the Tour de France

2528
02:09:07,700 --> 02:09:10,529
or the so called monuments

2529
02:09:12,160 --> 02:09:14,959
or the Cyclocross championship.

2530
02:09:15,660 --> 02:09:16,180
Um,

2531
02:09:16,790 --> 02:09:18,850
there's no doubt technology

2532
02:09:19,100 --> 02:09:21,089
will give marginal gains,

2533
02:09:21,500 --> 02:09:22,589
but the

2534
02:09:23,100 --> 02:09:26,359
difference that technology now can offer,

2535
02:09:26,779 --> 02:09:27,279
um,

2536
02:09:27,979 --> 02:09:30,799
against the difference in talent,

2537
02:09:31,020 --> 02:09:36,000
It will always be on the margins. So we've seen this big.

2538
02:09:36,100 --> 02:09:40,240
Oh, my God. Engineering works and big step up.

2539
02:09:41,270 --> 02:09:45,009
Uh, and now people realise what's important,

2540
02:09:46,229 --> 02:09:46,930
but,

2541
02:09:47,410 --> 02:09:50,279
uh, you won't do that in life sciences.

2542
02:09:50,290 --> 02:09:54,549
So when we were working together, it was about engineering

2543
02:09:54,740 --> 02:09:56,109
things that you can

2544
02:09:56,390 --> 02:09:57,359
measure.

2545
02:09:57,709 --> 02:10:02,319
And you just absolutely know that if you do this, you'll go faster

2546
02:10:03,379 --> 02:10:08,040
when it comes to life sciences, training a human being,

2547
02:10:08,770 --> 02:10:11,910
working to make an athlete a little bit better

2548
02:10:12,660 --> 02:10:17,850
That is not deterministic like engineering is. And

2549
02:10:18,259 --> 02:10:20,279
you'll never get the gains

2550
02:10:20,799 --> 02:10:22,979
that we've seen, you know, sort

2551
02:10:23,120 --> 02:10:23,240
of

2552
02:10:24,049 --> 02:10:29,910
double digit percentage drops in drag over the years. You'll you'll never get

2553
02:10:30,229 --> 02:10:32,200
10% more power

2554
02:10:32,410 --> 02:10:35,240
out of a mature, professional athlete.

2555
02:10:36,040 --> 02:10:37,660
Uh, the only way is to

2556
02:10:38,529 --> 02:10:40,620
scour the world for a better one.

2557
02:10:41,970 --> 02:10:42,330
Yeah,

2558
02:10:42,439 --> 02:10:43,560
Yeah, which is probably a

2559
02:10:43,709 --> 02:10:45,109
good thing, in a way.

2560
02:10:45,220 --> 02:10:46,220
I mean, um,

2561
02:10:46,910 --> 02:10:49,250
I feel we could probably keep talking for hours on this,

2562
02:10:49,259 --> 02:10:51,290
But one question I wanted to ask you

2563
02:10:52,459 --> 02:10:54,950
across the whole career starting

2564
02:10:55,169 --> 02:10:56,919
from sounds like

2565
02:10:57,430 --> 02:11:00,930
a challenging transition into academia.

2566
02:11:01,729 --> 02:11:05,160
Are there any sort of advice you would give or lessons

2567
02:11:05,700 --> 02:11:07,290
to put to others who, you know,

2568
02:11:07,299 --> 02:11:11,250
want to go into Formula One or want to be an engineer or want to try and, you know,

2569
02:11:11,259 --> 02:11:12,080
achieve things.

2570
02:11:12,089 --> 02:11:15,770
What? What? What's been your kind of key life lessons? I guess,

2571
02:11:16,000 --> 02:11:16,560
in a way.

2572
02:11:17,850 --> 02:11:18,930
Difficult question.

2573
02:11:20,310 --> 02:11:20,830
So

2574
02:11:21,430 --> 02:11:25,600
I think there's something in following your dreams.

2575
02:11:25,979 --> 02:11:28,669
You know, I, I really do.

2576
02:11:29,100 --> 02:11:29,600
Um

2577
02:11:30,490 --> 02:11:30,990
But

2578
02:11:31,399 --> 02:11:33,259
I also think that

2579
02:11:33,470 --> 02:11:36,509
you you've got to be realistic. So

2580
02:11:36,830 --> 02:11:41,189
if I look back at my career yeah, as a schoolboy,

2581
02:11:41,200 --> 02:11:45,189
even my school report said I was daydreaming the whole time.

2582
02:11:45,850 --> 02:11:46,750
And, uh,

2583
02:11:46,870 --> 02:11:48,049
you know, I thought, Oh,

2584
02:11:48,060 --> 02:11:50,970
it would be great if I was in Formula One and that sort of thing.

2585
02:11:51,200 --> 02:11:52,750
But at the end of the day,

2586
02:11:53,259 --> 02:11:54,149
it was

2587
02:11:54,359 --> 02:11:58,069
doing really well at university That got me into Formula One

2588
02:11:58,799 --> 02:12:01,080
and studying for years

2589
02:12:01,890 --> 02:12:06,870
and being mindlessly determined,

2590
02:12:07,910 --> 02:12:08,970
Um,

2591
02:12:09,729 --> 02:12:10,700
and

2592
02:12:11,200 --> 02:12:13,390
being very resourceful,

2593
02:12:14,379 --> 02:12:15,040
you know?

2594
02:12:15,220 --> 02:12:16,459
So, yeah,

2595
02:12:16,640 --> 02:12:21,410
You want to be a dreamer? Yeah, that's good. Chase your dreams, but

2596
02:12:21,759 --> 02:12:22,350
don't

2597
02:12:23,100 --> 02:12:24,930
Don't be silly about it.

2598
02:12:25,080 --> 02:12:26,049
Try and keep

2599
02:12:27,680 --> 02:12:31,859
realism of what's achievable. And, uh,

2600
02:12:32,339 --> 02:12:37,229
you know, always always understand that, uh, learning stuff

2601
02:12:38,069 --> 02:12:42,839
learning, uh, stuff that's difficult. And engineering is difficult.

2602
02:12:43,680 --> 02:12:46,740
You you know that, uh, becoming

2603
02:12:47,259 --> 02:12:49,500
competent in things

2604
02:12:50,259 --> 02:12:53,080
really, uh, is a superpower

2605
02:12:53,830 --> 02:12:54,319
that

2606
02:12:54,750 --> 02:12:56,569
no dream will ever

2607
02:12:57,020 --> 02:12:58,450
compensate for.

2608
02:12:59,370 --> 02:13:00,850
Uh, and, you know,

2609
02:13:01,049 --> 02:13:01,060
I

2610
02:13:01,459 --> 02:13:07,479
funny enough, I I'm always, uh, sort of struck by how many

2611
02:13:07,879 --> 02:13:14,509
amateurs in motor racing or informal or in cycling will come up to you and say,

2612
02:13:14,520 --> 02:13:16,270
I got this great idea,

2613
02:13:16,640 --> 02:13:18,910
you know, I will be great, you know?

2614
02:13:19,620 --> 02:13:20,149
And

2615
02:13:20,850 --> 02:13:22,109
you think, Well,

2616
02:13:22,589 --> 02:13:26,180
you've got that great idea because you've never gone through

2617
02:13:26,189 --> 02:13:29,549
the rigour of being a scientist or an engineer.

2618
02:13:29,930 --> 02:13:31,629
And you realise that,

2619
02:13:32,520 --> 02:13:33,160
you know,

2620
02:13:33,379 --> 02:13:35,750
you're miles off

2621
02:13:37,399 --> 02:13:38,689
thinking straight

2622
02:13:39,220 --> 02:13:40,209
and that that's different

2623
02:13:40,720 --> 02:13:41,540
people,

2624
02:13:42,240 --> 02:13:42,629
but,

2625
02:13:43,490 --> 02:13:44,120
you know,

2626
02:13:44,959 --> 02:13:45,660
so

2627
02:13:45,770 --> 02:13:47,009
mix

2628
02:13:47,839 --> 02:13:48,890
going for it

2629
02:13:49,149 --> 02:13:49,700
with

2630
02:13:50,810 --> 02:13:52,390
learning and training and

2631
02:13:53,189 --> 02:13:55,410
and respect people

2632
02:13:55,720 --> 02:13:56,580
who are

2633
02:13:57,020 --> 02:13:58,290
good at things.

2634
02:13:58,540 --> 02:13:58,839
Yeah,

2635
02:13:59,310 --> 02:14:01,529
and it it's never ever

2636
02:14:01,660 --> 02:14:03,250
anything but a team effort.

2637
02:14:04,120 --> 02:14:06,819
So choose who you work with. Well,

2638
02:14:08,129 --> 02:14:08,459
yep.

2639
02:14:09,149 --> 02:14:11,250
Well, on that. Thank you so much.

2640
02:14:11,259 --> 02:14:13,439
I personally, you know, I love working with you,

2641
02:14:13,450 --> 02:14:17,390
and I can say everyone I speak to says exactly the same thing.

2642
02:14:17,729 --> 02:14:20,649
Um and yeah, thanks for Thanks for speaking. And I hope people

2643
02:14:21,319 --> 02:14:23,470
have learned a lot. A lot. I know. We've

2644
02:14:23,680 --> 02:14:28,100
I feel bad. There's so many topics we haven't discussed. Um, and, uh,

2645
02:14:28,240 --> 02:14:30,629
like Cambridge University. You're a professor at Cambridge University.

2646
02:14:30,640 --> 02:14:32,790
We completely missed that one off, but,

2647
02:14:33,399 --> 02:14:34,279
um, yeah,

2648
02:14:36,259 --> 02:14:36,279
yeah.

2649
02:14:37,459 --> 02:14:42,850
I think when you reach my age, you can talk about the old times and infinite,

2650
02:14:45,350 --> 02:14:47,899
but you have to become more skilled at

2651
02:14:48,500 --> 02:14:51,959
keeping things on track if you want to cover any.

2652
02:14:54,689 --> 02:14:54,759
Yeah,

2653
02:14:55,779 --> 02:14:56,569
Thank you so much.

2654
02:14:57,399 --> 02:15:00,040
My pleasure. And, uh,

2655
02:15:00,879 --> 02:15:03,290
yeah, I enjoyed it. Thank you very much, Neil.

2656
02:15:04,069 --> 02:15:05,009
OK, cheers.

2657
02:15:28,069 --> 02:15:28,109
Yes.