Hi and welcome to the Neil Ashton
podcast. In each episode we explain some
of the fascinating ways that science and
engineering are changing the world
around us. We talk to leading engineers
from elite-level sports like cycling and
Formula One to some of the world's top
academics, to understand how fluid
dynamics, machine learning and supercomputing,
are bringing in a new era of discovery.
We also hear some of their life stories,
their career advice and lessons they've
learned on the way that I hope will
be helpful to you too. So sit back and enjoy
this
[Music]
episode. Welcome back to the Neil Ashton
podcast. So this episode's going to be a
little bit different than the last two. I
know I've said that in the past two
episodes, but I guess this podcast is
meant to be a bit varied on purpose. And
it's just me today, no guest, but I wanted
to cover a topic that I I I wish I had
probably had more information on, which
is essentially career advice, academia
versus industry, the tech sector, how much
can you get paid, what does it take to
become a professor. So, basically, five or
six things that I suppose I wish I knew
when I was growing up and looking into a
career into engineering, and I wanted to
try and give you some information. This
is is all my opinion. It's based upon my
life, my career, which is UK based, so I'm
going to have a bit of slant, even though
I work for an American company and
therefore do have a reasonably sort of
good sense of what's going on across the
pond. So let's start off number
one: PhD or no PhD? Do you need to do a
PhD to advance in the field of
engineering and in
science? I would say yes and I'll explain
why. For me, if you go and do a master's
or an
undergraduate, you can be the smartest,
best person, but there is because of what
you get taught, you're never an
expert. After that time. You you may have
developed skills, you may have, you know,
learned a good amount about your area,
but they're not designed these courses
to make you an expert in something.
They're meant to give you a broad base.
Typically, um, you do often do a sort of
dissertation in your third or fourth
year, depending if you're in the UK or
Europe or the US, but by definition,
really, a masters is about you know a
grounding knowledge or an undergraduate,
and not becoming an expert or specialism
in a specific area. So if you look for a
job after doing an undergraduate or
Master's um. Many companies still see you
as a graduate and see you as a more
generalist that they can mold and adapt.
So most companies where it's Aerospace
or mechanical or even in the tech sector
are going to bring you into more generic
engineering roles or generic data
science
roles and you won't be a specialist. So
the advantages of not doing a PhD are
you're going to move faster into a
paying job. So maybe if you're doing a
standard thing at 21- 22, you're going to
be starting to earn money. So in the UK
If you were to go into an engineering
job, 30 to 40,000, maybe in the US 50 to
60 um- we'll get on to later about the
tech sector- maybe it's a little bit
higher- 60 or 70 um, potentially a bit
higher if you're in San Francisco or in
the Bay Area. Maybe you might be earning
$100,000 um after a masters if you're in
a sort of decent position.
But the negative is that you have you're
kind of similar to thousands and
thousands of people across the world who
have done an engineering undergraduate,
Masters. You can overcome that, of course,
by doing extracurricular activities and
doing the stuff in your own time. But
that's that now. Contrast that with if
you have a
PhD. A PhD forces you to basically have
three, four or five years extra education
and extra time to become an expert in
your area. A PhD, by definition, is quite
narrow, so you become focused in
something. So for me it was not even just
CFD, it was turbulence modelling within
CFD. The pro is, by the end of those three
or four years, or even five years, you
have become
probably- let's say, only a less than 100
people, maybe certainly in your country,
or maybe broader than your country, maybe
even Europe or the US know it as well as
you do in your specific
area—very specific—but you have become
an expert in something. Most of the time
you, you will go there for, to company
interviews, potentially knowing as much
or more than sometimes a person
interviewing, because you've spent three
or four years becoming very an expert in
that area. When I say no more than them,
but you know you you're, you're up on the
latest sort of advances. So you come in
with a different mindset. You've, um,
you've also had the chance to broaden
academically to other areas. You've had
the opportunity to to go to conferences
to see the sort of Academic Way of
working, the writing style, the
investigation style, the sort of culture
it ingrains into you. You've maybe
learned more programming languages.
You've done extracurricular activities,
because often during a PhD you've had
time to do other things. Um, because of
the nature of what it's like at a
university, you've been able to explore
the world a
bit. Those are all
advantages, and later we can talk about
Academia or industry. Obviously PhD is an
essential requirement, essentially to go
into Academia. But what's the cons? The
cons are that
you are still in University and
therefore you're getting paid less than
if you were in the industry. So PhD is
equivalent of maybe 20 to 30,000 a year.
I say equivalent because of the tax
systems. Sometimes it can be a bit less,
sometimes it can be a bit more. But
remember, after four years or 5 years of
a PhD, your take-home sort of salary
equivalent, given that the people who
have joined industry, probably each year,
have being advancing. By the point when
you graduate, maybe at 27, you may be now
um, earning, you know,
£30,000 or half the amount that that
somebody else might be might be actually
learning be earning. So you have to
factor that in. The other one is no one's
going to let you buy a house on a on a
PhD if you're a sole income um. So you
haven't been able to establish that sort
of security and some the buying place,
unless you already have the money from
alternative sources. But you have set
yourself up
up as an expert in
something that I think has longer term
implications. I'm biased- I did to go down
the PhD route, but I'll finish off by
answer by saying I think you should do a
PhD because it's a once- in a-lifetime
Opportunity. You know it's almost
impossible to do a PhD when you're older.
It's very, very difficult to do it with
family and work life and everything else
and financially. So
PhD? Absolutely, yes. There are issues
with funding. You have to fund it.
Typically, most people find some industry
funding or university funding, so I'm not
saying that it's possible for all um.
Also, where you want to do your PhD. It
does matter where you do your PhD in
terms of you know the name of the
University it. It opens doors if you do
it as a top tier University, but it's
more important that you um actually are
motivated and you enjoy your time. PhDs
have a very high failure rate. I don't
know the current statistics, but it's
probably at least half people fail their
PhDs or quit, because after the first
year it's so you've really got to one be
motivated to do it. So it's just not. It's
not an easy option. It's very um
independent, so you have to motivate
yourself. Um it's tough. People get in
difficult times again. You see other
people moving on Beyond, getting better
jobs, getting more money, and you're still
stuck doing your PhD. It can feel like um,
but if you, if you pick the right
supervisor, the right environment, it can
actually be a very positive thing um for
you. So I think, all in all, a PhD in the
right topic that you're interested in
and you really have a passion for, I
believe is the right decision. So on
question number one, PhD or no PhD, I
would say
PhD, okay. Second question: how do I become
a professor?
Well, first of all, um interesting, the
term Professor is different in different
countries. In the UK- and I think it's
already kind of going out of fashion-
this- it used to be lecturer, senior
lecturer, reader and then professor. So
only once you got to the top rank you
could call yourself a professor. Um, I
don't know if they started it, but the US
is, at least for as long as I know, has
gone down the different route which is
assistant professor, associate professor
and Professor. So at all points people
tend to still call you Professor, even if
you're not technically a full professor.
And in Europe it's a little bit um
similar where you know people can still
call you a sort of Professor. But it's an
interesting one that um. Probably people
who have worked hard to get to a full
Professor don't like people being called
a professor in their earlier years
because there is, you know, potentially
difference. But anyway, when you hear
someone say I'm a professor, often there
is a different ranking system: assistant,
associate professor. So how do you become
a full Professor? Well, I'm not a full
Professor, so I'm giving you, based upon
conversations with um people, but I can
give you at least the way I've seen it.
So, first of all, you've obviously had to
do a PhD. I say Obviously you can be
given an honorary
professorship. I guess some people who
went straight into industry and spent 30
years could be given something honorary, but
today, as it stands unlikely, you would
almost certainly need a PhD. So you've
done your PhD, your, let's say, 27, again
assuming that you went to University at
at 18, and it depends in different places
around the
world. So first thing is, almost nobody
becomes a professor after their PhD or
the first ranker being Professor, which
we'll call an assistant professor. Almost
all need to do a postdoc,
postdoctoral research, postdoctoral
research, PDRA positions—different names—
things in different countries and
different universities. Essentially, what
it is is a period of work, really now, or
research after your PhD. When you're a
PhD, you're still considered a student.
You know post-graduate student, but
you're still a student. You have a
supervisor. A postdoc is different
because you're now essentially a
contractor. That's the way I have now
realized what it is for people who,
working in Industry, a contractor is
somebody who doesn't have a full-time
permanent position, but somebody who is
contracted to do work on a set time
period, and in Industry that's used to
fill gaps, um, when you're not sure if you
have long-term funding. Unfortunately, in
Academia that is the standard for a
postdoc. So for me it's basically a
contractor. All this. So this is the first
stage. You are typically given a a one,
Two, Three or, very exceptionally, 5year
position. Um, normally it's funded through
research. So what that means is: later on,
a professor has won some
funding
to do some
research and they will either get a PhD
student to do that research, the negative
being it takes a while for PhD to learn
and, you know, be good enough to do it. Or
they can get a postdoc someone who's done
a PhD, someone who is more productive and
knowledgeable, and they will do the
research. So what does a postdoc get you?
Well, a post now gets you more money. You
are actually an employee of the
University, not a student. Money is still
not fantastic, um, relative scales to what
we'll talk about later. You may be on 30
to
40,000, so I'm going to guess in the
us70-
$80,000. Apologies, I could be, I'm just
going to give a rough translation. It
will depend as well which university
where you are in the world. You know
London PhD a little bit more because
London
waiting and um, so you'll be paid for
that and your job is to do the
research. In some universities you may
also be asked to do some teaching. Uh, in
the oxfords and the cambridges that's a
way to supplement your income. At some of
the colleges in more traditional
universities, normally you're not
directly teaching. You may be helping. In
the US, typically you do more teaching.
It’s sort of a rite of passage, in a way,
that you'll be helping um to do it. So it
really does depend around the world. But
during that time you're doing research
and your aim- and I'm talking about the
postdoc in the context of now becoming a
professor- is to establish yourself as
someone who could be an assistant
professor, as in. You need to publish, to
prove to the community and to your peers
that you are somebody that is qualified
enough and ready to do their own
independent research. A postdoc is
normally doing research that has
essentially been one or proposed by an
assistant professor or hire occasionally
during a PhD. You can apply for a
fellowship. A fellowship is something
where you have written- although still
likely with the help of some Professor- a
project that you want to get funding for,
to fund your postdoc, and that is highly
advised and definitely a good stepping
stone. So most of governments have these
sort of funding. They’re very sought
after but definitely a good idea, cuz if
you win one you've secured yourself
probably three years of funding, some d l
more. You've given yourself already a
stepping stone of esteem because you won
some fellowship and often those people
then have a better chance of you know,
moving towards something because they've
already got a track record during those,
let's say, three years. You have to
publish like mad. You have to work hard
and start interviewing straight away. I
say this because this is the mistake I
made. I mean my career was a little bit
different, I'll talk about that later- but
during that time you have to really go
for it. The other thing is that, um, now,
during that post, most people say if you
don't move out of a post, do within 3
years you're very unlikely to. And I've
seen- and I didn't believe it at first
but now I kind of believe it- all of the
funding mechanisms and the sort of way
everything's done and the age that you
are and the salary that you'll accept.
All gets harder the older you are. So
those first three years you have the
best chance of making it and you have to
be fully prepared to move. Most
universities only have one or two
positions opening up for a new assistant
professor in a particular topic. So
statistically it's most likely you're
going to have to move to another
University or even another country, but
let's just assume another University in
your particular country to get that
first level academic job. There are again
sort of fellowships and schemes, um, but
the
universities are typically doing it to
fill teaching needs, because primarily
teaching is one of the ways that
University brings in the money to pay
for a position. So if you are um in
charge of an engineering College
University Department, you need some to
help teach your courses. And, as we'll
talk about later, the older you get and
the more close to get to a full
Professor, the less you want to teach. So
you need these young blood coming in to
do the teaching. So one of the primary
focuses of hiring an assistant professor
is to teach and to cover the teaching Lo.
So they need to be able to do that and
that's where the funding comes in. And
there can only be a couple of them
because you only have a certain number
of students. So this is why you- my point
is you may have to move. So this is
something we'll look again in the
negatives- Academia or industry. This is
something to be aware of. Let's assume
now you do become assistant
professor. Now it depends in different
countries, but in the US, and increasingly
also in some of the sort of top tier UK
universities, that is still not a
permanent position, that is still not a
sort of Lifetime position. That is what
they call getting ready on, like sort of
moving towards tenure. Tenure is really
when you become an assistant professor.
Now I hope I’m not getting this terminology
wrong and if I am, please write in the
comments. But to the best of my
knowledge this is the way I've seen it
and I've got many colleagues and friends
who are at various levels of being
professors and and
not. So you go through that process, you
become an assistant professor, but that's
not the end of the journey. Then you have
to
fight, you know, pretty hard to get to the
next level, which is your sort of
permanent associate professor position.
Now in the US that's typically 5 years,
um, sometimes it can be less. In the UK um
3 to 5 years it it's kind of different
in different universities in the UK.
Sometimes they use the lecturer/senior
lecturer titles, and, um, sometimes your
lecturer position could already be permanent.
Like I said, more the top tier they're
trying to still Whittle out, so they
don't want to make permanent positions
until you've got even further into your
career. In the US it’s most definitely like that.
You're assistant professor. You still are
working to get that tenure of being an
associate professor. So during those 5
years you are might mad, needing to
publish, needing to bring money in,
needing to get more students and teach
and this is probably one of the hardest
periods. This is where the burnout
happens. This is where people quit. It's
like a triangle. You're a student at the
bottom, PhD, postdoc, assistant
professor, bearing in mind. Now you're
probably 30, 31, if you've gone through a
standard sort of age thing, and you're
still in the UK, maybe only earning
50,000. I say only. It's all relative. You
know to different, where you are, what
potential get to, but you're working flat
out, you're working weekends, you are
traveling around it. Academia at this
time is one of the hardest
jobs and you have to be trying to
establish yourself internationally as
well as
nationally, getting into doing
Publications and everything and- and you
know, review and play the politics, trying
to win them, funding from different
agencies and Industry, funding and
nurturing students, trying to get posts,
trying to get
PhDs. And then you maybe you make
associate professor or senior lecturer
and I should be clear: some people never
get beyond that. Some people never get
Beyond a senior lecturer or an associate
professor. Now, bearing in mind, you may be
towards, you know, your late 30s at this
point, or maybe even
older, maybe in your early 40s or later,
depending on how successful you've been.
At this point, becoming a full Professor
becomes another sort of time bound thing.
You have to really establish yourself.
You have to probably be taking on
departmental duties, you have to be
supervising 10 or 12 students, you have
to be creating centers or or or new
areas. You have to be on the
international stage, you have to be
called to panels, you have to be seen as
an internationally leading person,
editing maybe a journal or co-editing a
journal. All this and playing all the
politics game to become a full
professor. And most people, if you're
mid-40s and getting a full Professor,
you've done very well. Often people are
in their 50s before they get a full
professor and some never at all. And this
is again dependent on the how ambitious
the person
is and the starting salary of a
professor. I just checked, I think in the
UK is about 70 something
thousand. I say that because the next. So
so you've made it. Congratulations, you
can now call yourself a full professor,
and at that point I would say from the
professors that I know this is when
Academia, in my opinion, becomes a very
worthwhile place, because you have
reached the top kind of. You are
internationally known, you are regarded,
you're an expert, you're, you're sort of,
you're secure, you've got a good salary,
um, you can sort of pick and choose your
teaching a little bit and from that
point on until you retire, you can sort
of enjoy that P. It's still hard, don't
get me wrong. I you know professors are
working very hard, but there's a certain
thing at that where I think you can
enjoy the fruits of your labor. Um, so
that’s a definite pro. But just consider all
the stuff I've said. I've how to get
there, which I would say: the more
esteemed the
university, the harder that gets. Some
people will end up jumping to a lower
University to get that Professor title
because they think they can't get in the
current one. Um, so there's a lot of
moving around. But yeah, so that's the
question: how do I get to be a professor?
Of course I could talk for hours about
this more. I'm always interested in this
kind of stuff and I still go to lots of
conferences and speak to people. I'm
always intrigued and maybe I'm giving
the harder bits of it, uh, but anyway, I'd
be interested. If people have a similar
experience, you should write in the
comments, um, or reach out to me, okay. Next
question: Academia or
industry, often a question people have at
the beginning of their career, at the
middle and the
end. So let's now focus on an industrial
career and I'm going to use um two
different sort of uh places. I'm going to
um pick a Formula 1 team for people into
Formula 1 and maybe a a sort of
Automotive or, you know, aerospace, okay,
so Formula One. So you finish your
undergraduate and you try and get into
Formula One. That's quite hard, um very
tough to get into formula straight after
a master's degree, undergrad, because you
are literally competing against
thousands of people. If you come in at
that time you would be a junior. You
probably on 25, 30,000, like a pretty low
salary. Formula 1 doesn't pay that great
at the beginning. If you've done a PhD- 27,
28- you may come in at 40 odd, maybe 50
and apologies if some of my numbers are
not spot on. And what will you? You'll be
doing. You'll be seen still as a graduate
or Junior. For those first few years you
will just be doing what you're told.
You'll be trying to be ambitious and
progressing, but you'll be, you know, a
member of a team as an
individual and then maybe after two or
three years, so maybe you're sort of uh
in your mid to late 20s if you didn't do
a PhD, or in your 30s if you did, you may
move to being a sort of normal. Let's say
aerodynamics- I'm going to take
aerodynamics. At that point you're still
an individual um, but you you maybe are
sort of shadowing a few Juniors and
graduates. You're helping them out a bit
and maybe your salar's got up to more
like 50 order or
60. Next, 3 years later you may be trying
to become a senior, or three or four
years later. So maybe not a senior
aerodynamicist or senior, and maybe now
you be getting up to more like 880,000,
70, 80,000 as a senior. Maybe you're in
your early 30s or mid-30s, depending on
um. You know when you started. I'm just
going to pause there for a
moment to realize that you could be a
senior, a
aerodynamicist, earning £70,000
in your mid-30s or early 30s, earning the
same as a full Professor- a university,
that's true, excluding- and I should have
said in the previous one- some professors
do supplement their income by doing
consultancy work and startups and all
this. But just bear that in mind. Formula
one pays quite well: by your early 30s
you could be earning the same as someone
who's probably in their mid-40s as a? U
Professor. Then you could spend another
three, four years, let's say now- and by
the way, I should say Formula One is
incredibly tough working hours, very, very
difficult. So, um, potentially working on
weekends- although I'd say in Academia,
sometimes even harder working in the
earlier years- sort of Tire between the
two. You can then become like a principal
or a deputy principal. So this is after
maybe 8 to 10 years of being in. So
you're in your sort of mid 30s to late
30s. Some of the people I know are- you
know, sort of principals who started at
a similar time, or maybe sort of a deputy
team leader and now they could be
earning
£100,000 a year, bit bit more or a bit
less. You move on a little bit. But now
you you're having to really manage a
team more. Potentially you've got people
underneath you when you're a certainly a
principal or a team leader. So let's say
you go a little bit further again,
another three, four years. Maybe now you
could be a sort of Deputy team or Deputy
head of aerodynamics. Maybe you're in
your mid 40s, early to mid 40s. You could
be earned now 150,
1702,
200,000, so well beyond what a professor
earns. So if you look equally at someone
who's in the um mid-40s and maybe have
become a deputy head of era, even head of
Arrow, where maybe they're earning
250,000, 300,000 or even more depending
on the team. The time it takes for you to
get to that position, the time time it
gets you to
Academia, is you can see why. At all those
points there are some people who
question: should they stay in Academia?
Now I would argue at that point, the
stress level when you're a deputy or a
head of aerodynamics versus the stress
level when you're a
professor. I would argue that, and job
security, you're probably far more secure
in your academic job as a full professor
and you could top up your money. You know
quite well, by being such a world expert
you could be earning £200,000 in total
if you, you know, do lots of consultancy
work and you'll have a little startup on
the side, like many do. All within the
rules, um, and I say the starting solo for
a professor of 75, let's say in the UK.
But they get higher and higher. There's
incremental, so they could be over 100 um
by the time they're in their 50s or more,
depending on the University, if they've,
you know, really
esteemed and um, but they're still quite
far off. Let's say formula
one, and if you get even higher in
Formula One, People earning half a
million or
more, but they're exceptional, that's, you
know, sort team principle or very high up.
But that's not the norm of standard
engineering industry. If you were a sort
of car company- Jag, Land Rover- all you
have to do is look at Job adverts- um, you
are going to be earning less than that.
You're. Working hours are probably going
to be a little bit easier. Form one is
known to be difficult, but you may be
earning, you know, 40 to 50,000 in your
late
30s to 40s, or you could be earning 60, 70,
a bit more. But what are you going to be
doing? Well, at that point you are going
to be in a more corporate company. Of
course I should say the university is
very hectic, but you have a lot of
freedom on your time. You're kind of like
your own boss in a way. At a university
it's, it's always known that they're all
like little, um, CTO, you know, Professor,
like they're running their own little
company. So it's a very different
lifestyle. You have a lot more freedom in
a way, um, but in in the industry one
you're, you're part of a, you know a
company. There's corporate structures.
Often if you're in a larger company
and the way to progress is usually by
managing people, and this is true of uh
in Academia in a way. You're often
managing, you know, a group of students
and postdocs and
teaching and Engineering the same. So the
question becomes:
Academia or
industry? I would say you have to do
both. I'm biased because I've split my
time a little bit between
two. I think if you only go down the
academic route, you will never be as
knowledgeable as if you had spent some
time in Industry, because it is
fundamentally just a different place to
work. It's different attitude on on what
he's engineering- I'm talking from an
engineering side. There's certain stuff
that you only realize. Ah, now I
understand why. You understand the
mindset, the culture, not only the science
and the Practical engineering, but just
the way that industry works. But equally,
if you've only been in the industry,
I think it's a shame that you're not
seeing the good side of Academia, in the
way to stretch your mind and to work
with students. And the good thing, there
are schemes that allow the movement of
both sides. So there are people who move
from um Academia to Industry, either
permanently or through sort of like
comment, and increasingly is also the
other way around, where academics can go
into industry for a year or or sort of
time
periods. Now I could end the episode
there and I would say that would be a
fair reflection of, certainly in the UK.
And again, um, it's kind of the angle I
can say is: what I certainly knew up to,
let's say, uh, four years ago. I thought
that was basically it. Do you? You know
Formula One's sort of the best paying
job but most Industries somewhere in the
middle. You have Academia, you have the
pros and
cons, but then there's another option- and
I think in the? U, in the US this was far
more known- which is the tech
sector, which is the
Amazon, the apples, the
Facebooks, the Googles, the Microsoft- I'm
probably missing out
names- and the sort of
associated startups and companies that
surround those sort of big tech
companies. Now you could also ask, argue,
to be fair, that the Teslas and those are
kind of like tech companies. And NVIDIA-
sorry, I missed out
NVIDIA. That's another option that I
would highly recommend people think
about. Now I'm biased because I work from
those companies, but this is no way me
trying to say, come and work for ads, not
at all. I'm just saying as a
sector. So what? What is it? Tech companies,
um, are now into many areas of
engineering because the Advent of ma,
machine learning and computer science
and numerical methods and high
performance
Computing. Engineering is no longer just
with your hands building something. It is
inherently a computer thing and
increasing now machine learning, so the
closeness. It used to be that it was only
computer science people who went to work
for tech companies, just developers.
Increasingly now I'm seeing a lot more
people come from engineering backgrounds
to go into tech companies because
they're working on more Tech problems.
You know robotics or Computing or fluid
dynamics, or there are a lot more
opportunities.
So if you are early on in your career
and you've just come out from doing an
engineering undergraduate or Masters, it
may be that actually, instead of you
going to the classic car company or
Aircraft Company, you may consider
looking at a tech company. Now you may
need to slightly change your skill set,
focus more on the sort of data science
and the Computing a little bit,
particularly in those early stage jobs,
because that is, you know, the most jobs.
Cloud computing is massive. Um, you know
high-performance computing or or
Computing from the. You know chip
companies, AI- now so many AI companies. So
where do they differ? Well, they are a um.
First of all, if you go and do a PhD-
sorry, let's assume you've done a PhD- it
certainly makes it
easier. postdoc is not a permanent
position. Tech company is a permanent
position, so for most companies anyway. So
you've got a post stock that pays maybe
like 40K-
45k and a starting Tech sector job that
may be paying more, like 70k or 80k. And
if you're in the US you're talking even
higher than that, like in the hundreds of
thousands of dollars, low hundreds, for like
someone after their PhD. So you're like:
oh okay, so that's actually a really good
salary. So someone just have their PhD
could potentially 60, 70,000. Now I'm not
talking about banking or financial
sector too, I know, but actually it’s
important for me to say that because a
lot of Engineers fought. The only way
that I can get a really good salary is
to go and work for a consulting or
banking company instead of engineering.
And what I'm saying to you is there are.
There is another alternative, which is
into the tech sector, which increasingly,
is now becoming a quite a broad sector.
So you don't have to abandon engineering
to. You know, go into the finance sector
or go into. You can stay as an engineer,
but into the tech sector. This is
something I had no clue about, didn't
even know about these companies until I
was, you know, until four or five years
ago. So, and how do they progress? Well, it
is tough if you join after your PhD in
tech tech company that is, you know you
are still at the sort of bottom end of
the ladder and you're going to have to
work hard to re differentiate, even with
a PhD. Um, you're going to have a tough,
tough job but
as you
progress your salary is going to be even
surpassing sort of Formula One, to the
point that if you're into your sort of
early
40s, let's, let's equate these different
role. Well, let's, let's forget about
salary for a moment. So for the tech
companies you move through, you can
progress from a sort of they have
different leveling systems- there's lots
of website on there that show them sort
of standard up, going to a normal, to a
senior, to a principal, to a senior
principal. Um, interestingly, most tech
companies allow you to stay as an IC, an
individual contributor, if you want to
like: I am an individual, I don't manage
anybody. I personally like that. There
aren't many companies that you can keep
progressing and keep progressing and
never had managed anybody. And what's it
like? Well, it's kind of exciting because
you're in a fast moving environment. So
it's it has. I'd say the tech sector has
a lot of analogies with academia.
and, and that's why, actually, of all the
people who are assistant professors or
postdocs, I see so many of them who have
actually moved over to the tech sector,
either before they became an associate
professor, assistant as an associate or
even as a full, but we'll talk about a
full in a minute, because I think that's
what's an interesting
distinction. So if you were to go through
that
route and let's now compare, so you've
got someone who, let's say, an associate
professor at their end of their
30s,
earning 65,
70,000 or maybe
50,
$60,000, massively depending on which
university or in the US. You got someone
who's in Industry who's maybe earning 50
60,000, so not that different between,
maybe, an associate professor and some in
the industry, depending on how far
they've advanced in their age. And then
you have someone who in the tech sector,
who could be earning
£150,000 or more, so it's almost double
the salary, and in the US you could have
somebody who's earning
$400,000. So so many of these people are
thinking: I'm I, I you know why am I
working so hard in Academia? I can just
get paid so much more and just join a
tech company. Now you lose some of the
freedom of the of the Academia, of course,
but it's. It's kind of interesting that
move. Now don't get me wrong. There are
some top us universities who pay very
high to take an average sort of thing,
and particularly in the UK. So I know I'm
jumping around all the place. I think
this is sort of
interesting. What about a full Professor?
So you're a full Professor, you may be on
80, 90,000 or in the US maybe, let's say,
$300,000 or even
higher. But then you look at a tech
sector and you think, hold on, I'm a full
Professor, I'm one of the top people in
the world. I reckon I could probably move
there.
And what happens is, yes, they could and
they're really value, particularly, let's
say, people in machine learning, and so
they may be offered a role, a tech
company, where, let's say, in the US
they're paid a million dollars, or in the
UK maybe 400,000 or $500,000.
Unfortunately, salaries in the UK are
quite a lot lower than the US. So
basically they could be earning twice or
three times as much as what they earn
the university, and that is why a lot of
universities have said: well, how about we
give you a duel position? You can have
both, and that is why, if you look at
almost all of the top tech
companies, There is almost always the
person who's like one of the top VPS, of
sort of science or whatever. He's almost
always also have an as an academic
position. And I, you know, I'm obviously
basing this only on some conversation,
but most of the time it's because the
universities had to do that to keep them,
because if not, they're going to go
anyway. Um, it's also a little bit the
other way around, where the tech company
may want access to the academic's, you
know, research group- and their students,
and so they want to do it. But so I'm
rambling around. What's my conclusion to
this? And these podcasts have already
been too long, so I I'll I'll summarize
this discussion starting from the
beginning: PhD or no PhD, do a PhD is
worth in the long run? How to get a
professor long role? But be aware that, um,
as I kind of said and didn't say, there
is more than one Route. One route is the
pure academic route, but there is routes
where you jump in and out and you
particularly come back when you you know
you're quite, you've made it more in
industry and you do see that in lot of
universities where people have sort of
come and gone a little bit.
So bear in mind it's a long journey but
it's worth it once you get right to the
top. But you know, just have the
conviction that to to go for it- Academia
or industry, difficult um- Academia- once
you get to the end I think looks
fantastic. But I do see people burn out
and really struggle. So you know it's a
tough one. Industry can be good. A lot
more permanent um basis um with work if
you things like Formula 1 can pay very
well, but which is kind of a little bit
the concluding for on this- be aware of
the opportunity that's coming through
sort of tech companies, particularly in
this age of AI. I wish I'd known about
this. That's why I'm really doing this
episode, because I wish I'd known this
when I was an
undergraduate. I I I'm glad in some ways
I didn't, because I like the route that
I've
taken, but I wish I'd known because I
think maybe I would have been more
educated about the opportunities out
there. Okay, now I work for that company,
but I think what would it been like if
i' have done that. So I really wanted to
do this episode just to make people
aware I've- like I said, I could talk
about this for hours cuz it's it really
is. There's so many nuances and I've, you
know, probably made some things
generalized too greatly or or or not. But
I'm hoping you find this useful,
particularly if you're maybe a bit
younger and you don't really know what,
what sort of roles and positions are out
there. And please do let me know if you
found this useful, cuz I'm happy to
record more, more episodes like this. And
uh, yeah, I think the uh next few episodes
are going to be back to the normal
interviewing guest about interesting
things in science and engineering, but I
wanted to try this format, um, to see how
it goes. So so thanks for listening.
[Music].