1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:02,000 Hi and welcome to the Neil Ashton 2 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:04,680 podcast. In each episode we explain some 3 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:06,640 of the fascinating ways that science and 4 00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:08,480 engineering are changing the world 5 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:11,240 around us. We talk to leading engineers 6 00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:13,400 from elite-level sports like cycling and 7 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:16,000 Formula One to some of the world's top 8 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:18,160 academics, to understand how fluid 9 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:21,279 dynamics, machine learning and supercomputing, 10 00:00:21,279 --> 00:00:24,000 are bringing in a new era of discovery. 11 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:26,080 We also hear some of their life stories, 12 00:00:26,080 --> 00:00:28,199 their career advice and lessons they've 13 00:00:28,199 --> 00:00:30,160 learned on the way that I hope will 14 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:33,680 be helpful to you too. So sit back and enjoy 15 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:35,840 this 16 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:38,800 [Music] 17 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:42,000 episode. Welcome back to the Neil Ashton 18 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:45,280 podcast. So this episode's going to be a 19 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:47,120 little bit different than the last two. I 20 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:49,039 know I've said that in the past two 21 00:00:49,039 --> 00:00:51,760 episodes, but I guess this podcast is 22 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:55,640 meant to be a bit varied on purpose. And 23 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:58,719 it's just me today, no guest, but I wanted 24 00:00:58,719 --> 00:01:02,559 to cover a topic that I I I wish I had 25 00:01:02,559 --> 00:01:04,600 probably had more information on, which 26 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:08,479 is essentially career advice, academia 27 00:01:08,479 --> 00:01:12,759 versus industry, the tech sector, how much 28 00:01:12,759 --> 00:01:15,320 can you get paid, what does it take to 29 00:01:15,320 --> 00:01:18,240 become a professor. So, basically, five or 30 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:21,759 six things that I suppose I wish I knew 31 00:01:21,759 --> 00:01:25,840 when I was growing up and looking into a 32 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:28,079 career into engineering, and I wanted to 33 00:01:28,079 --> 00:01:29,799 try and give you some information. This 34 00:01:29,799 --> 00:01:34,600 is is all my opinion. It's based upon my 35 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:38,680 life, my career, which is UK based, so I'm 36 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:39,759 going to have a bit of slant, even though 37 00:01:39,759 --> 00:01:41,640 I work for an American company and 38 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:44,000 therefore do have a reasonably sort of 39 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:46,439 good sense of what's going on across the 40 00:01:46,439 --> 00:01:50,200 pond. So let's start off number 41 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:54,799 one: PhD or no PhD? Do you need to do a 42 00:01:54,799 --> 00:01:58,719 PhD to advance in the field of 43 00:01:58,719 --> 00:02:01,240 engineering and in 44 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:06,119 science? I would say yes and I'll explain 45 00:02:06,119 --> 00:02:09,360 why. For me, if you go and do a master's 46 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:10,239 or an 47 00:02:10,239 --> 00:02:12,520 undergraduate, you can be the smartest, 48 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:16,599 best person, but there is because of what 49 00:02:16,599 --> 00:02:19,480 you get taught, you're never an 50 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:22,879 expert. After that time. You you may have 51 00:02:22,879 --> 00:02:24,879 developed skills, you may have, you know, 52 00:02:24,879 --> 00:02:28,160 learned a good amount about your area, 53 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:30,560 but they're not designed these courses 54 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:32,239 to make you an expert in something. 55 00:02:32,239 --> 00:02:34,480 They're meant to give you a broad base. 56 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:38,400 Typically, um, you do often do a sort of 57 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:40,319 dissertation in your third or fourth 58 00:02:40,319 --> 00:02:42,080 year, depending if you're in the UK or 59 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:45,000 Europe or the US, but by definition, 60 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:47,560 really, a masters is about you know a 61 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:49,239 grounding knowledge or an undergraduate, 62 00:02:49,239 --> 00:02:51,840 and not becoming an expert or specialism 63 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:56,040 in a specific area. So if you look for a 64 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:58,239 job after doing an undergraduate or 65 00:02:58,239 --> 00:03:01,080 Master's um. Many companies still see you 66 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:03,319 as a graduate and see you as a more 67 00:03:03,319 --> 00:03:06,120 generalist that they can mold and adapt. 68 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:08,239 So most companies where it's Aerospace 69 00:03:08,239 --> 00:03:11,360 or mechanical or even in the tech sector 70 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:13,319 are going to bring you into more generic 71 00:03:13,319 --> 00:03:15,440 engineering roles or generic data 72 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:16,480 science 73 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:20,519 roles and you won't be a specialist. So 74 00:03:20,519 --> 00:03:24,799 the advantages of not doing a PhD are 75 00:03:24,799 --> 00:03:26,760 you're going to move faster into a 76 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:30,879 paying job. So maybe if you're doing a 77 00:03:30,879 --> 00:03:32,760 standard thing at 21- 22, you're going to 78 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:35,560 be starting to earn money. So in the UK 79 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:37,400 If you were to go into an engineering 80 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:41,599 job, 30 to 40,000, maybe in the US 50 to 81 00:03:41,599 --> 00:03:43,959 60 um- we'll get on to later about the 82 00:03:43,959 --> 00:03:45,360 tech sector- maybe it's a little bit 83 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:48,400 higher- 60 or 70 um, potentially a bit 84 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:50,840 higher if you're in San Francisco or in 85 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:54,400 the Bay Area. Maybe you might be earning 86 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:57,120 $100,000 um after a masters if you're in 87 00:03:57,120 --> 00:04:01,319 a sort of decent position. 88 00:04:01,519 --> 00:04:06,720 But the negative is that you have you're 89 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:10,200 kind of similar to thousands and 90 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:12,040 thousands of people across the world who 91 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:15,040 have done an engineering undergraduate, 92 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:17,600 Masters. You can overcome that, of course, 93 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:19,479 by doing extracurricular activities and 94 00:04:19,479 --> 00:04:21,919 doing the stuff in your own time. But 95 00:04:21,919 --> 00:04:24,240 that's that now. Contrast that with if 96 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:25,160 you have a 97 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:28,639 PhD. A PhD forces you to basically have 98 00:04:28,639 --> 00:04:32,240 three, four or five years extra education 99 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:35,280 and extra time to become an expert in 100 00:04:35,280 --> 00:04:38,479 your area. A PhD, by definition, is quite 101 00:04:38,479 --> 00:04:40,800 narrow, so you become focused in 102 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:43,800 something. So for me it was not even just 103 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:47,360 CFD, it was turbulence modelling within 104 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:50,560 CFD. The pro is, by the end of those three 105 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:53,680 or four years, or even five years, you 106 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:56,440 have become 107 00:04:56,440 --> 00:05:01,160 probably- let's say, only a less than 100 108 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:04,240 people, maybe certainly in your country, 109 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:06,280 or maybe broader than your country, maybe 110 00:05:06,280 --> 00:05:08,840 even Europe or the US know it as well as 111 00:05:08,840 --> 00:05:11,560 you do in your specific 112 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:14,680 area—very specific—but you have become 113 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:17,440 an expert in something. Most of the time 114 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:20,720 you, you will go there for, to company 115 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:22,680 interviews, potentially knowing as much 116 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:24,080 or more than sometimes a person 117 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:25,479 interviewing, because you've spent three 118 00:05:25,479 --> 00:05:28,440 or four years becoming very an expert in 119 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:31,000 that area. When I say no more than them, 120 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:33,000 but you know you you're, you're up on the 121 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:35,800 latest sort of advances. So you come in 122 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:39,240 with a different mindset. You've, um, 123 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:41,440 you've also had the chance to broaden 124 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:43,039 academically to other areas. You've had 125 00:05:43,039 --> 00:05:46,199 the opportunity to to go to conferences 126 00:05:46,199 --> 00:05:48,319 to see the sort of Academic Way of 127 00:05:48,319 --> 00:05:50,080 working, the writing style, the 128 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:52,360 investigation style, the sort of culture 129 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:54,680 it ingrains into you. You've maybe 130 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:57,080 learned more programming languages. 131 00:05:57,080 --> 00:05:59,800 You've done extracurricular activities, 132 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:02,160 because often during a PhD you've had 133 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:04,560 time to do other things. Um, because of 134 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:05,680 the nature of what it's like at a 135 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:07,720 university, you've been able to explore 136 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:09,000 the world a 137 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:11,759 bit. Those are all 138 00:06:11,759 --> 00:06:13,880 advantages, and later we can talk about 139 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:16,080 Academia or industry. Obviously PhD is an 140 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:17,880 essential requirement, essentially to go 141 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:22,120 into Academia. But what's the cons? The 142 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:23,840 cons are that 143 00:06:23,840 --> 00:06:26,120 you are still in University and 144 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:28,240 therefore you're getting paid less than 145 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:31,360 if you were in the industry. So PhD is 146 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:35,880 equivalent of maybe 20 to 30,000 a year. 147 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:37,440 I say equivalent because of the tax 148 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:39,560 systems. Sometimes it can be a bit less, 149 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:42,319 sometimes it can be a bit more. But 150 00:06:42,319 --> 00:06:44,960 remember, after four years or 5 years of 151 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:49,360 a PhD, your take-home sort of salary 152 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:51,280 equivalent, given that the people who 153 00:06:51,280 --> 00:06:53,039 have joined industry, probably each year, 154 00:06:53,039 --> 00:06:55,120 have being advancing. By the point when 155 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:59,759 you graduate, maybe at 27, you may be now 156 00:06:59,759 --> 00:07:02,160 um, earning, you know, 157 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:04,840 £30,000 or half the amount that that 158 00:07:04,840 --> 00:07:07,639 somebody else might be might be actually 159 00:07:07,639 --> 00:07:11,560 learning be earning. So you have to 160 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:14,840 factor that in. The other one is no one's 161 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:17,120 going to let you buy a house on a on a 162 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:20,520 PhD if you're a sole income um. So you 163 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:22,120 haven't been able to establish that sort 164 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:24,599 of security and some the buying place, 165 00:07:24,599 --> 00:07:25,919 unless you already have the money from 166 00:07:25,919 --> 00:07:28,800 alternative sources. But you have set 167 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:30,240 yourself up 168 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:33,280 up as an expert in 169 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:36,000 something that I think has longer term 170 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:38,000 implications. I'm biased- I did to go down 171 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:40,039 the PhD route, but I'll finish off by 172 00:07:40,039 --> 00:07:41,879 answer by saying I think you should do a 173 00:07:41,879 --> 00:07:44,840 PhD because it's a once- in a-lifetime 174 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:47,360 Opportunity. You know it's almost 175 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:49,400 impossible to do a PhD when you're older. 176 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:51,440 It's very, very difficult to do it with 177 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:53,039 family and work life and everything else 178 00:07:53,039 --> 00:07:56,639 and financially. So 179 00:07:56,639 --> 00:07:59,599 PhD? Absolutely, yes. There are issues 180 00:07:59,599 --> 00:08:01,759 with funding. You have to fund it. 181 00:08:01,759 --> 00:08:03,400 Typically, most people find some industry 182 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:05,440 funding or university funding, so I'm not 183 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:09,319 saying that it's possible for all um. 184 00:08:09,319 --> 00:08:12,319 Also, where you want to do your PhD. It 185 00:08:12,319 --> 00:08:15,000 does matter where you do your PhD in 186 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:17,720 terms of you know the name of the 187 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:20,199 University it. It opens doors if you do 188 00:08:20,199 --> 00:08:22,720 it as a top tier University, but it's 189 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:26,479 more important that you um actually are 190 00:08:26,479 --> 00:08:30,120 motivated and you enjoy your time. PhDs 191 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:32,360 have a very high failure rate. I don't 192 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:34,000 know the current statistics, but it's 193 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:36,200 probably at least half people fail their 194 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:38,519 PhDs or quit, because after the first 195 00:08:38,519 --> 00:08:41,479 year it's so you've really got to one be 196 00:08:41,479 --> 00:08:43,279 motivated to do it. So it's just not. It's 197 00:08:43,279 --> 00:08:45,839 not an easy option. It's very um 198 00:08:45,839 --> 00:08:48,200 independent, so you have to motivate 199 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:51,240 yourself. Um it's tough. People get in 200 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:52,680 difficult times again. You see other 201 00:08:52,680 --> 00:08:54,920 people moving on Beyond, getting better 202 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:56,519 jobs, getting more money, and you're still 203 00:08:56,519 --> 00:09:00,079 stuck doing your PhD. It can feel like um, 204 00:09:00,079 --> 00:09:01,720 but if you, if you pick the right 205 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:03,640 supervisor, the right environment, it can 206 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:06,040 actually be a very positive thing um for 207 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:10,279 you. So I think, all in all, a PhD in the 208 00:09:10,279 --> 00:09:12,480 right topic that you're interested in 209 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:15,480 and you really have a passion for, I 210 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:17,760 believe is the right decision. So on 211 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:20,560 question number one, PhD or no PhD, I 212 00:09:20,560 --> 00:09:22,279 would say 213 00:09:22,279 --> 00:09:27,320 PhD, okay. Second question: how do I become 214 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:29,480 a professor? 215 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:33,120 Well, first of all, um interesting, the 216 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:36,160 term Professor is different in different 217 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:38,880 countries. In the UK- and I think it's 218 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:40,480 already kind of going out of fashion- 219 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:44,040 this- it used to be lecturer, senior 220 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:47,560 lecturer, reader and then professor. So 221 00:09:47,560 --> 00:09:49,320 only once you got to the top rank you 222 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:52,000 could call yourself a professor. Um, I 223 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:53,760 don't know if they started it, but the US 224 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:56,160 is, at least for as long as I know, has 225 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:58,240 gone down the different route which is 226 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:01,360 assistant professor, associate professor 227 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:04,360 and Professor. So at all points people 228 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:06,600 tend to still call you Professor, even if 229 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:09,360 you're not technically a full professor. 230 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:11,040 And in Europe it's a little bit um 231 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:12,959 similar where you know people can still 232 00:10:12,959 --> 00:10:15,760 call you a sort of Professor. But it's an 233 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:17,800 interesting one that um. Probably people 234 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:20,360 who have worked hard to get to a full 235 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:22,640 Professor don't like people being called 236 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:24,720 a professor in their earlier years 237 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:26,240 because there is, you know, potentially 238 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:27,839 difference. But anyway, when you hear 239 00:10:27,839 --> 00:10:29,760 someone say I'm a professor, often there 240 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:33,240 is a different ranking system: assistant, 241 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:36,079 associate professor. So how do you become 242 00:10:36,079 --> 00:10:39,000 a full Professor? Well, I'm not a full 243 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:41,480 Professor, so I'm giving you, based upon 244 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:44,800 conversations with um people, but I can 245 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:46,880 give you at least the way I've seen it. 246 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:49,279 So, first of all, you've obviously had to 247 00:10:49,279 --> 00:10:51,839 do a PhD. I say Obviously you can be 248 00:10:51,839 --> 00:10:53,480 given an honorary 249 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:55,560 professorship. I guess some people who 250 00:10:55,560 --> 00:10:57,800 went straight into industry and spent 30 251 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:00,360 years could be given something honorary, but 252 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:03,880 today, as it stands unlikely, you would 253 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:06,160 almost certainly need a PhD. So you've 254 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:09,440 done your PhD, your, let's say, 27, again 255 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:11,320 assuming that you went to University at 256 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:13,680 at 18, and it depends in different places 257 00:11:13,680 --> 00:11:14,800 around the 258 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:20,000 world. So first thing is, almost nobody 259 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:23,040 becomes a professor after their PhD or 260 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:24,480 the first ranker being Professor, which 261 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:26,959 we'll call an assistant professor. Almost 262 00:11:26,959 --> 00:11:29,880 all need to do a postdoc, 263 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:32,639 postdoctoral research, postdoctoral 264 00:11:32,639 --> 00:11:35,120 research, PDRA positions—different names— 265 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:37,040 things in different countries and 266 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:39,120 different universities. Essentially, what 267 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:42,760 it is is a period of work, really now, or 268 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:44,920 research after your PhD. When you're a 269 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:47,120 PhD, you're still considered a student. 270 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:48,880 You know post-graduate student, but 271 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:50,920 you're still a student. You have a 272 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:54,200 supervisor. A postdoc is different 273 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:58,240 because you're now essentially a 274 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:01,040 contractor. That's the way I have now 275 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:02,680 realized what it is for people who, 276 00:12:02,680 --> 00:12:05,000 working in Industry, a contractor is 277 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:06,920 somebody who doesn't have a full-time 278 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:09,720 permanent position, but somebody who is 279 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:12,320 contracted to do work on a set time 280 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:14,519 period, and in Industry that's used to 281 00:12:14,519 --> 00:12:16,760 fill gaps, um, when you're not sure if you 282 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:19,199 have long-term funding. Unfortunately, in 283 00:12:19,199 --> 00:12:21,000 Academia that is the standard for a 284 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:23,279 postdoc. So for me it's basically a 285 00:12:23,279 --> 00:12:25,920 contractor. All this. So this is the first 286 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:29,360 stage. You are typically given a a one, 287 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:32,360 Two, Three or, very exceptionally, 5year 288 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:35,920 position. Um, normally it's funded through 289 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:39,160 research. So what that means is: later on, 290 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:41,639 a professor has won some 291 00:12:41,639 --> 00:12:43,480 funding 292 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:45,639 to do some 293 00:12:45,639 --> 00:12:48,600 research and they will either get a PhD 294 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:51,279 student to do that research, the negative 295 00:12:51,279 --> 00:12:53,639 being it takes a while for PhD to learn 296 00:12:53,639 --> 00:12:56,079 and, you know, be good enough to do it. Or 297 00:12:56,079 --> 00:12:58,040 they can get a postdoc someone who's done 298 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:00,639 a PhD, someone who is more productive and 299 00:13:00,639 --> 00:13:03,639 knowledgeable, and they will do the 300 00:13:03,639 --> 00:13:06,240 research. So what does a postdoc get you? 301 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:09,120 Well, a post now gets you more money. You 302 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:11,000 are actually an employee of the 303 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:14,399 University, not a student. Money is still 304 00:13:14,399 --> 00:13:18,040 not fantastic, um, relative scales to what 305 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:21,199 we'll talk about later. You may be on 30 306 00:13:21,199 --> 00:13:22,399 to 307 00:13:22,399 --> 00:13:25,480 40,000, so I'm going to guess in the 308 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:27,199 us70- 309 00:13:27,199 --> 00:13:29,440 $80,000. Apologies, I could be, I'm just 310 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:31,040 going to give a rough translation. It 311 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:32,519 will depend as well which university 312 00:13:32,519 --> 00:13:34,040 where you are in the world. You know 313 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:35,600 London PhD a little bit more because 314 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:36,600 London 315 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:39,399 waiting and um, so you'll be paid for 316 00:13:39,399 --> 00:13:42,440 that and your job is to do the 317 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:44,839 research. In some universities you may 318 00:13:44,839 --> 00:13:47,079 also be asked to do some teaching. Uh, in 319 00:13:47,079 --> 00:13:48,920 the oxfords and the cambridges that's a 320 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:50,759 way to supplement your income. At some of 321 00:13:50,759 --> 00:13:52,560 the colleges in more traditional 322 00:13:52,560 --> 00:13:54,320 universities, normally you're not 323 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:56,639 directly teaching. You may be helping. In 324 00:13:56,639 --> 00:13:59,199 the US, typically you do more teaching. 325 00:13:59,199 --> 00:14:00,959 It’s sort of a rite of passage, in a way, 326 00:14:00,959 --> 00:14:03,399 that you'll be helping um to do it. So it 327 00:14:03,399 --> 00:14:05,680 really does depend around the world. But 328 00:14:05,680 --> 00:14:07,519 during that time you're doing research 329 00:14:07,519 --> 00:14:10,279 and your aim- and I'm talking about the 330 00:14:10,279 --> 00:14:13,199 postdoc in the context of now becoming a 331 00:14:13,199 --> 00:14:17,560 professor- is to establish yourself as 332 00:14:17,560 --> 00:14:19,680 someone who could be an assistant 333 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:23,120 professor, as in. You need to publish, to 334 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:25,320 prove to the community and to your peers 335 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:28,079 that you are somebody that is qualified 336 00:14:28,079 --> 00:14:30,040 enough and ready to do their own 337 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:32,160 independent research. A postdoc is 338 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:33,680 normally doing research that has 339 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:37,639 essentially been one or proposed by an 340 00:14:37,639 --> 00:14:40,920 assistant professor or hire occasionally 341 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:43,440 during a PhD. You can apply for a 342 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:45,680 fellowship. A fellowship is something 343 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:49,040 where you have written- although still 344 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:52,160 likely with the help of some Professor- a 345 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:53,800 project that you want to get funding for, 346 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:56,279 to fund your postdoc, and that is highly 347 00:14:56,279 --> 00:14:58,040 advised and definitely a good stepping 348 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:00,680 stone. So most of governments have these 349 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:02,480 sort of funding. They’re very sought 350 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:05,000 after but definitely a good idea, cuz if 351 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:07,639 you win one you've secured yourself 352 00:15:07,639 --> 00:15:09,920 probably three years of funding, some d l 353 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:12,240 more. You've given yourself already a 354 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:14,639 stepping stone of esteem because you won 355 00:15:14,639 --> 00:15:17,560 some fellowship and often those people 356 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:19,839 then have a better chance of you know, 357 00:15:19,839 --> 00:15:21,399 moving towards something because they've 358 00:15:21,399 --> 00:15:24,320 already got a track record during those, 359 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:25,839 let's say, three years. You have to 360 00:15:25,839 --> 00:15:28,079 publish like mad. You have to work hard 361 00:15:28,079 --> 00:15:31,519 and start interviewing straight away. I 362 00:15:31,519 --> 00:15:32,800 say this because this is the mistake I 363 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:35,040 made. I mean my career was a little bit 364 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:38,079 different, I'll talk about that later- but 365 00:15:38,079 --> 00:15:39,800 during that time you have to really go 366 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:44,440 for it. The other thing is that, um, now, 367 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:46,920 during that post, most people say if you 368 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:50,120 don't move out of a post, do within 3 369 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:52,959 years you're very unlikely to. And I've 370 00:15:52,959 --> 00:15:55,120 seen- and I didn't believe it at first 371 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:57,680 but now I kind of believe it- all of the 372 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:00,040 funding mechanisms and the sort of way 373 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:02,000 everything's done and the age that you 374 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:04,680 are and the salary that you'll accept. 375 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:07,480 All gets harder the older you are. So 376 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:08,800 those first three years you have the 377 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:11,199 best chance of making it and you have to 378 00:16:11,199 --> 00:16:14,160 be fully prepared to move. Most 379 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:15,959 universities only have one or two 380 00:16:15,959 --> 00:16:18,519 positions opening up for a new assistant 381 00:16:18,519 --> 00:16:21,639 professor in a particular topic. So 382 00:16:21,639 --> 00:16:23,680 statistically it's most likely you're 383 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:24,880 going to have to move to another 384 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:27,120 University or even another country, but 385 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:28,959 let's just assume another University in 386 00:16:28,959 --> 00:16:31,120 your particular country to get that 387 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:34,839 first level academic job. There are again 388 00:16:34,839 --> 00:16:38,240 sort of fellowships and schemes, um, but 389 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:39,000 the 390 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:42,360 universities are typically doing it to 391 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:45,560 fill teaching needs, because primarily 392 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:47,440 teaching is one of the ways that 393 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:49,279 University brings in the money to pay 394 00:16:49,279 --> 00:16:53,959 for a position. So if you are um in 395 00:16:53,959 --> 00:16:56,120 charge of an engineering College 396 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:59,160 University Department, you need some to 397 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:01,720 help teach your courses. And, as we'll 398 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:03,519 talk about later, the older you get and 399 00:17:03,519 --> 00:17:05,199 the more close to get to a full 400 00:17:05,199 --> 00:17:07,240 Professor, the less you want to teach. So 401 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:09,199 you need these young blood coming in to 402 00:17:09,199 --> 00:17:12,120 do the teaching. So one of the primary 403 00:17:12,120 --> 00:17:15,679 focuses of hiring an assistant professor 404 00:17:15,679 --> 00:17:17,880 is to teach and to cover the teaching Lo. 405 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:19,039 So they need to be able to do that and 406 00:17:19,039 --> 00:17:21,079 that's where the funding comes in. And 407 00:17:21,079 --> 00:17:22,760 there can only be a couple of them 408 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:23,839 because you only have a certain number 409 00:17:23,839 --> 00:17:26,799 of students. So this is why you- my point 410 00:17:26,799 --> 00:17:29,120 is you may have to move. So this is 411 00:17:29,120 --> 00:17:31,039 something we'll look again in the 412 00:17:31,039 --> 00:17:32,559 negatives- Academia or industry. This is 413 00:17:32,559 --> 00:17:34,200 something to be aware of. Let's assume 414 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:36,520 now you do become assistant 415 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:39,600 professor. Now it depends in different 416 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:42,679 countries, but in the US, and increasingly 417 00:17:42,679 --> 00:17:45,480 also in some of the sort of top tier UK 418 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:47,240 universities, that is still not a 419 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:50,600 permanent position, that is still not a 420 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:53,440 sort of Lifetime position. That is what 421 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:56,080 they call getting ready on, like sort of 422 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:58,480 moving towards tenure. Tenure is really 423 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:00,600 when you become an assistant professor. 424 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:02,200 Now I hope I’m not getting this terminology 425 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:03,600 wrong and if I am, please write in the 426 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:05,159 comments. But to the best of my 427 00:18:05,159 --> 00:18:07,400 knowledge this is the way I've seen it 428 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:09,280 and I've got many colleagues and friends 429 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:11,320 who are at various levels of being 430 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:13,360 professors and and 431 00:18:13,360 --> 00:18:17,880 not. So you go through that process, you 432 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:19,720 become an assistant professor, but that's 433 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:22,159 not the end of the journey. Then you have 434 00:18:22,159 --> 00:18:23,039 to 435 00:18:23,039 --> 00:18:26,760 fight, you know, pretty hard to get to the 436 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:28,360 next level, which is your sort of 437 00:18:28,360 --> 00:18:31,520 permanent associate professor position. 438 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:34,640 Now in the US that's typically 5 years, 439 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:38,080 um, sometimes it can be less. In the UK um 440 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:41,200 3 to 5 years it it's kind of different 441 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:43,039 in different universities in the UK. 442 00:18:43,039 --> 00:18:44,559 Sometimes they use the lecturer/senior 443 00:18:44,559 --> 00:18:47,240 lecturer titles, and, um, sometimes your 444 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:49,520 lecturer position could already be permanent. 445 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:51,159 Like I said, more the top tier they're 446 00:18:51,159 --> 00:18:53,320 trying to still Whittle out, so they 447 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:54,919 don't want to make permanent positions 448 00:18:54,919 --> 00:18:56,600 until you've got even further into your 449 00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:59,679 career. In the US it’s most definitely like that. 450 00:18:59,679 --> 00:19:01,880 You're assistant professor. You still are 451 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:04,039 working to get that tenure of being an 452 00:19:04,039 --> 00:19:06,799 associate professor. So during those 5 453 00:19:06,799 --> 00:19:09,679 years you are might mad, needing to 454 00:19:09,679 --> 00:19:12,120 publish, needing to bring money in, 455 00:19:12,120 --> 00:19:15,200 needing to get more students and teach 456 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:16,919 and this is probably one of the hardest 457 00:19:16,919 --> 00:19:18,799 periods. This is where the burnout 458 00:19:18,799 --> 00:19:21,280 happens. This is where people quit. It's 459 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:23,440 like a triangle. You're a student at the 460 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:27,039 bottom, PhD, postdoc, assistant 461 00:19:27,039 --> 00:19:29,120 professor, bearing in mind. Now you're 462 00:19:29,120 --> 00:19:31,400 probably 30, 31, if you've gone through a 463 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:33,720 standard sort of age thing, and you're 464 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:36,159 still in the UK, maybe only earning 465 00:19:36,159 --> 00:19:39,280 50,000. I say only. It's all relative. You 466 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:41,320 know to different, where you are, what 467 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:43,760 potential get to, but you're working flat 468 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:45,640 out, you're working weekends, you are 469 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:47,720 traveling around it. Academia at this 470 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:49,720 time is one of the hardest 471 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:53,400 jobs and you have to be trying to 472 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:56,480 establish yourself internationally as 473 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:57,360 well as 474 00:19:57,360 --> 00:19:59,559 nationally, getting into doing 475 00:19:59,559 --> 00:20:01,960 Publications and everything and- and you 476 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:03,720 know, review and play the politics, trying 477 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:05,120 to win them, funding from different 478 00:20:05,120 --> 00:20:07,679 agencies and Industry, funding and 479 00:20:07,679 --> 00:20:10,600 nurturing students, trying to get posts, 480 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:12,080 trying to get 481 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:15,679 PhDs. And then you maybe you make 482 00:20:15,679 --> 00:20:18,400 associate professor or senior lecturer 483 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:21,159 and I should be clear: some people never 484 00:20:21,159 --> 00:20:23,760 get beyond that. Some people never get 485 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,799 Beyond a senior lecturer or an associate 486 00:20:26,799 --> 00:20:29,679 professor. Now, bearing in mind, you may be 487 00:20:29,679 --> 00:20:32,240 towards, you know, your late 30s at this 488 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:34,159 point, or maybe even 489 00:20:34,159 --> 00:20:37,280 older, maybe in your early 40s or later, 490 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:40,159 depending on how successful you've been. 491 00:20:40,159 --> 00:20:44,120 At this point, becoming a full Professor 492 00:20:44,120 --> 00:20:47,679 becomes another sort of time bound thing. 493 00:20:47,679 --> 00:20:49,720 You have to really establish yourself. 494 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:51,159 You have to probably be taking on 495 00:20:51,159 --> 00:20:53,440 departmental duties, you have to be 496 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:55,960 supervising 10 or 12 students, you have 497 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:59,000 to be creating centers or or or new 498 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:00,200 areas. You have to be on the 499 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:02,240 international stage, you have to be 500 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:04,360 called to panels, you have to be seen as 501 00:21:04,360 --> 00:21:06,520 an internationally leading person, 502 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:09,159 editing maybe a journal or co-editing a 503 00:21:09,159 --> 00:21:12,039 journal. All this and playing all the 504 00:21:12,039 --> 00:21:15,799 politics game to become a full 505 00:21:15,799 --> 00:21:18,000 professor. And most people, if you're 506 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:19,679 mid-40s and getting a full Professor, 507 00:21:19,679 --> 00:21:22,159 you've done very well. Often people are 508 00:21:22,159 --> 00:21:24,120 in their 50s before they get a full 509 00:21:24,120 --> 00:21:26,400 professor and some never at all. And this 510 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:28,320 is again dependent on the how ambitious 511 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:29,440 the person 512 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:32,279 is and the starting salary of a 513 00:21:32,279 --> 00:21:33,600 professor. I just checked, I think in the 514 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:37,600 UK is about 70 something 515 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:42,880 thousand. I say that because the next. So 516 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:44,559 so you've made it. Congratulations, you 517 00:21:44,559 --> 00:21:47,120 can now call yourself a full professor, 518 00:21:47,120 --> 00:21:50,320 and at that point I would say from the 519 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:52,840 professors that I know this is when 520 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:55,240 Academia, in my opinion, becomes a very 521 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:58,240 worthwhile place, because you have 522 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:02,120 reached the top kind of. You are 523 00:22:02,120 --> 00:22:04,120 internationally known, you are regarded, 524 00:22:04,120 --> 00:22:06,760 you're an expert, you're, you're sort of, 525 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:10,240 you're secure, you've got a good salary, 526 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:12,320 um, you can sort of pick and choose your 527 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:14,960 teaching a little bit and from that 528 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:16,960 point on until you retire, you can sort 529 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,600 of enjoy that P. It's still hard, don't 530 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:21,360 get me wrong. I you know professors are 531 00:22:21,360 --> 00:22:23,640 working very hard, but there's a certain 532 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:24,919 thing at that where I think you can 533 00:22:24,919 --> 00:22:27,760 enjoy the fruits of your labor. Um, so 534 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:30,600 that’s a definite pro. But just consider all 535 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:32,039 the stuff I've said. I've how to get 536 00:22:32,039 --> 00:22:34,200 there, which I would say: the more 537 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:35,760 esteemed the 538 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:39,200 university, the harder that gets. Some 539 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:41,240 people will end up jumping to a lower 540 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:43,400 University to get that Professor title 541 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:44,919 because they think they can't get in the 542 00:22:44,919 --> 00:22:47,080 current one. Um, so there's a lot of 543 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:48,919 moving around. But yeah, so that's the 544 00:22:48,919 --> 00:22:52,080 question: how do I get to be a professor? 545 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:53,840 Of course I could talk for hours about 546 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:55,679 this more. I'm always interested in this 547 00:22:55,679 --> 00:22:57,320 kind of stuff and I still go to lots of 548 00:22:57,320 --> 00:22:58,799 conferences and speak to people. I'm 549 00:22:58,799 --> 00:23:00,799 always intrigued and maybe I'm giving 550 00:23:00,799 --> 00:23:03,080 the harder bits of it, uh, but anyway, I'd 551 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:04,640 be interested. If people have a similar 552 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:05,799 experience, you should write in the 553 00:23:05,799 --> 00:23:10,720 comments, um, or reach out to me, okay. Next 554 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:14,400 question: Academia or 555 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:16,840 industry, often a question people have at 556 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:18,320 the beginning of their career, at the 557 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:20,120 middle and the 558 00:23:20,120 --> 00:23:24,840 end. So let's now focus on an industrial 559 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:27,880 career and I'm going to use um two 560 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:31,559 different sort of uh places. I'm going to 561 00:23:31,559 --> 00:23:35,760 um pick a Formula 1 team for people into 562 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:39,080 Formula 1 and maybe a a sort of 563 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:42,159 Automotive or, you know, aerospace, okay, 564 00:23:42,159 --> 00:23:45,320 so Formula One. So you finish your 565 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:46,960 undergraduate and you try and get into 566 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:50,640 Formula One. That's quite hard, um very 567 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:51,919 tough to get into formula straight after 568 00:23:51,919 --> 00:23:53,320 a master's degree, undergrad, because you 569 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:54,760 are literally competing against 570 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,000 thousands of people. If you come in at 571 00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:58,240 that time you would be a junior. You 572 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,240 probably on 25, 30,000, like a pretty low 573 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,120 salary. Formula 1 doesn't pay that great 574 00:24:03,120 --> 00:24:06,600 at the beginning. If you've done a PhD- 27, 575 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:09,760 28- you may come in at 40 odd, maybe 50 576 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:11,480 and apologies if some of my numbers are 577 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,000 not spot on. And what will you? You'll be 578 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,760 doing. You'll be seen still as a graduate 579 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:19,679 or Junior. For those first few years you 580 00:24:19,679 --> 00:24:21,200 will just be doing what you're told. 581 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:23,159 You'll be trying to be ambitious and 582 00:24:23,159 --> 00:24:24,679 progressing, but you'll be, you know, a 583 00:24:24,679 --> 00:24:27,120 member of a team as an 584 00:24:27,120 --> 00:24:29,760 individual and then maybe after two or 585 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:32,559 three years, so maybe you're sort of uh 586 00:24:32,559 --> 00:24:35,279 in your mid to late 20s if you didn't do 587 00:24:35,279 --> 00:24:37,919 a PhD, or in your 30s if you did, you may 588 00:24:37,919 --> 00:24:40,320 move to being a sort of normal. Let's say 589 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:42,399 aerodynamics- I'm going to take 590 00:24:42,399 --> 00:24:44,559 aerodynamics. At that point you're still 591 00:24:44,559 --> 00:24:47,200 an individual um, but you you maybe are 592 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,159 sort of shadowing a few Juniors and 593 00:24:49,159 --> 00:24:50,919 graduates. You're helping them out a bit 594 00:24:50,919 --> 00:24:52,480 and maybe your salar's got up to more 595 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,480 like 50 order or 596 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:58,960 60. Next, 3 years later you may be trying 597 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:00,840 to become a senior, or three or four 598 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:02,840 years later. So maybe not a senior 599 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,120 aerodynamicist or senior, and maybe now 600 00:25:05,120 --> 00:25:08,080 you be getting up to more like 880,000, 601 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:11,000 70, 80,000 as a senior. Maybe you're in 602 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,080 your early 30s or mid-30s, depending on 603 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:16,799 um. You know when you started. I'm just 604 00:25:16,799 --> 00:25:18,720 going to pause there for a 605 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,760 moment to realize that you could be a 606 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:22,960 senior, a 607 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,760 aerodynamicist, earning £70,000 608 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:30,080 in your mid-30s or early 30s, earning the 609 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,640 same as a full Professor- a university, 610 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:35,279 that's true, excluding- and I should have 611 00:25:35,279 --> 00:25:36,679 said in the previous one- some professors 612 00:25:36,679 --> 00:25:38,480 do supplement their income by doing 613 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:40,799 consultancy work and startups and all 614 00:25:40,799 --> 00:25:42,480 this. But just bear that in mind. Formula 615 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:45,799 one pays quite well: by your early 30s 616 00:25:45,799 --> 00:25:47,000 you could be earning the same as someone 617 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,399 who's probably in their mid-40s as a? U 618 00:25:50,399 --> 00:25:53,159 Professor. Then you could spend another 619 00:25:53,159 --> 00:25:55,799 three, four years, let's say now- and by 620 00:25:55,799 --> 00:25:57,039 the way, I should say Formula One is 621 00:25:57,039 --> 00:26:00,080 incredibly tough working hours, very, very 622 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,399 difficult. So, um, potentially working on 623 00:26:03,399 --> 00:26:05,240 weekends- although I'd say in Academia, 624 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:06,600 sometimes even harder working in the 625 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:08,679 earlier years- sort of Tire between the 626 00:26:08,679 --> 00:26:11,600 two. You can then become like a principal 627 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,520 or a deputy principal. So this is after 628 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:16,799 maybe 8 to 10 years of being in. So 629 00:26:16,799 --> 00:26:19,799 you're in your sort of mid 30s to late 630 00:26:19,799 --> 00:26:21,919 30s. Some of the people I know are- you 631 00:26:21,919 --> 00:26:23,880 know, sort of principals who started at 632 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:25,960 a similar time, or maybe sort of a deputy 633 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:27,760 team leader and now they could be 634 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:29,360 earning 635 00:26:29,360 --> 00:26:33,120 £100,000 a year, bit bit more or a bit 636 00:26:33,120 --> 00:26:36,279 less. You move on a little bit. But now 637 00:26:36,279 --> 00:26:37,760 you you're having to really manage a 638 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,159 team more. Potentially you've got people 639 00:26:40,159 --> 00:26:42,679 underneath you when you're a certainly a 640 00:26:42,679 --> 00:26:45,200 principal or a team leader. So let's say 641 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:46,559 you go a little bit further again, 642 00:26:46,559 --> 00:26:48,760 another three, four years. Maybe now you 643 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,320 could be a sort of Deputy team or Deputy 644 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:52,840 head of aerodynamics. Maybe you're in 645 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,279 your mid 40s, early to mid 40s. You could 646 00:26:56,279 --> 00:26:58,960 be earned now 150, 647 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:00,640 1702, 648 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:05,240 200,000, so well beyond what a professor 649 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,640 earns. So if you look equally at someone 650 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:13,080 who's in the um mid-40s and maybe have 651 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,360 become a deputy head of era, even head of 652 00:27:15,360 --> 00:27:17,760 Arrow, where maybe they're earning 653 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:20,200 250,000, 300,000 or even more depending 654 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,159 on the team. The time it takes for you to 655 00:27:23,159 --> 00:27:25,200 get to that position, the time time it 656 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:26,840 gets you to 657 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:29,480 Academia, is you can see why. At all those 658 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:30,760 points there are some people who 659 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:32,919 question: should they stay in Academia? 660 00:27:32,919 --> 00:27:34,760 Now I would argue at that point, the 661 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:36,760 stress level when you're a deputy or a 662 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:38,919 head of aerodynamics versus the stress 663 00:27:38,919 --> 00:27:40,440 level when you're a 664 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,120 professor. I would argue that, and job 665 00:27:43,120 --> 00:27:45,120 security, you're probably far more secure 666 00:27:45,120 --> 00:27:47,200 in your academic job as a full professor 667 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:49,480 and you could top up your money. You know 668 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:51,320 quite well, by being such a world expert 669 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:53,960 you could be earning £200,000 in total 670 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:55,720 if you, you know, do lots of consultancy 671 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:57,640 work and you'll have a little startup on 672 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,000 the side, like many do. All within the 673 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,039 rules, um, and I say the starting solo for 674 00:28:03,039 --> 00:28:05,159 a professor of 75, let's say in the UK. 675 00:28:05,159 --> 00:28:06,640 But they get higher and higher. There's 676 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,240 incremental, so they could be over 100 um 677 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:11,399 by the time they're in their 50s or more, 678 00:28:11,399 --> 00:28:12,840 depending on the University, if they've, 679 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:14,760 you know, really 680 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:19,039 esteemed and um, but they're still quite 681 00:28:19,039 --> 00:28:20,799 far off. Let's say formula 682 00:28:20,799 --> 00:28:23,120 one, and if you get even higher in 683 00:28:23,120 --> 00:28:24,480 Formula One, People earning half a 684 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:25,880 million or 685 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:28,279 more, but they're exceptional, that's, you 686 00:28:28,279 --> 00:28:31,159 know, sort team principle or very high up. 687 00:28:31,159 --> 00:28:33,360 But that's not the norm of standard 688 00:28:33,360 --> 00:28:35,600 engineering industry. If you were a sort 689 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,519 of car company- Jag, Land Rover- all you 690 00:28:38,519 --> 00:28:41,120 have to do is look at Job adverts- um, you 691 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:43,480 are going to be earning less than that. 692 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:44,760 You're. Working hours are probably going 693 00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:46,440 to be a little bit easier. Form one is 694 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,080 known to be difficult, but you may be 695 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:51,720 earning, you know, 40 to 50,000 in your 696 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:52,919 late 697 00:28:52,919 --> 00:28:56,480 30s to 40s, or you could be earning 60, 70, 698 00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:58,799 a bit more. But what are you going to be 699 00:28:58,799 --> 00:29:01,440 doing? Well, at that point you are going 700 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:03,080 to be in a more corporate company. Of 701 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:05,640 course I should say the university is 702 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:07,519 very hectic, but you have a lot of 703 00:29:07,519 --> 00:29:08,960 freedom on your time. You're kind of like 704 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,320 your own boss in a way. At a university 705 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:12,720 it's, it's always known that they're all 706 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,480 like little, um, CTO, you know, Professor, 707 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:16,519 like they're running their own little 708 00:29:16,519 --> 00:29:18,360 company. So it's a very different 709 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:20,240 lifestyle. You have a lot more freedom in 710 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,799 a way, um, but in in the industry one 711 00:29:23,799 --> 00:29:24,919 you're, you're part of a, you know a 712 00:29:24,919 --> 00:29:26,559 company. There's corporate structures. 713 00:29:26,559 --> 00:29:29,000 Often if you're in a larger company 714 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,919 and the way to progress is usually by 715 00:29:31,919 --> 00:29:36,080 managing people, and this is true of uh 716 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:37,679 in Academia in a way. You're often 717 00:29:37,679 --> 00:29:39,399 managing, you know, a group of students 718 00:29:39,399 --> 00:29:40,840 and postdocs and 719 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:44,320 teaching and Engineering the same. So the 720 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:45,840 question becomes: 721 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,679 Academia or 722 00:29:48,679 --> 00:29:51,320 industry? I would say you have to do 723 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,600 both. I'm biased because I've split my 724 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:55,519 time a little bit between 725 00:29:55,519 --> 00:29:58,399 two. I think if you only go down the 726 00:29:58,399 --> 00:30:02,799 academic route, you will never be as 727 00:30:02,799 --> 00:30:05,080 knowledgeable as if you had spent some 728 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:07,640 time in Industry, because it is 729 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:08,960 fundamentally just a different place to 730 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,240 work. It's different attitude on on what 731 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:13,679 he's engineering- I'm talking from an 732 00:30:13,679 --> 00:30:15,519 engineering side. There's certain stuff 733 00:30:15,519 --> 00:30:17,320 that you only realize. Ah, now I 734 00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:18,799 understand why. You understand the 735 00:30:18,799 --> 00:30:21,120 mindset, the culture, not only the science 736 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,000 and the Practical engineering, but just 737 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:26,320 the way that industry works. But equally, 738 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:28,960 if you've only been in the industry, 739 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:30,760 I think it's a shame that you're not 740 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:32,720 seeing the good side of Academia, in the 741 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:34,120 way to stretch your mind and to work 742 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:36,120 with students. And the good thing, there 743 00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:37,799 are schemes that allow the movement of 744 00:30:37,799 --> 00:30:41,559 both sides. So there are people who move 745 00:30:41,559 --> 00:30:45,120 from um Academia to Industry, either 746 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:47,320 permanently or through sort of like 747 00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:49,440 comment, and increasingly is also the 748 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:50,919 other way around, where academics can go 749 00:30:50,919 --> 00:30:53,360 into industry for a year or or sort of 750 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:54,840 time 751 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:58,519 periods. Now I could end the episode 752 00:30:58,519 --> 00:31:01,120 there and I would say that would be a 753 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:04,399 fair reflection of, certainly in the UK. 754 00:31:04,399 --> 00:31:08,480 And again, um, it's kind of the angle I 755 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:12,279 can say is: what I certainly knew up to, 756 00:31:12,279 --> 00:31:16,360 let's say, uh, four years ago. I thought 757 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:17,919 that was basically it. Do you? You know 758 00:31:17,919 --> 00:31:19,840 Formula One's sort of the best paying 759 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:22,880 job but most Industries somewhere in the 760 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:25,120 middle. You have Academia, you have the 761 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:26,639 pros and 762 00:31:26,639 --> 00:31:30,080 cons, but then there's another option- and 763 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:32,519 I think in the? U, in the US this was far 764 00:31:32,519 --> 00:31:36,200 more known- which is the tech 765 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:39,559 sector, which is the 766 00:31:39,559 --> 00:31:43,799 Amazon, the apples, the 767 00:31:43,799 --> 00:31:46,200 Facebooks, the Googles, the Microsoft- I'm 768 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:47,880 probably missing out 769 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,200 names- and the sort of 770 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,000 associated startups and companies that 771 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,120 surround those sort of big tech 772 00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:58,360 companies. Now you could also ask, argue, 773 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:00,720 to be fair, that the Teslas and those are 774 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:02,919 kind of like tech companies. And NVIDIA- 775 00:32:02,919 --> 00:32:04,159 sorry, I missed out 776 00:32:04,159 --> 00:32:06,360 NVIDIA. That's another option that I 777 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:08,080 would highly recommend people think 778 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:09,600 about. Now I'm biased because I work from 779 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:11,519 those companies, but this is no way me 780 00:32:11,519 --> 00:32:13,519 trying to say, come and work for ads, not 781 00:32:13,519 --> 00:32:15,679 at all. I'm just saying as a 782 00:32:15,679 --> 00:32:20,679 sector. So what? What is it? Tech companies, 783 00:32:20,679 --> 00:32:24,440 um, are now into many areas of 784 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:27,880 engineering because the Advent of ma, 785 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:29,639 machine learning and computer science 786 00:32:29,639 --> 00:32:31,080 and numerical methods and high 787 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:32,080 performance 788 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:34,240 Computing. Engineering is no longer just 789 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:35,919 with your hands building something. It is 790 00:32:35,919 --> 00:32:37,639 inherently a computer thing and 791 00:32:37,639 --> 00:32:40,159 increasing now machine learning, so the 792 00:32:40,159 --> 00:32:42,320 closeness. It used to be that it was only 793 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:44,600 computer science people who went to work 794 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:46,799 for tech companies, just developers. 795 00:32:46,799 --> 00:32:48,519 Increasingly now I'm seeing a lot more 796 00:32:48,519 --> 00:32:51,039 people come from engineering backgrounds 797 00:32:51,039 --> 00:32:52,200 to go into tech companies because 798 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:55,000 they're working on more Tech problems. 799 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,519 You know robotics or Computing or fluid 800 00:32:57,519 --> 00:32:59,679 dynamics, or there are a lot more 801 00:32:59,679 --> 00:33:01,159 opportunities. 802 00:33:01,159 --> 00:33:04,360 So if you are early on in your career 803 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:06,159 and you've just come out from doing an 804 00:33:06,159 --> 00:33:09,320 engineering undergraduate or Masters, it 805 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,039 may be that actually, instead of you 806 00:33:12,039 --> 00:33:13,840 going to the classic car company or 807 00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:15,840 Aircraft Company, you may consider 808 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:17,919 looking at a tech company. Now you may 809 00:33:17,919 --> 00:33:20,120 need to slightly change your skill set, 810 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:22,080 focus more on the sort of data science 811 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:23,279 and the Computing a little bit, 812 00:33:23,279 --> 00:33:25,519 particularly in those early stage jobs, 813 00:33:25,519 --> 00:33:27,840 because that is, you know, the most jobs. 814 00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:31,159 Cloud computing is massive. Um, you know 815 00:33:31,159 --> 00:33:32,720 high-performance computing or or 816 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:34,200 Computing from the. You know chip 817 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:37,320 companies, AI- now so many AI companies. So 818 00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:43,320 where do they differ? Well, they are a um. 819 00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:46,519 First of all, if you go and do a PhD- 820 00:33:46,519 --> 00:33:49,200 sorry, let's assume you've done a PhD- it 821 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:50,480 certainly makes it 822 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:52,679 easier. postdoc is not a permanent 823 00:33:52,679 --> 00:33:55,720 position. Tech company is a permanent 824 00:33:55,720 --> 00:34:00,240 position, so for most companies anyway. So 825 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,120 you've got a post stock that pays maybe 826 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:03,880 like 40K- 827 00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:07,240 45k and a starting Tech sector job that 828 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:10,760 may be paying more, like 70k or 80k. And 829 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,440 if you're in the US you're talking even 830 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:15,079 higher than that, like in the hundreds of 831 00:34:15,079 --> 00:34:17,000 thousands of dollars, low hundreds, for like 832 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:20,320 someone after their PhD. So you're like: 833 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,679 oh okay, so that's actually a really good 834 00:34:23,679 --> 00:34:26,119 salary. So someone just have their PhD 835 00:34:26,119 --> 00:34:28,359 could potentially 60, 70,000. Now I'm not 836 00:34:28,359 --> 00:34:29,720 talking about banking or financial 837 00:34:29,720 --> 00:34:31,879 sector too, I know, but actually it’s 838 00:34:31,879 --> 00:34:33,760 important for me to say that because a 839 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,639 lot of Engineers fought. The only way 840 00:34:36,639 --> 00:34:39,760 that I can get a really good salary is 841 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:41,240 to go and work for a consulting or 842 00:34:41,240 --> 00:34:43,800 banking company instead of engineering. 843 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:45,639 And what I'm saying to you is there are. 844 00:34:45,639 --> 00:34:47,839 There is another alternative, which is 845 00:34:47,839 --> 00:34:49,679 into the tech sector, which increasingly, 846 00:34:49,679 --> 00:34:52,800 is now becoming a quite a broad sector. 847 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:54,839 So you don't have to abandon engineering 848 00:34:54,839 --> 00:34:56,399 to. You know, go into the finance sector 849 00:34:56,399 --> 00:34:59,280 or go into. You can stay as an engineer, 850 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:00,720 but into the tech sector. This is 851 00:35:00,720 --> 00:35:03,200 something I had no clue about, didn't 852 00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:05,480 even know about these companies until I 853 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:07,280 was, you know, until four or five years 854 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:10,280 ago. So, and how do they progress? Well, it 855 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:13,200 is tough if you join after your PhD in 856 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:15,920 tech tech company that is, you know you 857 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,480 are still at the sort of bottom end of 858 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:20,720 the ladder and you're going to have to 859 00:35:20,720 --> 00:35:22,640 work hard to re differentiate, even with 860 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:26,079 a PhD. Um, you're going to have a tough, 861 00:35:26,079 --> 00:35:28,320 tough job but 862 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:30,079 as you 863 00:35:30,079 --> 00:35:33,839 progress your salary is going to be even 864 00:35:33,839 --> 00:35:36,920 surpassing sort of Formula One, to the 865 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,079 point that if you're into your sort of 866 00:35:40,079 --> 00:35:41,079 early 867 00:35:41,079 --> 00:35:43,680 40s, let's, let's equate these different 868 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:45,119 role. Well, let's, let's forget about 869 00:35:45,119 --> 00:35:47,560 salary for a moment. So for the tech 870 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:48,960 companies you move through, you can 871 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:50,640 progress from a sort of they have 872 00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:52,160 different leveling systems- there's lots 873 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:54,319 of website on there that show them sort 874 00:35:54,319 --> 00:35:57,079 of standard up, going to a normal, to a 875 00:35:57,079 --> 00:35:59,640 senior, to a principal, to a senior 876 00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:03,280 principal. Um, interestingly, most tech 877 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:06,040 companies allow you to stay as an IC, an 878 00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:07,760 individual contributor, if you want to 879 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:09,240 like: I am an individual, I don't manage 880 00:36:09,240 --> 00:36:12,160 anybody. I personally like that. There 881 00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:14,200 aren't many companies that you can keep 882 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:15,880 progressing and keep progressing and 883 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:18,440 never had managed anybody. And what's it 884 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:21,720 like? Well, it's kind of exciting because 885 00:36:21,720 --> 00:36:23,400 you're in a fast moving environment. So 886 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:25,520 it's it has. I'd say the tech sector has 887 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:28,800 a lot of analogies with academia. 888 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:32,280 and, and that's why, actually, of all the 889 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:34,240 people who are assistant professors or 890 00:36:34,240 --> 00:36:37,599 postdocs, I see so many of them who have 891 00:36:37,599 --> 00:36:39,440 actually moved over to the tech sector, 892 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:41,520 either before they became an associate 893 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:45,319 professor, assistant as an associate or 894 00:36:45,319 --> 00:36:46,880 even as a full, but we'll talk about a 895 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:47,880 full in a minute, because I think that's 896 00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:49,119 what's an interesting 897 00:36:49,119 --> 00:36:52,119 distinction. So if you were to go through 898 00:36:52,119 --> 00:36:53,400 that 899 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:56,800 route and let's now compare, so you've 900 00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,280 got someone who, let's say, an associate 901 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:02,760 professor at their end of their 902 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:04,599 30s, 903 00:37:04,599 --> 00:37:06,720 earning 65, 904 00:37:06,720 --> 00:37:09,920 70,000 or maybe 905 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:11,680 50, 906 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:13,680 $60,000, massively depending on which 907 00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:15,760 university or in the US. You got someone 908 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:18,640 who's in Industry who's maybe earning 50 909 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:21,400 60,000, so not that different between, 910 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:23,839 maybe, an associate professor and some in 911 00:37:23,839 --> 00:37:25,240 the industry, depending on how far 912 00:37:25,240 --> 00:37:27,800 they've advanced in their age. And then 913 00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:29,440 you have someone who in the tech sector, 914 00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:31,680 who could be earning 915 00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:35,280 £150,000 or more, so it's almost double 916 00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:38,599 the salary, and in the US you could have 917 00:37:38,599 --> 00:37:41,839 somebody who's earning 918 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:46,720 $400,000. So so many of these people are 919 00:37:46,720 --> 00:37:50,240 thinking: I'm I, I you know why am I 920 00:37:50,240 --> 00:37:51,800 working so hard in Academia? I can just 921 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:53,200 get paid so much more and just join a 922 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:55,280 tech company. Now you lose some of the 923 00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:57,119 freedom of the of the Academia, of course, 924 00:37:57,119 --> 00:37:58,880 but it's. It's kind of interesting that 925 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:00,040 move. Now don't get me wrong. There are 926 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,480 some top us universities who pay very 927 00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:05,359 high to take an average sort of thing, 928 00:38:05,359 --> 00:38:09,119 and particularly in the UK. So I know I'm 929 00:38:09,119 --> 00:38:10,640 jumping around all the place. I think 930 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:12,040 this is sort of 931 00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:15,200 interesting. What about a full Professor? 932 00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:17,680 So you're a full Professor, you may be on 933 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:22,480 80, 90,000 or in the US maybe, let's say, 934 00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:24,520 $300,000 or even 935 00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:26,560 higher. But then you look at a tech 936 00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:28,319 sector and you think, hold on, I'm a full 937 00:38:28,319 --> 00:38:29,880 Professor, I'm one of the top people in 938 00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:33,160 the world. I reckon I could probably move 939 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:34,680 there. 940 00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,400 And what happens is, yes, they could and 941 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:38,720 they're really value, particularly, let's 942 00:38:38,720 --> 00:38:40,920 say, people in machine learning, and so 943 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:43,280 they may be offered a role, a tech 944 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:45,440 company, where, let's say, in the US 945 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:48,319 they're paid a million dollars, or in the 946 00:38:48,319 --> 00:38:51,880 UK maybe 400,000 or $500,000. 947 00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:53,640 Unfortunately, salaries in the UK are 948 00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:55,920 quite a lot lower than the US. So 949 00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:59,119 basically they could be earning twice or 950 00:38:59,119 --> 00:39:01,359 three times as much as what they earn 951 00:39:01,359 --> 00:39:04,440 the university, and that is why a lot of 952 00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:08,240 universities have said: well, how about we 953 00:39:08,240 --> 00:39:10,960 give you a duel position? You can have 954 00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:13,280 both, and that is why, if you look at 955 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:16,599 almost all of the top tech 956 00:39:16,599 --> 00:39:19,359 companies, There is almost always the 957 00:39:19,359 --> 00:39:21,599 person who's like one of the top VPS, of 958 00:39:21,599 --> 00:39:23,800 sort of science or whatever. He's almost 959 00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:25,720 always also have an as an academic 960 00:39:25,720 --> 00:39:28,240 position. And I, you know, I'm obviously 961 00:39:28,240 --> 00:39:29,800 basing this only on some conversation, 962 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:31,880 but most of the time it's because the 963 00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:34,240 universities had to do that to keep them, 964 00:39:34,240 --> 00:39:35,560 because if not, they're going to go 965 00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:37,599 anyway. Um, it's also a little bit the 966 00:39:37,599 --> 00:39:39,240 other way around, where the tech company 967 00:39:39,240 --> 00:39:41,640 may want access to the academic's, you 968 00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:43,400 know, research group- and their students, 969 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:47,079 and so they want to do it. But so I'm 970 00:39:47,079 --> 00:39:50,520 rambling around. What's my conclusion to 971 00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:52,640 this? And these podcasts have already 972 00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:55,280 been too long, so I I'll I'll summarize 973 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:56,880 this discussion starting from the 974 00:39:56,880 --> 00:40:00,000 beginning: PhD or no PhD, do a PhD is 975 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,400 worth in the long run? How to get a 976 00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:06,960 professor long role? But be aware that, um, 977 00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:09,160 as I kind of said and didn't say, there 978 00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:11,160 is more than one Route. One route is the 979 00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:15,160 pure academic route, but there is routes 980 00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:16,920 where you jump in and out and you 981 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:18,640 particularly come back when you you know 982 00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:20,960 you're quite, you've made it more in 983 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:22,560 industry and you do see that in lot of 984 00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:24,440 universities where people have sort of 985 00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:27,560 come and gone a little bit. 986 00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:29,440 So bear in mind it's a long journey but 987 00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:30,839 it's worth it once you get right to the 988 00:40:30,839 --> 00:40:32,720 top. But you know, just have the 989 00:40:32,720 --> 00:40:35,880 conviction that to to go for it- Academia 990 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:39,560 or industry, difficult um- Academia- once 991 00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:40,880 you get to the end I think looks 992 00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:42,800 fantastic. But I do see people burn out 993 00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:45,240 and really struggle. So you know it's a 994 00:40:45,240 --> 00:40:47,720 tough one. Industry can be good. A lot 995 00:40:47,720 --> 00:40:51,280 more permanent um basis um with work if 996 00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:52,960 you things like Formula 1 can pay very 997 00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:56,599 well, but which is kind of a little bit 998 00:40:56,599 --> 00:41:00,079 the concluding for on this- be aware of 999 00:41:00,079 --> 00:41:01,839 the opportunity that's coming through 1000 00:41:01,839 --> 00:41:03,640 sort of tech companies, particularly in 1001 00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:06,680 this age of AI. I wish I'd known about 1002 00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:08,359 this. That's why I'm really doing this 1003 00:41:08,359 --> 00:41:10,160 episode, because I wish I'd known this 1004 00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:11,319 when I was an 1005 00:41:11,319 --> 00:41:14,319 undergraduate. I I I'm glad in some ways 1006 00:41:14,319 --> 00:41:16,119 I didn't, because I like the route that 1007 00:41:16,119 --> 00:41:17,040 I've 1008 00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:19,599 taken, but I wish I'd known because I 1009 00:41:19,599 --> 00:41:21,359 think maybe I would have been more 1010 00:41:21,359 --> 00:41:23,160 educated about the opportunities out 1011 00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:25,880 there. Okay, now I work for that company, 1012 00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:27,400 but I think what would it been like if 1013 00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:29,200 i' have done that. So I really wanted to 1014 00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:31,480 do this episode just to make people 1015 00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:34,119 aware I've- like I said, I could talk 1016 00:41:34,119 --> 00:41:35,880 about this for hours cuz it's it really 1017 00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:38,560 is. There's so many nuances and I've, you 1018 00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:40,319 know, probably made some things 1019 00:41:40,319 --> 00:41:43,200 generalized too greatly or or or not. But 1020 00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:45,119 I'm hoping you find this useful, 1021 00:41:45,119 --> 00:41:46,319 particularly if you're maybe a bit 1022 00:41:46,319 --> 00:41:48,280 younger and you don't really know what, 1023 00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:49,800 what sort of roles and positions are out 1024 00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:51,359 there. And please do let me know if you 1025 00:41:51,359 --> 00:41:53,280 found this useful, cuz I'm happy to 1026 00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:56,040 record more, more episodes like this. And 1027 00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:58,240 uh, yeah, I think the uh next few episodes 1028 00:41:58,240 --> 00:41:59,119 are going to be back to the normal 1029 00:41:59,119 --> 00:42:00,880 interviewing guest about interesting 1030 00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:02,800 things in science and engineering, but I 1031 00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:05,319 wanted to try this format, um, to see how 1032 00:42:05,319 --> 00:42:09,920 it goes. So so thanks for listening. 1033 00:42:10,110 --> 00:42:34,429 [Music].