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hi and welcome to the Neil Ashton podcast.

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In each episode,

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we explained some of the fascinating ways that science and engineering

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are changing the world around us.

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We talk to leading engineers from elite level sports like cycling and Formula One

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to some of the world's top academics.

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To understand how fluid dynamics, machine learning and supercomputing

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are bringing in a new era of discovery.

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We also hear some of their life stories, their career advice

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and lessons they've learned on the way that I hope will be helpful to you too.

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So sit back and enjoy this episode.

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Welcome back to the Neil Ashen podcast.

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So today's episode is all about cycling.

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Uh, I said in the intro to the podcast that there were gonna be certain themes.

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Uh, and cycling is definitely one of them.

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I hope I'm not the only person who

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has this sort of mixed interest of

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fluid dynamics,

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engineering, Formula One and cycling.

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I think, though it is more common, I think there's a

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an interesting overlap between those disciplines.

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There is

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obviously a huge focus in

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aerodynamics, which is one of the things that we'll we'll talk about today.

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Formula One and cycling

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have a lot of crossovers from a technology point of view.

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But I would also say, from a people point of view, a lot of the people that I know

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that work in

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elite level cycling people who are, you know,

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working on bike design or working with the teams,

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um, have come from from Formula One.

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And there are another, uh,

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a number of actual Formula One teams that have partnerships,

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uh, things like INEOS,

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of course.

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So

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it's It's a topic that I hope will be interesting, and again,

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it sort of complements each other.

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In a way,

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I'm speaking to Dimitris Katsanis

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today,

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who is one of these?

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A

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bit like Tony Purnell,

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I would say unspoken heroes of of the field.

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In fact, there's a link between, uh,

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Dimitris Katsanis and and and Tony and I,

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which is that we all worked on the British cycling project to design the

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track bike for the Tokyo Olympics in 2020.

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Now we don't a

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bit like with Tony, which is in Episode three.

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If you haven't listened to it, I, I suggest you go back.

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We we talk about far more than just cycling. In fact,

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we mainly discuss things outside of cycling.

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Um,

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but because of various NDAs agreements and things, uh,

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some of the stuff that we did for that actual Tokyo Olympics project

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can't actually be spoken about until after the next Olympics, which is coming up,

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uh, in in in Paris.

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But

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today, I.

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I really wanted to talk to him because Dimitris Katsanis is he's actually, um,

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was a professional cyclist.

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We don't really get to talk about that too much,

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but he he comes from someone who was actually a very good cyclist,

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and he's made his name known as one of the top designers of of Bikes.

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He has his own company, Metron,

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but he's a a sort of guy

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that really has a system level understanding,

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uh, and works, you know,

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with a number of of companies. Uh, but what we talk about today is his partnership

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with Pinarello,

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which is probably a bike brand that is synonymous with

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Team Sky. All those wins with, you know, Bradley Wiggins and Chris Froome.

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And now with INEOS,

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it's it's a it's a bike. It's a very premium bike.

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Anyone who's into bikes know that Pinarello is

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probably one of the most expensive bikes out there.

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And so anybody who has a Pinarello or

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aspires to have one or just has an interest.

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You're speaking to the guy who has been a central part

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of designing those bikes for for more than a decade now,

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um, someone who deeply understands it. So we cover

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we do. We try and start from the top with UCI regulations.

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What governs bike design

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and then really trying to get into this question of what's more important?

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Is it aerodynamics? Is it weight? Is it stiffness?

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I think he goes into some interesting discussions

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about you know how the rules are interpreted,

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where we should, where we should go with it.

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So it's really a deep dive conversation. It's, uh,

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it's a bit like with Tony, you know,

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it's it's more than an hour 40 so it's definitely a long form one.

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It may take a few goes to to get through it.

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But like with other episodes, I wanted to keep it in its entirety because I think

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to do justice to him and the topics that we're discussing it it's

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Yeah, I'm not a fan of

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trying to make, uh, you know, Clickbait or or sound bites?

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I wanted to leave the the the whole thing

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out there.

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I think we still have many topics that we could have gone in, you know, into more depth

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and, uh, interested to hear from you, whether you like this episode, whether you'd

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like us to go back in and And

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what around cycling would you be interested in hearing about?

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So this is today about, like I said, aerodynamics and stiffness,

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but there's lots of other topics that we could

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that we could dive into. So, yeah, I hope you find this interesting.

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Um,

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I'm told that I I'm I'm supposed to tell you to like and subscribe.

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Uh, I must confess I'm the worst at doing this.

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Normally, when someone says that to me, uh, it almost makes me not want to do it.

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But there are good reasons because, you know,

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all the algorithms of YouTube and Spotify are all based on basically people

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giving ratings and subscribing and stuff like that. So if you

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didn't find this particularly interesting, of course. No need to do it.

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But if you do like this podcast and you found it,

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useful it It does help others to find it.

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Um, if you like and subscribe. So, yeah, I'll I'll do the classic thing of saying it.

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I hope you'll do it too.

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So, yeah, sit back. And hopefully you enjoy this episode. Um,

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one small caveat.

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As I mentioned on previous ones, this was actually recorded quite a few months ago,

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right at the beginning of this sort of podcasting journey.

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And so I Now that I hear it,

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I'm a little bit disappointed that the audio quality

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isn't as good as I'd like it to be.

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So please bear that in mind for future episodes. Hopefully that will be

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rectified. But for this particular one, yeah, it's it's still not perfect.

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But hopefully the main point is the conversation rather, rather than the, uh,

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the audio quality.

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So, yeah, Please enjoy this discussion with Dimitris Katsanis.

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People watch the Tour de France. People watch, You know, the classics that are on now

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what regulates

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how the road bikes look.

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How could you explain to people the sort of UCI

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I regulation like from a road bike point of view?

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What? What's the limiting factor?

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So

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UCI stands for Union Cycliste Internationale, which is the

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the world's governing body for

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the sport of cycling.

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And it

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it covers everything from BMX and mountain biking to,

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uh, road bikes, track bikes. Pretty

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much anything has to do with this motorcycle.

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So

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there is a

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There's a quite a thick book of rules and regulations that they govern

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the the sport.

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A lot of that has to do with how you run the sport, meaning

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the start to finish the organisation and so on.

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And there is also quite a large, quite detailed technical,

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uh,

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side also,

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which defines, um how the bike, um, would look like.

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So it has, like minimums and maximums like minimum and maximum length of the bike,

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the size of the handlebars and, uh, the cross section of the tubes and so on.

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And, uh, as the years they go by, more and more detail is being added

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because in the past, when you were talking about a bicycle,

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you were talking about a bike with

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round steel tubes. Primarily,

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it was probably 50 years ago

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and then

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aluminium came in and things started changing, and then carbon fibre came in,

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and things they changed quite a lot.

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Uh, so as the time was going by, UCI. Was adding more detail on these kind of bikes.

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Um,

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there was a time in the early nineties, early to mid to early nineties

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that the regulations that were relaxed, but, um,

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the regulations around the shape of the frame,

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they were actually relaxed quite significantly.

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And we saw the bikes, like this famous Lotus bike and a few others

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that they had a frame that was no triangular

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and a few other innovations.

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And, uh, but since then, UCI, um, tried to put more, uh,

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control about what is happening because

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things that run away maybe a little bit too fast for what

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it was the understanding of the UCI at the time.

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So

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the governing body,

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uh, has to con

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to control the sport. You cannot really

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let let leave it completely free

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because, uh, you know the moment you have a,

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uh, no, the rider and the machine. Then what stops you from? I don't know.

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Start putting engines on and stuff like this,

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and then you're ending up with a motorbike

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and then you're ending up with a rocket or ending up.

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I know going, you know that that that's not a sport anymore.

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So every sport has to have regulations, Uh, the regulations in general,

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and now they do change a lot slower comparing to what they were.

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So these regulations is worth saying that these regulations that are primarily

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for the road bikes and for the track bikes.

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So there's a lot of detail on what you may call the road. What is a road racing bike is,

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and what a track racing bike is

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when you're going into other categories like, uh, mountain bike and BMX,

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there's a lot less regulation.

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That's why you also see a lot larger variety.

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Um, regulation. Of course it it can be seen as a good and a bad thing, in my opinion is

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you have to have a regulation,

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Uh, but you also have to be able to,

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uh, keep

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modifying the regulation as time is going by to allow for development.

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I don't think we're going to see bikes as they were

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in the late 18 hundreds, with the huge front wheel and the tiny

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rear wheel like the P

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Far

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things.

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Uh, because if at the time, they were saying, This is the bike,

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how we know it and we stick with that,

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then that's all we would know even today.

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So thank God for that. They haven't stuck to that.

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Uh then, as I said earlier on, by necessity,

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the technology was developing quite slowly

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till about, um,

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sometime around the eighties or so,

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and then things start moving

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on in aerodynamics.

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They were brought in, and then you had, like, uh

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uh, some shapes. And so on the bike start changing

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and disc wheels, they they start appearing and aerodynamic helmets and all that.

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And that was primarily the outcome of

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national teams and professional level cyclists,

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uh, national teams at the time,

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primarily the likes of the

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East Germans and, uh, the ex

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Soviet Union and

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block,

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uh, they started it, probably in the late seventies.

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Then in the early eighties,

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the Americans they start taking over with the Los Angeles Olympics,

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and they had all these

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bikes with different wheel diameters and aerodynamic helmets and so on.

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And then more innovation, uh, start coming in.

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Um, in the early eighties was also the disc wheels,

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and when they came in uh, Francesco Moser

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was the first one

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who actually used the Hour Record that he did.

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Can't remember the exact year. I think it was 8382. Something like that.

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And, uh,

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then, uh, this started going, uh,

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more for a for a time that you I tried to restrict it.

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Uh, but then it was in ’91, if I remember correctly, that the UCI opened up the rules,

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they removed the requirements for the triangular frame.

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That's when Lotus,

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which, in fact,

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uh,

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it wasn't Lotus, uh, that actually designed the bike.

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Uh, but Lotus actually manufactured it and actually did the improvements.

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Uh, so, um,

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the bike that Chris Boardman rode in 92 it was

252
00:13:07,210 --> 00:13:09,320
very different compared to the previous bikes.

253
00:13:09,330 --> 00:13:11,440
But it was not the only the only bike that was very different.

254
00:13:11,450 --> 00:13:15,789
The the Germans, they had, like, a a version of a triangular FRA frame,

255
00:13:16,489 --> 00:13:18,830
Uh, which it was, like, an unusual shape.

256
00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:20,150
And then after that,

257
00:13:20,159 --> 00:13:22,869
everybody started coming up with their weird and wonderful things.

258
00:13:23,530 --> 00:13:25,500
And then I think it was, um,

259
00:13:26,669 --> 00:13:30,659
97 or 98 if I remember correctly UCI. They said

260
00:13:31,419 --> 00:13:32,590
we have to stop this.

261
00:13:32,599 --> 00:13:36,489
And, uh, from the first of January 2000, the bikes,

262
00:13:36,500 --> 00:13:40,750
they still have to go back to the original two triangles,

263
00:13:41,460 --> 00:13:43,400
minimums and maximums and so on.

264
00:13:44,849 --> 00:13:48,590
There was a bit of a quiet period, but then

265
00:13:48,820 --> 00:13:51,989
the engineers that were working with the companies, they

266
00:13:52,890 --> 00:13:55,830
start realising they start pushing the envelope a

267
00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:57,489
bit and pushing it a little bit more,

268
00:13:57,500 --> 00:13:58,750
pushing it a little bit more.

269
00:13:59,059 --> 00:14:04,989
And at the time you may say UCI. I got a little bit, um

270
00:14:06,059 --> 00:14:06,900
uh, sleeping,

271
00:14:06,909 --> 00:14:12,919
if I can say because they didn't really have a technical expert to be able to

272
00:14:13,219 --> 00:14:16,599
measure all these things and enforce the regulations.

273
00:14:18,150 --> 00:14:20,049
So then, uh,

274
00:14:20,210 --> 00:14:21,469
I think it was, uh,

275
00:14:21,479 --> 00:14:25,890
after the 2008 Olympics that they usually they put a lot more detail

276
00:14:26,330 --> 00:14:30,090
and, uh, the regulations, they became more or less what we know today.

277
00:14:30,099 --> 00:14:32,090
A lot of things change. Also since

278
00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:33,340
2010,

279
00:14:33,690 --> 00:14:39,960
uh, but, uh, the basic, um, idea of all these measurements and so on.

280
00:14:39,969 --> 00:14:42,210
Although it started in 97

281
00:14:43,119 --> 00:14:44,479
98 I think it was.

282
00:14:44,700 --> 00:14:46,700
It started in 98. Um,

283
00:14:47,489 --> 00:14:48,669
then, uh, it

284
00:14:49,340 --> 00:14:52,359
pretty much like, uh developed to what we know today,

285
00:14:52,770 --> 00:14:53,520
um,

286
00:14:54,989 --> 00:15:00,219
somewhere between 4010 and then today there is a lot of regulation,

287
00:15:00,489 --> 00:15:04,770
and today the UCI is a lot more technically capable, if I can say

288
00:15:05,700 --> 00:15:07,030
so, if you

289
00:15:07,270 --> 00:15:11,150
come up with a design, you have to register that design, which

290
00:15:11,330 --> 00:15:11,659
I

291
00:15:12,820 --> 00:15:18,280
you have to give them a 3D, uh, file that represents the entire frame.

292
00:15:19,330 --> 00:15:23,570
And, uh, they have a laser scanner that they can come to the race and

293
00:15:24,150 --> 00:15:25,309
they can scan it

294
00:15:25,450 --> 00:15:28,669
and compare it to what you told them it will be.

295
00:15:29,729 --> 00:15:30,630
So,

296
00:15:30,919 --> 00:15:31,710
uh,

297
00:15:32,140 --> 00:15:35,020
that, uh, laser scanning technology is very accurate.

298
00:15:35,030 --> 00:15:39,229
We talk about two microns, no less than thickness of a piece of paper.

299
00:15:39,739 --> 00:15:40,549
And, uh,

300
00:15:41,559 --> 00:15:45,190
the tolerance that they have with this is like plus or minus a millimetre.

301
00:15:45,630 --> 00:15:49,780
So you don't really have much room to play. You know, you can easily just

302
00:15:49,900 --> 00:15:52,219
go a little bit aggressive with your paint

303
00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:54,150
and paint a little bit too thick,

304
00:15:54,609 --> 00:15:57,289
and you can start coming out of the the tolerances.

305
00:15:57,429 --> 00:15:57,590
And it's

306
00:15:57,750 --> 00:15:58,179
not for road

307
00:15:58,289 --> 00:15:59,729
bikes as well. So you mean

308
00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:00,309
Yeah.

309
00:16:00,869 --> 00:16:01,150
Yeah,

310
00:16:01,919 --> 00:16:02,239
yeah.

311
00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:05,409
Although the regulation is supposed to be for everything in

312
00:16:05,659 --> 00:16:10,700
effect right now is specifically talking about road bikes

313
00:16:11,090 --> 00:16:14,330
and, uh, track bikes, road time trial,

314
00:16:14,340 --> 00:16:17,219
and must start so the likes and museum to the front

315
00:16:17,659 --> 00:16:20,619
and the same thing for the track. So you have the

316
00:16:20,739 --> 00:16:24,099
the bikes and racing say individual pursuit and so on.

317
00:16:25,229 --> 00:16:27,859
And also the kind of bikes that you're racing like a

318
00:16:28,169 --> 00:16:28,190
no

319
00:16:28,419 --> 00:16:30,869
points race and sprint and stuff like that.

320
00:16:30,900 --> 00:16:33,929
All these are under these very strict regulations

321
00:16:34,460 --> 00:16:38,489
and probably you and I, we are responsible for that

322
00:16:40,159 --> 00:16:41,210
party at least.

323
00:16:42,780 --> 00:16:45,599
Yeah, which we'll we'll definitely get into. Um,

324
00:16:46,030 --> 00:16:48,809
so the other key thing if I'm not mistaken,

325
00:16:49,289 --> 00:16:50,090
is

326
00:16:50,969 --> 00:16:52,429
any bike

327
00:16:52,719 --> 00:16:54,030
that is used

328
00:16:54,650 --> 00:16:57,280
at a UCI event. Let's say

329
00:16:58,020 --> 00:17:00,950
at, um, on loop last week or in,

330
00:17:01,169 --> 00:17:02,429
you have to be able to buy it.

331
00:17:02,570 --> 00:17:03,210
Is that right?

332
00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:05,868
Uh, public has to be able to buy that bike.

333
00:17:06,630 --> 00:17:07,848
Yes. Yes. So

334
00:17:08,368 --> 00:17:10,930
the regulation was always there,

335
00:17:12,449 --> 00:17:14,739
at least as far as I remember since the nineties,

336
00:17:14,750 --> 00:17:17,189
or even before there was a line in there that

337
00:17:17,199 --> 00:17:20,050
was saying that the bike should be commercially available,

338
00:17:22,358 --> 00:17:23,459
and, uh,

339
00:17:24,229 --> 00:17:29,119
the although these things they were supposed to be commercially available.

340
00:17:29,598 --> 00:17:29,609
Uh,

341
00:17:29,619 --> 00:17:32,448
there are plenty of examples out there

342
00:17:32,458 --> 00:17:35,298
that they were actually not commercially available.

343
00:17:35,848 --> 00:17:41,729
Uh, there were There were prices. Uh, you could, in theory ask, uh but,

344
00:17:42,379 --> 00:17:45,389
uh, I'm not I'm not aware of anybody getting forsake

345
00:17:46,109 --> 00:17:48,739
the bike the Americans they had in, uh,

346
00:17:49,088 --> 00:17:52,418
1984 in Los Angeles or in 96 in Atlanta

347
00:17:52,890 --> 00:17:56,530
or the, um, the FES, the Germans. They had,

348
00:17:57,030 --> 00:18:01,709
uh, they still have, uh, or all sorts of other special projects that people do,

349
00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:03,859
including the the British team.

350
00:18:03,869 --> 00:18:10,619
Although nowadays it specifically stipulates that there is a specific timescale

351
00:18:10,959 --> 00:18:13,219
that the bike has to go to the market.

352
00:18:14,030 --> 00:18:19,410
And, uh, you do see today people, they are buying those bikes. I know

353
00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:24,010
there are at least a small number of the bikes that, uh,

354
00:18:24,670 --> 00:18:29,790
we did for the Tokyo Olympics, and I saw private riders knowing private,

355
00:18:29,819 --> 00:18:31,609
private individuals racing them

356
00:18:31,939 --> 00:18:34,969
on, I don't know, masters categories and stuff like that.

357
00:18:35,930 --> 00:18:38,430
And it is the bike that it was the

358
00:18:38,780 --> 00:18:40,089
2020

359
00:18:40,739 --> 00:18:42,640
Olympic Games bike, the British C

360
00:18:42,979 --> 00:18:43,150
card.

361
00:18:43,660 --> 00:18:50,140
Having said all that, I'm not aware of any of the FES, uh, bikes. Anybody else racing?

362
00:18:50,150 --> 00:18:52,630
Maybe they do. But II, I just don't know.

363
00:18:53,140 --> 00:18:54,430
But yes, you're right about it.

364
00:18:54,439 --> 00:18:59,270
The bike has to be commercially available, and that is policed a lot more nowadays.

365
00:19:00,420 --> 00:19:03,829
So if you designing. So I guess one of the things that

366
00:19:03,939 --> 00:19:05,020
you, um

367
00:19:06,130 --> 00:19:06,949
your

368
00:19:07,189 --> 00:19:10,630
well, people may not know, but I think it has been one of the big things.

369
00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:12,069
Is your work with Pinarello? So

370
00:19:13,140 --> 00:19:14,069
when did that?

371
00:19:14,250 --> 00:19:16,290
When did that start? That

372
00:19:17,089 --> 00:19:18,969
you mean my collaboration with Pinarello?

373
00:19:20,810 --> 00:19:21,189
Uh,

374
00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:27,540
depending on how far back you want to go. But properly,

375
00:19:28,500 --> 00:19:31,000
properly, it started

376
00:19:31,380 --> 00:19:32,949
as in, Um

377
00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:35,780
uh, hold on a minute. Let me think a little bit.

378
00:19:36,349 --> 00:19:39,739
I did the first full bike for Pinarello,

379
00:19:40,310 --> 00:19:43,530
and it was released in 2013, which—it was the Pinarello

380
00:19:43,750 --> 00:19:43,869
Bolide,

381
00:19:44,140 --> 00:19:46,219
the the the time trial bike.

382
00:19:47,189 --> 00:19:50,849
But, uh uh, Bradley Wiggins rode that year.

383
00:19:51,290 --> 00:19:54,209
And, um, later on, Chris Froome and so on.

384
00:19:55,099 --> 00:19:59,719
Uh, before that, uh, there were some minor things that I've done for Pinarello

385
00:19:59,839 --> 00:20:03,239
but it was very much like an on-off, uh, relationship before that.

386
00:20:04,500 --> 00:20:06,140
But since 2013,

387
00:20:06,420 --> 00:20:08,750
uh, like, um, I collaborate with

388
00:20:09,150 --> 00:20:11,400
Fausto in countless projects.

389
00:20:11,839 --> 00:20:14,800
Uh, there are always projects in the pipeline.

390
00:20:14,810 --> 00:20:17,160
Uh, please don't ask me to tell you the future projects,

391
00:20:18,550 --> 00:20:18,569
I.

392
00:20:18,780 --> 00:20:21,910
I can I can talk about the old ones because, you know,

393
00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:24,199
they're in the public domain and you can find those,

394
00:20:24,689 --> 00:20:26,170
uh, and, uh,

395
00:20:26,479 --> 00:20:27,439
like, uh

396
00:20:27,699 --> 00:20:27,910
for

397
00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:31,660
Pinarello. Um, did the time-trial bikes like the Bolide

398
00:20:31,959 --> 00:20:32,770
series

399
00:20:33,489 --> 00:20:35,670
and, uh, did also the Dogma

400
00:20:35,839 --> 00:20:36,949
F series

401
00:20:37,390 --> 00:20:40,430
like, uh, F8, F10, F12, Dogma

402
00:20:40,569 --> 00:20:41,430
F and all that.

403
00:20:42,140 --> 00:20:43,079
So

404
00:20:43,569 --> 00:20:44,469
And they may.

405
00:20:44,479 --> 00:20:50,920
They got quite a lot of, um, significant improvements that we had on, uh, on those.

406
00:20:51,959 --> 00:20:52,859
Um,

407
00:20:53,479 --> 00:20:55,140
Do you want me to go through those?

408
00:20:55,380 --> 00:20:57,400
I was more interested to know.

409
00:20:58,040 --> 00:20:58,640
Um,

410
00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:00,239
so I think

411
00:21:00,530 --> 00:21:02,859
people think like aerodynamics.

412
00:21:03,140 --> 00:21:03,489
Yeah,

413
00:21:03,979 --> 00:21:05,540
People think about weight.

414
00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:05,969
Yeah,

415
00:21:06,599 --> 00:21:07,770
And stiffness.

416
00:21:08,239 --> 00:21:11,160
How do you for a modern day bike

417
00:21:11,290 --> 00:21:12,459
that I've got one?

418
00:21:12,750 --> 00:21:13,540
Well, I haven't got Pinarello

419
00:21:13,900 --> 00:21:14,739
here. It's another brand.

420
00:21:15,660 --> 00:21:17,040
It's dirty. So I'm not gonna

421
00:21:18,300 --> 00:21:18,550
um

422
00:21:19,349 --> 00:21:21,780
what what is the actual influence of each?

423
00:21:24,180 --> 00:21:28,069
Yeah, that That's a very good question. Which, actually that summarises

424
00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:31,439
pretty much my collaboration with Pinarello.

425
00:21:31,900 --> 00:21:32,550
Like, uh,

426
00:21:34,079 --> 00:21:37,150
I, uh, I delivered the, the Bolide,

427
00:21:37,790 --> 00:21:38,729
uh, the first Bolide,

428
00:21:38,959 --> 00:21:39,400
to Pinarello

429
00:21:40,430 --> 00:21:42,739
and the early 2013

430
00:21:43,660 --> 00:21:49,760
And then, uh, not long after that, started working on what later became the Dogma

431
00:21:50,010 --> 00:21:50,760
F8.

432
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:55,969
And I remember we had this meeting at Pinarello

433
00:21:56,319 --> 00:21:58,380
and we were sitting over there. We were planning,

434
00:21:59,689 --> 00:22:05,439
uh, how to try and do it. And at the time, it was very common that, uh,

435
00:22:06,069 --> 00:22:08,989
all major brands, uh, like, Cervélo,

436
00:22:09,479 --> 00:22:12,920
Trek, Specialized—pretty much anybody who was anybody—

437
00:22:13,270 --> 00:22:14,790
uh, had two

438
00:22:15,140 --> 00:22:15,689
top

439
00:22:15,859 --> 00:22:18,599
level bikes, had a a lightweight bike,

440
00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:20,349
an aerodynamic bike.

441
00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:22,329
And, uh, I

442
00:22:22,439 --> 00:22:24,229
remember that, uh, I had

443
00:22:24,459 --> 00:22:26,380
when we were discussing all this, I had to,

444
00:22:26,829 --> 00:22:27,660
um,

445
00:22:27,930 --> 00:22:29,780
stand up and tell, uh

446
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:31,060
uh, the Pinarello

447
00:22:31,270 --> 00:22:34,219
guys and also the Team Sky guys as they

448
00:22:34,349 --> 00:22:35,099
was at the time.

449
00:22:35,890 --> 00:22:39,569
But in my opinion, it should be one bike

450
00:22:39,839 --> 00:22:40,829
that does it all,

451
00:22:41,589 --> 00:22:46,739
Uh, because you cannot really have, uh, a different bike

452
00:22:46,979 --> 00:22:48,130
for

453
00:22:48,420 --> 00:22:49,930
you're racing a race.

454
00:22:49,939 --> 00:22:54,329
Most of the races they have, uh, Mountain, Beach, Beach and Flat Beach.

455
00:22:55,290 --> 00:22:59,790
Quite a few times the mountain stages. They are quite distinct.

456
00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:06,459
But nowadays they start going more and more a blend of between flat and mountains.

457
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:09,150
So, uh,

458
00:23:09,380 --> 00:23:10,869
you cannot really have

459
00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:16,060
some people they doing it, but, uh, thank God, Not much. They changing bike

460
00:23:16,439 --> 00:23:19,319
on, uh, like, uh, on the foot of a mountain.

461
00:23:19,900 --> 00:23:22,280
They primarily do that on time trials. And so

462
00:23:22,699 --> 00:23:24,550
but nobody is doing it. Thank God for that.

463
00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:28,150
Nobody is doing it on the must start when you have 100 naked riders,

464
00:23:28,550 --> 00:23:30,790
uh, starting, you know, trying to change bikes.

465
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:32,069
So that would be an absolute nightmare.

466
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:38,969
So I said it has to be a good balance between strength, stiffness,

467
00:23:39,060 --> 00:23:40,959
aerodynamics and lightweight.

468
00:23:41,839 --> 00:23:46,550
So there will be, of course, a bit of a weight penalty

469
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:50,270
if you try to do a bike. But it is,

470
00:23:50,599 --> 00:23:51,270
um,

471
00:23:52,270 --> 00:23:54,630
have reasonable aerodynamics

472
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:58,390
comparing to an all out lightweight bike.

473
00:23:59,140 --> 00:23:59,920
Uh,

474
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,459
but actually, the difference is not much.

475
00:24:02,469 --> 00:24:05,260
The difference is somewhere in the region of about

476
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:07,680
100 to 100 and 50 grammes.

477
00:24:07,839 --> 00:24:11,819
Some people, they may argue. Oh, you can do it light. And you can do 600 gramme frame.

478
00:24:11,829 --> 00:24:12,790
But we talk about

479
00:24:13,150 --> 00:24:16,280
frames that they can last, and they're not gonna just,

480
00:24:16,459 --> 00:24:16,469
uh,

481
00:24:17,180 --> 00:24:20,859
start taking damage. The moment I know something minor happens.

482
00:24:21,699 --> 00:24:28,280
So the idea was always you need a bike that it will take you from a to B

483
00:24:29,459 --> 00:24:30,900
multiple times,

484
00:24:31,579 --> 00:24:33,520
so it has to be durable. Also,

485
00:24:33,770 --> 00:24:35,599
it has to be relatively

486
00:24:36,729 --> 00:24:41,060
relatively speaking, simple to work. Also, if there is a damage

487
00:24:41,250 --> 00:24:44,300
or if there is a you need to change the wheel or something like this,

488
00:24:44,310 --> 00:24:45,550
it is relatively speaking, easy.

489
00:24:46,270 --> 00:24:50,640
And it also has to be aerodynamic enough that it doesn't really hold you back.

490
00:24:50,650 --> 00:24:52,010
Uh, anything significant

491
00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:56,219
and also lightweight enough.

492
00:24:56,979 --> 00:25:02,890
So the the Dogma F8 It was the first one that, uh, I did for Pinarello

493
00:25:03,170 --> 00:25:06,910
that was actually taking all this philosophy and putting it on to one bike.

494
00:25:08,050 --> 00:25:13,430
And, uh, I'm quite proud to say that pretty much today not far from every major brand,

495
00:25:13,439 --> 00:25:14,709
is going down this route

496
00:25:15,530 --> 00:25:16,469
because

497
00:25:16,609 --> 00:25:21,290
they all came up to more or less the same conclusion that we did at the time that the

498
00:25:22,319 --> 00:25:26,329
you'd make a bike actually pretty good for aerodynamics.

499
00:25:27,300 --> 00:25:28,040
Uh,

500
00:25:28,530 --> 00:25:28,979
and, uh,

501
00:25:28,989 --> 00:25:34,439
the weight penalties as I said something in the region of about 100 250 grammes

502
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:40,560
and, uh, with the minimum weight of UCI, I

503
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:42,760
actually that works very well.

504
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:46,400
If you didn't have this minimum weight limit,

505
00:25:46,410 --> 00:25:49,060
then you would probably have everybody going for light weight

506
00:25:49,369 --> 00:25:52,140
because in cycling, everybody is obsessed with the weight

507
00:25:52,260 --> 00:25:53,760
because you can measure it very easily.

508
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,599
But aerodynamics is something you cannot measure very easily.

509
00:25:57,989 --> 00:26:01,250
You have to have wind tunnel testing or

510
00:26:01,459 --> 00:26:05,449
nowadays they have these little pods they can measure these speeds.

511
00:26:05,459 --> 00:26:07,189
But again, you really need to know what you're doing.

512
00:26:07,780 --> 00:26:11,609
You cannot just put on your bike and go out right and find out where it is.

513
00:26:12,260 --> 00:26:15,880
Uh, and all these measurements as we know they do have, um,

514
00:26:16,069 --> 00:26:17,959
quite a lot of tolerances.

515
00:26:18,130 --> 00:26:20,000
When you start going into the,

516
00:26:20,319 --> 00:26:24,920
I don't know, 1% difference or below things start going a little bit unstable.

517
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:26,979
So

518
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:30,060
to give you an idea the

519
00:26:32,430 --> 00:26:35,760
the F8, the first Dogma that I did for Pinarello

520
00:26:37,219 --> 00:26:39,540
Uh, we did quite a lot of development, uh,

521
00:26:39,550 --> 00:26:42,640
about the different sizes and shapes of the tubes,

522
00:26:42,910 --> 00:26:46,560
both for the frame of the fork location of the water bottles. And

523
00:26:46,849 --> 00:26:48,560
also, how do you

524
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:52,839
partially integrate, uh, parts onto the bike?

525
00:26:52,900 --> 00:26:56,369
So in effect, Although at the time that this breaks there,

526
00:26:56,380 --> 00:26:58,199
they were not what we know today.

527
00:26:58,209 --> 00:27:00,209
They were just the rim brakes in the standard

528
00:27:00,329 --> 00:27:00,680
ones

529
00:27:01,369 --> 00:27:03,270
uh, the bike was designed

530
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:04,859
that you have,

531
00:27:04,979 --> 00:27:06,359
uh, rim brakes on,

532
00:27:07,390 --> 00:27:10,859
but specifically that you have rim brakes on. If you don't design it,

533
00:27:11,199 --> 00:27:13,439
you design a bike and you put the rim brake on.

534
00:27:13,650 --> 00:27:15,680
But, you know, this is the rim brake.

535
00:27:15,689 --> 00:27:18,339
How can you design the rest of the bike that

536
00:27:18,349 --> 00:27:21,319
you do not present to the airflow to different bits?

537
00:27:21,329 --> 00:27:22,099
You don't have the the

538
00:27:22,219 --> 00:27:25,500
brake over here, the fork over there. But you put one behind the other

539
00:27:26,750 --> 00:27:28,859
very simple things, actually, to be fair.

540
00:27:29,390 --> 00:27:32,699
But, uh, it seems to me that before that time, nobody thought of it.

541
00:27:33,500 --> 00:27:34,479
So

542
00:27:34,599 --> 00:27:38,000
the outcome of that one, you may say, OK, what was the outcome?

543
00:27:38,339 --> 00:27:40,920
So the outcome of all that and this is not

544
00:27:40,930 --> 00:27:43,439
marketing because this is like old news you talking about?

545
00:27:43,449 --> 00:27:45,660
The pipeline was on the market

546
00:27:45,839 --> 00:27:47,280
over 10 years ago by now.

547
00:27:48,199 --> 00:27:55,130
Uh, so the outcome of that one, that bike, uh, the previous, uh, frame was over a kilo.

548
00:27:55,780 --> 00:27:58,619
I don't remember the exact numbers. I think it was something like

549
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:00,439
the range of 1 kg. 100.

550
00:28:01,589 --> 00:28:05,939
Uh, the F8 was around 850 grammes the frame,

551
00:28:06,650 --> 00:28:09,060
so there was a significant difference in the rate

552
00:28:10,469 --> 00:28:15,060
the stiffness went up because we did a lot of FEA

553
00:28:15,069 --> 00:28:19,339
on the optimum size and shape of individual tubes:

554
00:28:19,869 --> 00:28:20,329
Uh,

555
00:28:20,589 --> 00:28:23,290
down tube, chainstays, seat tube and all that stuff,

556
00:28:23,609 --> 00:28:28,239
uh, of what is the optimum size and shape and location of that tube,

557
00:28:29,589 --> 00:28:34,569
which gave us a lot of you may call it free stiffness. If I could say

558
00:28:35,069 --> 00:28:38,290
which also is translated on the reduction of weight

559
00:28:39,229 --> 00:28:42,449
and, uh, also in terms of aerodynamics

560
00:28:42,750 --> 00:28:45,170
on frame and fork level,

561
00:28:46,119 --> 00:28:47,319
at least on CFD,

562
00:28:47,510 --> 00:28:51,040
which is the simulation, uh, on the

563
00:28:51,550 --> 00:28:53,400
on aerodynamics, um,

564
00:28:53,660 --> 00:28:55,780
on CFD frame and four was

565
00:28:56,180 --> 00:28:58,239
47%

566
00:28:58,569 --> 00:29:01,160
lower drag than the previous version,

567
00:29:01,989 --> 00:29:03,430
Which you may say,

568
00:29:04,189 --> 00:29:05,689
that sounds like a very big number.

569
00:29:06,729 --> 00:29:08,290
And then I think it was

570
00:29:09,420 --> 00:29:12,510
it was on the bike level, something that is,

571
00:29:12,969 --> 00:29:17,160
I may be slightly wrong on these numbers, but you can check it. There is a white paper

572
00:29:17,369 --> 00:29:17,459
Pinarello

573
00:29:17,810 --> 00:29:18,619
they had about the dog

574
00:29:18,849 --> 00:29:20,109
by fate. And I think it's still,

575
00:29:20,979 --> 00:29:21,329
uh, uh,

576
00:29:21,729 --> 00:29:23,939
available somewhere if you If you dig enough,

577
00:29:24,689 --> 00:29:28,349
uh, I think on bike level it was something in the region of about

578
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:32,760
17 or 18% difference if I remember correctly

579
00:29:33,790 --> 00:29:36,780
and on on bike and rider level.

580
00:29:36,790 --> 00:29:40,989
Remember, this is only changing frame and fork, bike and rider level.

581
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,969
It was something in the region of about

582
00:29:44,550 --> 00:29:47,209
4%. 4 or 4.5% better.

583
00:29:48,420 --> 00:29:51,699
And this is you. You change this frame and four only.

584
00:29:51,839 --> 00:29:54,939
So you hop from this bike to that bike. The same wheels,

585
00:29:55,170 --> 00:29:58,280
same handlebars, Same. I don't know everything else.

586
00:29:58,849 --> 00:30:04,040
And, uh, all of a sudden you're finding, um, about 4.5% better.

587
00:30:05,430 --> 00:30:10,810
Which this is on CFD, you may say, Yeah. How mu How much do we want to believe? CFD.

588
00:30:11,369 --> 00:30:15,329
So we actually did that. After that, we did some wind tunnel testing,

589
00:30:16,319 --> 00:30:19,520
and, uh, one important thing over here to, uh,

590
00:30:19,530 --> 00:30:22,349
to point out before I go into more detail is

591
00:30:22,780 --> 00:30:24,579
that both the CFD and the wind and the

592
00:30:24,729 --> 00:30:26,540
testing was trying to replicate

593
00:30:26,869 --> 00:30:27,560
the

594
00:30:27,939 --> 00:30:32,260
road conditions that the air doesn't only come straight on,

595
00:30:32,500 --> 00:30:35,000
but it comes from all sorts of different angles.

596
00:30:35,109 --> 00:30:36,780
So we worked out

597
00:30:37,569 --> 00:30:38,219
a

598
00:30:39,010 --> 00:30:42,829
a probability of encountering different wind, uh,

599
00:30:42,839 --> 00:30:44,640
angles and different wind conditions.

600
00:30:44,869 --> 00:30:47,829
So we had the formula that we were applying on all those

601
00:30:47,839 --> 00:30:52,989
that was giving higher or lower weight to its different wind direction.

602
00:30:53,719 --> 00:30:55,819
So we've done this also on the wind tunnel.

603
00:30:55,829 --> 00:31:00,030
And remember, on the CFD, on average, it was giving something like about 4.5%

604
00:31:00,719 --> 00:31:05,699
Sorry, the CFD was giving 4.5%; the wind tunnel

605
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:08,750
Uh was giving us around 6% but

606
00:31:09,199 --> 00:31:10,739
And this is frame and fork only.

607
00:31:11,380 --> 00:31:13,760
Same wheel, same handlebar, same everything else.

608
00:31:14,449 --> 00:31:17,569
So, in effect, you're hopping from this bike to this bike,

609
00:31:17,579 --> 00:31:19,199
which is the only difference is frame and four.

610
00:31:19,650 --> 00:31:22,560
And, uh, you need, uh, 6%

611
00:31:22,869 --> 00:31:24,920
less power to push you through the air,

612
00:31:26,020 --> 00:31:26,390
which,

613
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:28,540
if you are the rolling resistance and all that

614
00:31:28,550 --> 00:31:32,500
stuff probably the overall potential improvement it was maybe,

615
00:31:32,510 --> 00:31:34,119
let's call it four or 5%

616
00:31:35,439 --> 00:31:37,599
but four or 5% of that.

617
00:31:37,609 --> 00:31:41,880
All of a sudden, it's almost like if you're producing, say, four or 5% more power

618
00:31:42,310 --> 00:31:44,079
when you are already on high level.

619
00:31:45,170 --> 00:31:47,550
To find another 5% of power,

620
00:31:47,949 --> 00:31:51,630
you can be training the rest of your life and not find this 5% of power,

621
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:55,959
and you could do it simply by just getting off this bike and getting onto this bike.

622
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:58,550
And this was before

623
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:03,709
we, uh, start looking into things like handlebars and so on.

624
00:32:03,819 --> 00:32:05,020
Since that time,

625
00:32:05,319 --> 00:32:09,989
um, we also found handlebars and so on. They make, like, a large contribution.

626
00:32:11,150 --> 00:32:17,079
Uh, that is why, uh, from about 2015 onwards, you still have.

627
00:32:17,089 --> 00:32:18,859
You have pretty much every top

628
00:32:18,969 --> 00:32:19,739
level bike, has

629
00:32:20,140 --> 00:32:23,680
integrated, integrated handlebars with aero cross-sections and so on.

630
00:32:24,619 --> 00:32:29,439
Now you may ask the question of, uh, W. How far can you push?

631
00:32:30,219 --> 00:32:33,339
How far can you push that aerodynamics

632
00:32:33,449 --> 00:32:34,890
within the regulations?

633
00:32:36,859 --> 00:32:38,170
Probably

634
00:32:39,069 --> 00:32:42,640
two, three or four years later after that. So we'd done the F8.

635
00:32:42,650 --> 00:32:44,839
Then a couple of years later, we'd done the F10,

636
00:32:45,589 --> 00:32:47,930
and sometime around that time,

637
00:32:47,939 --> 00:32:50,810
we were looking of where is the next potential improvement?

638
00:32:52,300 --> 00:32:56,609
And we did a full aero bike with whatever we could do at the time.

639
00:32:56,619 --> 00:32:58,310
Within the regulations of the time

640
00:33:00,089 --> 00:33:03,790
and the difference on what you may call a full

641
00:33:03,939 --> 00:33:05,630
aero road bike

642
00:33:06,170 --> 00:33:08,109
to whatever it was the

643
00:33:09,339 --> 00:33:11,709
whatever was the current Dogma at the time.

644
00:33:13,130 --> 00:33:16,869
The difference on bike and rider level

645
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:21,390
was something in the 0.0 something percent.

646
00:33:21,939 --> 00:33:26,099
So we pretty much decided it's not worth trying to do

647
00:33:26,109 --> 00:33:28,780
a more a frame for as it was at the time,

648
00:33:28,790 --> 00:33:30,250
be careful as it was at the time,

649
00:33:30,310 --> 00:33:32,729
because the regulations they changed since that time

650
00:33:32,969 --> 00:33:35,229
and now you can do a little bit more.

651
00:33:36,239 --> 00:33:36,989
So

652
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:39,939
we realised at the time that

653
00:33:40,849 --> 00:33:43,910
all these very slim, very aero tubes and so on.

654
00:33:44,310 --> 00:33:46,270
Actually, they were not really giving you

655
00:33:46,589 --> 00:33:48,189
any kind of significant improvement.

656
00:33:49,589 --> 00:33:52,250
That was the time that, uh, we realised that, uh,

657
00:33:52,260 --> 00:33:54,160
this is what they call the truncated I of

658
00:33:54,369 --> 00:33:54,930
oil tubes.

659
00:33:55,719 --> 00:33:58,449
They actually give a better

660
00:33:58,579 --> 00:34:00,130
overall performance,

661
00:34:00,270 --> 00:34:02,510
especially when the wind comes from the side

662
00:34:03,219 --> 00:34:06,239
because they create significantly more lift.

663
00:34:06,599 --> 00:34:10,429
Therefore, some of this lift is acting like pulling you forward.

664
00:34:10,850 --> 00:34:11,629
Therefore,

665
00:34:11,909 --> 00:34:13,810
uh, it was dropping the overall drought,

666
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:15,399
whereas

667
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:17,188
the bikes with a very slim,

668
00:34:17,290 --> 00:34:19,780
pointy trailing edge

669
00:34:20,020 --> 00:34:20,820
uh, tubes,

670
00:34:21,500 --> 00:34:22,510
uh, they got sty

671
00:34:23,129 --> 00:34:23,820
quite deadly.

672
00:34:25,050 --> 00:34:25,969
So anyway,

673
00:34:26,629 --> 00:34:28,639
so your sensitivity, basically,

674
00:34:29,010 --> 00:34:32,540
you're saying that because I'm just looking at my bike now, and it's true

675
00:34:32,860 --> 00:34:33,360
that

676
00:34:33,790 --> 00:34:34,120
the a

677
00:34:34,530 --> 00:34:39,580
section on it it is not the classic sort of teardrop going into a finite edge.

678
00:34:39,590 --> 00:34:41,770
But it's actually got quite a thick

679
00:34:42,879 --> 00:34:45,739
edge, which intuitively you think is less aerodynamic.

680
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:48,879
But I guess your point is more when the flow is coming in

681
00:34:49,310 --> 00:34:51,040
from the right or the left. It's

682
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:56,770
Yeah. Not only that, not only that, but also on a road bike. You have other things.

683
00:34:56,780 --> 00:35:01,870
You have, uh, brakes. Uh, you have, uh, water bottles and stuff like this.

684
00:35:02,389 --> 00:35:03,179
So

685
00:35:03,510 --> 00:35:04,580
looking back,

686
00:35:04,590 --> 00:35:06,840
like when I start doing bikes like this I was

687
00:35:06,850 --> 00:35:09,780
doing like I designed a couple of time trial bikes

688
00:35:09,969 --> 00:35:11,459
in the early two thousands,

689
00:35:11,879 --> 00:35:13,439
and it had like, a nice

690
00:35:13,659 --> 00:35:14,239
arow tubes.

691
00:35:14,250 --> 00:35:19,580
I was standing up, maybe not in a point, but a relatively narrow trailing edge.

692
00:35:20,379 --> 00:35:22,439
And then you stick a big water bottle behind it,

693
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:25,310
so you're channelling the air onto the water

694
00:35:25,500 --> 00:35:25,659
bottle.

695
00:35:26,189 --> 00:35:30,179
So we found that, uh, it's much better to shape the tube

696
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:33,479
to actually partially cover the bottle,

697
00:35:34,050 --> 00:35:34,919
and the

698
00:35:35,149 --> 00:35:37,620
total drag goes down,

699
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,770
because you are going to have water bottles.

700
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:42,229
Now,

701
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:45,100
if you are going to raise a four kilometre

702
00:35:45,110 --> 00:35:46,860
or five kilometre race or something like this,

703
00:35:46,870 --> 00:35:48,060
you don't have water bottles.

704
00:35:48,070 --> 00:35:48,719
Fine. But

705
00:35:48,899 --> 00:35:52,060
in the vast majority of cases you are carrying water bottles,

706
00:35:52,070 --> 00:35:53,939
even on time trial bikes.

707
00:35:55,300 --> 00:35:55,540
Yeah. Yeah.

708
00:35:55,879 --> 00:35:57,780
So what is it now, then? Because I'm

709
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:03,709
one. I think thing that maybe confuses people or they don't know is

710
00:36:03,919 --> 00:36:07,010
if you and this is nothing to do with this is more general now, not just Pinarello

711
00:36:07,139 --> 00:36:08,899
Pinarello, but just any bike brand.

712
00:36:09,540 --> 00:36:11,199
Every time a new bike comes out,

713
00:36:11,419 --> 00:36:16,139
there is some statistic of X. More stiffness. Yes. Let's drive. Like

714
00:36:16,340 --> 00:36:17,629
at what point

715
00:36:18,100 --> 00:36:23,389
is it still the case that bikes are legitimately getting better and better?

716
00:36:23,399 --> 00:36:25,360
How much runway is there?

717
00:36:25,649 --> 00:36:26,050
Yeah, or

718
00:36:26,250 --> 00:36:28,350
is it a massaging of maths?

719
00:36:28,639 --> 00:36:28,919
Yeah.

720
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:30,250
Um,

721
00:36:30,479 --> 00:36:30,510
I,

722
00:36:30,919 --> 00:36:37,100
I cannot talk about others. Uh, I can only talk about the designs that, uh,

723
00:36:37,399 --> 00:36:39,830
I do myself and my guys and

724
00:36:40,129 --> 00:36:41,209
the ones that we got

725
00:36:41,439 --> 00:36:41,939
on with Pinarello

726
00:36:42,500 --> 00:36:45,310
because you have to think about it When, uh when, uh,

727
00:36:46,159 --> 00:36:49,610
myself and my guys, we do that we don't do it in vacuum. We're working.

728
00:36:49,620 --> 00:36:50,770
Of course with Pinarello,

729
00:36:51,429 --> 00:36:51,550
they

730
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:52,209
have

731
00:36:52,409 --> 00:36:54,570
They also are contributing massively to that.

732
00:36:54,679 --> 00:36:57,100
And we're also working with the riders and so on.

733
00:36:57,820 --> 00:36:58,610
So

734
00:37:00,010 --> 00:37:03,850
the main, the main thing that is happening usually is.

735
00:37:03,860 --> 00:37:07,989
You are restricted by number one time and budget.

736
00:37:09,429 --> 00:37:13,649
So usually you only have so much time, and you have to finish the project,

737
00:37:13,659 --> 00:37:15,870
deliver it and it has to be manufactured.

738
00:37:15,879 --> 00:37:16,139
And

739
00:37:16,939 --> 00:37:19,330
start selling some of those so you can get

740
00:37:19,340 --> 00:37:22,489
money and go and do your next development round.

741
00:37:23,510 --> 00:37:26,479
So, as an engineer, whenever you design something,

742
00:37:26,489 --> 00:37:28,679
you try to push the envelope as far as you can.

743
00:37:28,689 --> 00:37:29,209
Uh,

744
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:31,770
you never really reaching perfection. The moment

745
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:35,209
you say this is finished, I send you to production.

746
00:37:36,610 --> 00:37:38,280
You wake up the next day and you go like ha.

747
00:37:40,340 --> 00:37:42,179
If I do this, it might be better.

748
00:37:42,949 --> 00:37:46,939
And, uh, if I do that, it might be better. So it's quite common

749
00:37:47,149 --> 00:37:47,899
that,

750
00:37:47,909 --> 00:37:53,260
uh the moment the design leaves the drawing board or the computer screen Nowadays,

751
00:37:53,770 --> 00:37:54,419
uh,

752
00:37:54,770 --> 00:37:58,350
you have ideas on how to do it better, but you have to stop it and deliver it.

753
00:37:58,929 --> 00:37:59,739
So

754
00:38:00,250 --> 00:38:07,699
it is true. The big gains, at least as we knew them in the past, they all gone

755
00:38:08,659 --> 00:38:13,040
and new ones, they start appearing as you know,

756
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:16,629
with, like, moving the seatstays and the forks

757
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:17,979
around, and so on.

758
00:38:18,370 --> 00:38:20,250
so the classic

759
00:38:20,909 --> 00:38:24,439
aerodynamics of just reducing the drag

760
00:38:24,860 --> 00:38:26,439
of the bike itself.

761
00:38:26,929 --> 00:38:28,360
It hasn't completely run,

762
00:38:29,260 --> 00:38:29,879
but

763
00:38:30,159 --> 00:38:32,780
it's close to pretty much that.

764
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:35,929
Mm. So that I was actually gonna ask you about that.

765
00:38:35,939 --> 00:38:38,179
So maybe for the history of people listening

766
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:40,770
we worked together on, um,

767
00:38:41,510 --> 00:38:43,229
on British cycling? Yeah.

768
00:38:43,879 --> 00:38:44,659
And

769
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:46,159
I. I think

770
00:38:47,050 --> 00:38:50,709
it was a novelty, which was the idea of

771
00:38:51,419 --> 00:38:54,320
looking at a more system level, Um,

772
00:38:54,330 --> 00:38:57,979
the bike and the rider and that if you took the bike on its own,

773
00:38:58,510 --> 00:38:59,270
you would

774
00:38:59,929 --> 00:39:02,169
only minimise that. But it may not affect the rider.

775
00:39:02,179 --> 00:39:04,530
And one of the things that we looked at was this

776
00:39:04,669 --> 00:39:08,590
wider seat stays and, um, wider, wider forks.

777
00:39:08,810 --> 00:39:10,830
Uh, have you seen that now

778
00:39:11,610 --> 00:39:12,750
translate

779
00:39:12,959 --> 00:39:16,929
slowly onto the road. This philosophy of aero—is that what you’re alluding to?

780
00:39:16,939 --> 00:39:19,580
The rider bike sort of as a system

781
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:20,989
drag reduction.

782
00:39:21,699 --> 00:39:23,320
Yeah, definitely.

783
00:39:23,739 --> 00:39:24,320
OK,

784
00:39:25,129 --> 00:39:28,189
you may say track is a very individual category,

785
00:39:28,469 --> 00:39:33,229
because on the track, you pretty much only hitting the wind head on.

786
00:39:34,439 --> 00:39:37,189
Although I think there is still something to be gained

787
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:39,770
by doing it for the corners.

788
00:39:40,139 --> 00:39:44,830
And, uh, I have some ideas that were partially tried in the past, but again,

789
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:46,250
you're running out of time in the budget.

790
00:39:46,260 --> 00:39:46,590
So

791
00:39:47,050 --> 00:39:47,300
next time.

792
00:39:48,300 --> 00:39:49,719
So, um,

793
00:39:50,750 --> 00:39:52,110
on the track

794
00:39:52,290 --> 00:39:55,909
is relatively speaking, easy. The wind comes only from the front.

795
00:39:56,209 --> 00:40:00,409
Therefore, you have now these elements which is like the, um, the

796
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:02,290
seatstays and the chainstays,

797
00:40:02,679 --> 00:40:05,070
which, by the way, in the upcoming Olympics,

798
00:40:05,489 --> 00:40:07,300
there are quite a few

799
00:40:07,540 --> 00:40:09,790
different teams. They have these,

800
00:40:09,969 --> 00:40:12,570
the Japanese, they have it. The French, they have it.

801
00:40:12,889 --> 00:40:13,850
Um,

802
00:40:14,060 --> 00:40:17,929
factor came up with a bike for the Aussies, which is something similar

803
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:20,820
even before we did it.

804
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:25,120
Um, Avanti from New Zealand had something similar

805
00:40:26,939 --> 00:40:29,620
you can argue of. Was it right? Was it wrong?

806
00:40:29,790 --> 00:40:31,620
Maybe the general direction was right.

807
00:40:31,629 --> 00:40:35,340
Maybe the execution, uh, needed a bit of improvement, but, uh,

808
00:40:36,250 --> 00:40:40,139
on the track, because it's a single condition is relatively speaking.

809
00:40:40,149 --> 00:40:42,750
Easy to If you are good with your CFD,

810
00:40:43,050 --> 00:40:44,469
you can just find something

811
00:40:45,939 --> 00:40:46,959
on the road.

812
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:49,489
We actually did look

813
00:40:49,770 --> 00:40:50,189
on that

814
00:40:51,479 --> 00:40:52,830
in the short

815
00:40:53,250 --> 00:40:55,570
span of time that we looked at it,

816
00:40:55,949 --> 00:40:59,340
we couldn't find any significant improvement,

817
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:06,320
primarily because you have to make it work for a quite a wide range of angles of

818
00:41:07,550 --> 00:41:14,149
Y. I don't say it's impossible. I am saying that this probably needs more R and D.

819
00:41:14,459 --> 00:41:16,729
Actually, I am convinced that, uh,

820
00:41:17,129 --> 00:41:21,239
the only significant way that you can go

821
00:41:21,250 --> 00:41:24,790
forward on this is to work on the interactions

822
00:41:25,260 --> 00:41:26,899
between the bike and the rider

823
00:41:27,479 --> 00:41:28,469
because

824
00:41:28,679 --> 00:41:31,580
the drag reduction of individual parts

825
00:41:31,889 --> 00:41:36,070
there is still a little bit of, uh, um, room to go, but not huge.

826
00:41:36,850 --> 00:41:40,209
So interactions between the two is definitely something.

827
00:41:40,610 --> 00:41:43,229
Another thing that happened recently on the track.

828
00:41:44,689 --> 00:41:47,989
There was always this idea that people they start making things, you know,

829
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:49,189
like on the handlebar.

830
00:41:49,429 --> 00:41:51,219
And you had, like, two bits they people,

831
00:41:51,229 --> 00:41:53,429
they start making the holding it like on the on the top.

832
00:41:54,679 --> 00:41:55,659
And, uh,

833
00:41:56,070 --> 00:41:58,639
I am partially responsible for that

834
00:41:58,860 --> 00:42:01,969
because in 2016, we've done some small version of this for karlo

835
00:42:02,429 --> 00:42:04,340
than other people. They pushed forward more,

836
00:42:04,669 --> 00:42:06,929
and now we actually did one that

837
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:09,520
instead of having those things up there

838
00:42:09,870 --> 00:42:10,260
in

839
00:42:11,100 --> 00:42:16,389
which then it brings your hands closer. So you are on a normal drop handlebar,

840
00:42:16,540 --> 00:42:19,510
and you are almost like if you are on a TT bar,

841
00:42:19,850 --> 00:42:26,399
and you can also rest your arm on the bar So you're racing with a normal handlebar,

842
00:42:26,590 --> 00:42:28,840
but you are in a position which is almost

843
00:42:29,189 --> 00:42:31,919
a a position, which is a time trial position.

844
00:42:33,010 --> 00:42:35,149
And this is not that the bike is more.

845
00:42:35,729 --> 00:42:39,629
We have to remember something like around 80% of the drag is the rider.

846
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:42,189
So if you can put the rider in a good position,

847
00:42:42,919 --> 00:42:45,620
we can talk about skin suits and all that stuff.

848
00:42:45,629 --> 00:42:47,659
But let's say it's the same skin suit, the same

849
00:42:47,860 --> 00:42:50,989
everything else. But you can put the rider in a better position.

850
00:42:51,330 --> 00:42:52,310
You can get a

851
00:42:52,500 --> 00:42:53,979
significant,

852
00:42:54,399 --> 00:42:56,709
uh, aerodynamic reductions. Uh,

853
00:42:57,389 --> 00:42:58,669
from that only,

854
00:42:58,840 --> 00:42:59,649
Like, uh,

855
00:42:59,780 --> 00:43:01,340
a classic case is

856
00:43:01,510 --> 00:43:02,860
you R in the sprint

857
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:04,139
and, uh,

858
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:08,060
we know from the wind tunnel, you need to put your elbows in,

859
00:43:08,750 --> 00:43:11,270
and that significantly improves the the drag.

860
00:43:12,020 --> 00:43:14,439
And when you're riding a screen with

861
00:43:14,610 --> 00:43:18,959
another rider next to you, a classic classic thing is that you go what

862
00:43:19,070 --> 00:43:22,110
you open your elbows like this, you defend your space.

863
00:43:22,739 --> 00:43:27,389
This is something like in in the region of about 25% more

864
00:43:28,159 --> 00:43:28,800
adynamic ground.

865
00:43:29,570 --> 00:43:31,810
So then you wonder why the other guy he

866
00:43:32,350 --> 00:43:32,899
overtake it,

867
00:43:33,649 --> 00:43:36,669
Whereas if you keep your nerve. You keep your elbows in,

868
00:43:37,290 --> 00:43:41,070
your drag doesn’t go up and the other guy might run out of steam.

869
00:43:41,879 --> 00:43:45,959
I I was actually gonna ask you, though, on going back to the bike design bit.

870
00:43:45,969 --> 00:43:49,540
I had one before you. You were talking about lightweight versus Aero

871
00:43:50,489 --> 00:43:52,870
and, um, that most people

872
00:43:53,070 --> 00:43:57,189
obsess about lightweight, you know, And and there's been this eternal debate.

873
00:43:57,679 --> 00:44:00,429
Just This is more of a topical question, I guess. But

874
00:44:00,899 --> 00:44:05,550
it seems now there is a trend in the past couple of years for riders

875
00:44:06,050 --> 00:44:07,030
to attack

876
00:44:07,669 --> 00:44:10,659
50 K to go and solo

877
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:15,489
rather than staying in a peloton. I Is there any evidence or thought that therefore,

878
00:44:15,780 --> 00:44:19,689
the importance of aero is even more because they're basically on their own for

879
00:44:21,469 --> 00:44:22,639
absolutely. I mean, uh

880
00:44:22,959 --> 00:44:26,909
uh again, you know, people they have the the question of,

881
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:31,489
um, weight versus aero. That is totally the wrong question.

882
00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:33,939
Because, uh, uh,

883
00:44:33,949 --> 00:44:39,169
the question needs to be Where is the right balance between those two?

884
00:44:39,379 --> 00:44:41,580
In fact, where is the right balance between,

885
00:44:41,959 --> 00:44:44,540
uh, weight, aero, stiffness?

886
00:44:45,179 --> 00:44:45,760
And, uh,

887
00:44:45,770 --> 00:44:49,300
let's not forget the reliability because it doesn't matter how aero

888
00:44:49,310 --> 00:44:52,429
or lightweight is if it goes bound and it breaks.

889
00:44:52,439 --> 00:44:53,899
No, it doesn't matter. Really?

890
00:44:54,570 --> 00:44:55,340
So,

891
00:44:55,989 --> 00:45:00,350
yes, when you're gonna be on your own to try to break away,

892
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:02,469
and then everybody is chasing you behind

893
00:45:03,709 --> 00:45:08,320
Aero is mega important, especially on a flat road. If it is, the

894
00:45:08,699 --> 00:45:09,850
there is

895
00:45:09,979 --> 00:45:13,760
for pro level the the tipping point.

896
00:45:14,330 --> 00:45:15,979
Um, because probably

897
00:45:16,100 --> 00:45:19,479
going up the mountain probably faster than I when I go down here.

898
00:45:19,929 --> 00:45:21,110
Uh, but, um,

899
00:45:21,500 --> 00:45:25,550
for pros, I think it is Somebody did the calculation a few years back,

900
00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:27,850
it was something about the region of about

901
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:31,550
7%. If I remember correctly of inclination

902
00:45:31,770 --> 00:45:34,310
before seven or 8% before

903
00:45:34,540 --> 00:45:35,199
weight

904
00:45:35,439 --> 00:45:37,449
was becoming more important than aero.

905
00:45:38,510 --> 00:45:42,540
therefore anything below that which most races, even mountain.

906
00:45:42,550 --> 00:45:45,290
Uh, when you have mountains, you are below that.

907
00:45:45,300 --> 00:45:48,209
There are not many sections that they going more than

908
00:45:48,219 --> 00:45:51,620
that there are they they go 10 and 15.

909
00:45:51,820 --> 00:45:55,199
There are some crazy sections of, uh, 20% inclination, But

910
00:45:55,300 --> 00:45:56,469
forget about those.

911
00:45:56,889 --> 00:45:57,560
So

912
00:45:58,729 --> 00:46:01,699
when you are out on the front and everybody is chasing you,

913
00:46:01,780 --> 00:46:05,800
aero is number one by a long, long way.

914
00:46:06,060 --> 00:46:09,959
And when I see people racing with, uh although nowadays not much,

915
00:46:09,969 --> 00:46:12,870
they're racing with helmets with big holes and so on.

916
00:46:13,830 --> 00:46:18,250
Uh, a helmet with, uh, big holes comparing to a helmet which is

917
00:46:18,379 --> 00:46:21,689
nice and smooth with minimum ventilation for the road.

918
00:46:22,370 --> 00:46:25,340
Uh, the difference is depending on what is your starting point.

919
00:46:25,350 --> 00:46:28,919
And so on—somewhere between 5% and 8% of overall drag.

920
00:46:29,469 --> 00:46:32,560
Just your helmet. If you say I like a lot of ventilation,

921
00:46:32,699 --> 00:46:34,330
Yeah, the air also likes it. It

922
00:46:34,739 --> 00:46:35,909
slows you down.

923
00:46:36,530 --> 00:46:40,459
So aero is mega important. And the moment you talk aero,

924
00:46:41,429 --> 00:46:45,729
your helmet matters how well your skin suit, how well,

925
00:46:45,739 --> 00:46:50,310
what you wearing is actually is attached to your body the moment you racing.

926
00:46:50,429 --> 00:46:53,560
I see sometimes I despair Sometimes, you see,

927
00:46:53,929 --> 00:46:54,379
probably

928
00:46:54,489 --> 00:46:54,669
VR

929
00:46:55,679 --> 00:46:58,919
on the biggest race of the world, like in the, uh, the,

930
00:46:59,030 --> 00:46:59,050
uh

931
00:46:59,429 --> 00:47:01,489
to the front. And they're racing.

932
00:47:01,649 --> 00:47:03,729
You see this thing over here going like this on the air

933
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:07,229
and you go for Christ's sake, any

934
00:47:07,330 --> 00:47:07,469
aerodynamicist

935
00:47:07,870 --> 00:47:10,419
will tell you that this is creating drag.

936
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:17,159
So what a pro level. What stops you from having better fitting, uh, clothing.

937
00:47:18,110 --> 00:47:18,939
So

938
00:47:19,229 --> 00:47:22,250
socks, shoes, wheels.

939
00:47:22,530 --> 00:47:25,330
I have an example to bring you, uh,

940
00:47:25,570 --> 00:47:29,929
I'm not gonna go into the detail or who was and all that. But, uh,

941
00:47:30,350 --> 00:47:31,530
I was in a meeting a

942
00:47:31,770 --> 00:47:32,860
few years back.

943
00:47:33,340 --> 00:47:37,770
We were talking about a rider, that it was quite a small size rider.

944
00:47:38,479 --> 00:47:40,340
So he was obsessed with the weight.

945
00:47:41,469 --> 00:47:45,899
So, uh, he was making his bike as light as possible.

946
00:47:45,909 --> 00:47:48,620
Putting the lightest wheels and the light is this and light as that

947
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:53,699
and his weight. Because he was a small size rider, his bike was going below

948
00:47:53,939 --> 00:47:54,649
the

949
00:47:55,139 --> 00:47:56,340
6.8 limit.

950
00:48:00,010 --> 00:48:02,459
So then they were adding weight on the bike

951
00:48:03,459 --> 00:48:05,229
to bring it back to the UCI limit.

952
00:48:05,709 --> 00:48:10,590
And I was in this meeting and I was saying, Why don't you do something with this weight

953
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:14,239
instead of carrying dead weight that that's really nothing

954
00:48:15,030 --> 00:48:18,520
for argument's sake from the lightweight wheels

955
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:20,659
that they were using to the

956
00:48:21,189 --> 00:48:24,030
aero wheels? The difference was, I know, 250 grammes,

957
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:27,979
which was about the amount of weight they were putting on.

958
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:30,350
So it's not that bike.

959
00:48:30,510 --> 00:48:32,330
The bike is gonna still be the same weight,

960
00:48:32,850 --> 00:48:37,800
but you have an extra advantage, which is more aerodynamics with aerodynamics.

961
00:48:37,810 --> 00:48:38,800
They will still a pro

962
00:48:39,429 --> 00:48:41,770
when it goes up an inclination of 5%.

963
00:48:42,060 --> 00:48:46,139
It still goes up at 35 kilometres an hour or 40 almost 40 kilometres an hour.

964
00:48:46,439 --> 00:48:48,209
So aerodynamics, they are important.

965
00:48:48,659 --> 00:48:50,179
So then

966
00:48:50,530 --> 00:48:54,060
since that time they changed their minds. That was Team Sky at the time.

967
00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:55,679
And they

968
00:48:55,959 --> 00:48:56,659
don't

969
00:48:56,840 --> 00:49:01,580
use that weight. They will put it the lightest they can for that rider

970
00:49:01,879 --> 00:49:03,860
with a weight that is usable,

971
00:49:04,500 --> 00:49:06,669
not adding lead weight on.

972
00:49:09,169 --> 00:49:11,129
So weight is important

973
00:49:11,929 --> 00:49:14,790
and aerodynamics important. You have to have the balance.

974
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:18,149
We did a calculation like this once.

975
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:19,350
I think it was

976
00:49:20,550 --> 00:49:23,810
if I remember correctly, it was 2017.

977
00:49:25,219 --> 00:49:28,379
Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was 2017. Uh, Tour de France.

978
00:49:32,860 --> 00:49:35,360
So 2017, Tour de France. And

979
00:49:36,659 --> 00:49:39,300
there was AI think there were two time trials

980
00:49:39,310 --> 00:49:41,620
and one of them was a very mountainous time trial.

981
00:49:41,629 --> 00:49:42,310
There is this

982
00:49:42,919 --> 00:49:47,260
picture of Chris Froome going up. This, uh uh, very steep

983
00:49:47,379 --> 00:49:48,000
hill.

984
00:49:49,110 --> 00:49:49,719
Uh,

985
00:49:50,100 --> 00:49:55,620
with the small, uh, changing of the front. I'm not quite sure if that was a 42 or 39.

986
00:49:55,629 --> 00:49:56,360
Something like this

987
00:49:57,050 --> 00:49:57,719
and a

988
00:49:58,340 --> 00:50:03,840
29 or 30 teeth, uh, gear on the back, standing on the pedals.

989
00:50:04,070 --> 00:50:07,870
So you had, like, a top of the world level rider

990
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:13,159
that he that hill was so steep that he actually had to go like time trailing up,

991
00:50:13,169 --> 00:50:14,229
standing on the pedals.

992
00:50:15,659 --> 00:50:16,439
But

993
00:50:17,050 --> 00:50:19,120
that bike on the starting line,

994
00:50:19,850 --> 00:50:24,189
it was 7.2 kg or something like this

995
00:50:26,060 --> 00:50:29,330
with time trial bars, this wheel on the back and three spoke wheel on the front.

996
00:50:30,139 --> 00:50:31,199
And, uh,

997
00:50:31,479 --> 00:50:35,719
the reason for that is we've done a lot of maths behind this

998
00:50:35,969 --> 00:50:39,760
of what is that? What if What if you use a

999
00:50:40,110 --> 00:50:41,719
time travel bike on the flats

1000
00:50:42,379 --> 00:50:47,290
and then you use a normal bike up the mountain with normal wheels so

1001
00:50:47,300 --> 00:50:49,459
you can stop in the pedals and do whatever you want to do?

1002
00:50:50,270 --> 00:50:55,090
And we found that if the weight difference is less than a kilo,

1003
00:50:55,330 --> 00:50:57,449
the aero bike was winning every time.

1004
00:50:58,570 --> 00:50:59,699
Because

1005
00:50:59,830 --> 00:51:01,489
you will be, uh, a

1006
00:51:01,669 --> 00:51:03,590
fair bit faster on the flood.

1007
00:51:04,810 --> 00:51:08,129
And you don't have the penalty of changing over,

1008
00:51:08,139 --> 00:51:11,030
plus the potential potential of something going wrong.

1009
00:51:11,929 --> 00:51:15,669
And we did the calculation, and the calculation was showing that,

1010
00:51:16,409 --> 00:51:17,110
um,

1011
00:51:17,260 --> 00:51:23,149
the overall benefit will be roughly the 20 seconds mark. Comparing to

1012
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:27,909
changing bikes and stopping over and changing, going from one bike to the other.

1013
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:31,689
And actually, uh, I think that time trial,

1014
00:51:31,699 --> 00:51:37,060
if I remember correctly, Froome won it over Dumoulin by 21 seconds.

1015
00:51:38,959 --> 00:51:41,979
There. There is another example I can give you of something like this,

1016
00:51:42,419 --> 00:51:45,709
which again is not so much only verse weight only.

1017
00:51:45,810 --> 00:51:48,139
But this is actually an example that concentrates

1018
00:51:48,149 --> 00:51:50,300
on the weight but also includes the air.

1019
00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:53,399
In 2002,

1020
00:51:54,979 --> 00:51:57,570
I did the very first frames for British cycling,

1021
00:51:58,330 --> 00:52:02,909
and they raced in the Commonwealth Games. They was struck in July that year,

1022
00:52:03,350 --> 00:52:05,229
and it was only frames, no fork.

1023
00:52:06,629 --> 00:52:09,189
And they said, Can we do a fork about this one, please?

1024
00:52:09,199 --> 00:52:13,570
And so I did one fork because the time available, I could only do one fork,

1025
00:52:13,580 --> 00:52:14,770
and Chris Coy erased it.

1026
00:52:15,629 --> 00:52:20,330
That fork it was around 300 grammes. If I remember correctly,

1027
00:52:20,830 --> 00:52:22,929
the previous fork it was something in the region

1028
00:52:22,939 --> 00:52:25,959
of about 500 grammes or 200 grammes difference.

1029
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:31,139
It was also significantly slimmer. So the aerodynamics, they will also be better.

1030
00:52:31,429 --> 00:52:35,770
But at the time, we never really tested one against the other.

1031
00:52:35,780 --> 00:52:37,260
So I don't really know how much better.

1032
00:52:37,850 --> 00:52:40,879
Let's assume that it was only the weight in this case,

1033
00:52:40,889 --> 00:52:44,110
although I'm pretty sure the aero difference was also significant.

1034
00:52:46,070 --> 00:52:47,320
200 grammes.

1035
00:52:47,750 --> 00:52:48,050
Chris

1036
00:52:48,219 --> 00:52:51,050
Coy at the time was like 95 kg or something like this,

1037
00:52:51,429 --> 00:52:54,000
plus the bike. So over 100 kg.

1038
00:52:54,409 --> 00:52:56,169
So let's call it 100 kg.

1039
00:52:56,750 --> 00:53:00,530
200 grammes is a 0.2% weight difference

1040
00:53:00,679 --> 00:53:02,439
which you go like. That's pretty small

1041
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:05,290
on the kilometre, which, where he used it

1042
00:53:06,770 --> 00:53:07,379
flat,

1043
00:53:08,340 --> 00:53:09,669
you don't take it up. The mountain

1044
00:53:10,290 --> 00:53:12,540
weight only matters in the acceleration phase,

1045
00:53:12,550 --> 00:53:16,320
which is usually the first lap roughly 250 metres or so.

1046
00:53:17,399 --> 00:53:20,000
After that, it doesn't really matter, because after that is flat,

1047
00:53:20,010 --> 00:53:21,219
you don't accelerate anymore.

1048
00:53:21,270 --> 00:53:22,860
If anything, your speed goes down.

1049
00:53:23,489 --> 00:53:24,750
So, um

1050
00:53:25,520 --> 00:53:29,790
so we calculate, uh, maybe slightly wrong on the numbers because, uh,

1051
00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:32,340
tw 2002 is a long time ago.

1052
00:53:32,929 --> 00:53:35,820
Uh, so we calculated and the

1053
00:53:36,100 --> 00:53:40,340
improvement It was something in the region, maybe

1054
00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:48,500
to I think it was about 18,000 of a second. Let's call it

1055
00:53:48,669 --> 00:53:52,370
0.02 of a second. Let's keep it simple.

1056
00:53:53,479 --> 00:53:56,050
So let's call it two hundreds of a second.

1057
00:53:56,639 --> 00:54:00,820
Let's assume that the calculation was wrong and you were only getting half of that.

1058
00:54:00,830 --> 00:54:06,699
Let's call it that it was 0.01 of a second, meaning 1/100 of a second.

1059
00:54:08,479 --> 00:54:09,250
Um,

1060
00:54:10,689 --> 00:54:12,709
Chris Coy. He won that event

1061
00:54:13,199 --> 00:54:15,389
for 1000.

1062
00:54:17,379 --> 00:54:20,310
So even if the calculation was way out of it,

1063
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:24,290
1/1000 of a second was the winning margin.

1064
00:54:24,780 --> 00:54:29,419
So the 200 grammes in the particular case, even if you exclude the

1065
00:54:29,669 --> 00:54:30,669
aerodynamics benefit,

1066
00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:33,850
it was more than enough to

1067
00:54:34,189 --> 00:54:35,840
take some Take

1068
00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:36,340
a world

1069
00:54:36,489 --> 00:54:37,860
class rider. OK?

1070
00:54:38,610 --> 00:54:39,709
Because if I was

1071
00:54:39,820 --> 00:54:40,800
anything that would win it.

1072
00:54:41,739 --> 00:54:42,679
So take a world

1073
00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:46,139
class rider from this position to that position, and that's what you need.

1074
00:54:47,250 --> 00:54:49,250
You don't Nobody remembers who was second,

1075
00:54:50,850 --> 00:54:51,520
If you ask who

1076
00:54:51,699 --> 00:54:52,860
was second on the Tour de France

1077
00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:54,100
last year, very few people

1078
00:54:56,439 --> 00:54:56,659
that

1079
00:54:59,439 --> 00:54:59,449
I

1080
00:54:59,639 --> 00:54:59,790
didn't ask

1081
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:00,199
you about

1082
00:55:00,600 --> 00:55:00,770
stiffness

1083
00:55:01,139 --> 00:55:01,370
because I

1084
00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:01,770
feel that

1085
00:55:02,050 --> 00:55:02,189
are

1086
00:55:02,989 --> 00:55:03,169
kind

1087
00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:03,370
of,

1088
00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:06,300
well, not well understood, but it's kind of very thin.

1089
00:55:06,750 --> 00:55:08,020
But even for me, like

1090
00:55:08,790 --> 00:55:09,560
thickness,

1091
00:55:10,090 --> 00:55:13,429
do you have any way of explaining if you have someone like a Van der

1092
00:55:13,709 --> 00:55:17,199
Paal or Bernard where they they seem to have this unbelievable

1093
00:55:17,610 --> 00:55:19,000
power. How would

1094
00:55:19,489 --> 00:55:22,560
the different stiffness of a bike translate?

1095
00:55:24,439 --> 00:55:29,020
That's a very interesting question, because this is something that so far, um,

1096
00:55:29,060 --> 00:55:31,979
I only have experience

1097
00:55:32,620 --> 00:55:37,050
and quite a lot of circumstantial evidence, but not significant.

1098
00:55:37,060 --> 00:55:38,580
No scientific proof.

1099
00:55:39,760 --> 00:55:40,419
Um,

1100
00:55:40,649 --> 00:55:44,179
earlier on early on, when I was cycling and so on, um,

1101
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:48,090
when I was riding my bike, I realised you're standing on the pedals

1102
00:55:48,340 --> 00:55:51,229
on a steep hill and you do that

1103
00:55:51,350 --> 00:55:52,179
as you're pedalling

1104
00:55:52,979 --> 00:55:54,600
and you can hear some noise and

1105
00:55:56,469 --> 00:55:58,300
which is the tyres

1106
00:55:58,649 --> 00:55:59,610
as you

1107
00:55:59,989 --> 00:56:01,340
leaning the bike

1108
00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:05,020
and the tyres they scrubbing on the on the ground.

1109
00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:07,540
So in reality, your bike goes that way.

1110
00:56:08,229 --> 00:56:11,729
But your tyres, they going that one that way and one that way,

1111
00:56:12,770 --> 00:56:14,520
and they do this in effect.

1112
00:56:15,239 --> 00:56:18,659
You can see that on the FEA, on the stress analysis.

1113
00:56:18,919 --> 00:56:22,729
As you apply the laws on the pedals, the frame always distorts.

1114
00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:28,020
And actually the frame always distorts more towards the left

1115
00:56:28,709 --> 00:56:29,399
and L.

1116
00:56:29,770 --> 00:56:30,739
Thor was right

1117
00:56:31,370 --> 00:56:33,610
Because of the reaction of the chain.

1118
00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:36,449
The chain is on the right hand side.

1119
00:56:36,919 --> 00:56:39,879
So when you apply the load in the right pedal,

1120
00:56:40,080 --> 00:56:42,459
the chain is also trying to squeeze

1121
00:56:42,770 --> 00:56:44,290
the uh, right

1122
00:56:44,409 --> 00:56:44,790
hand chain

1123
00:56:45,060 --> 00:56:45,090
thing

1124
00:56:45,469 --> 00:56:49,159
and the bike moves, the bottom bracket moves more to the left. And

1125
00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:52,020
then what you do on the left pedal

1126
00:56:52,510 --> 00:56:54,350
it goes, I try to move the other way,

1127
00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:57,260
but the chain tension is actually trying to counteract this.

1128
00:56:58,340 --> 00:57:01,530
So all bikes. When you apply the pedals, they

1129
00:57:02,070 --> 00:57:05,090
they move more to the left and less to the right.

1130
00:57:05,669 --> 00:57:08,929
Now, as your bottom bracket moves to the left,

1131
00:57:09,459 --> 00:57:11,729
your rear wheel moves with it because

1132
00:57:11,870 --> 00:57:15,060
the chain stays, uh, directly on the bottom bracket,

1133
00:57:15,110 --> 00:57:16,810
and then they're holding the rear wheel.

1134
00:57:16,860 --> 00:57:21,199
So you apply the the the load in the pedal and the wheel

1135
00:57:21,209 --> 00:57:24,239
goes more to the right and a little bit to the left.

1136
00:57:24,250 --> 00:57:28,010
Sorry, more to the left and a bit on the right, more to the left and a bit on the right.

1137
00:57:28,379 --> 00:57:30,189
So every time the wheel is doing this,

1138
00:57:30,479 --> 00:57:31,649
the wheel is scrubbing

1139
00:57:33,600 --> 00:57:35,540
and you're losing some power.

1140
00:57:36,649 --> 00:57:40,979
The nearest I came up with any kind of number for this one

1141
00:57:41,649 --> 00:57:45,750
is that there is a study that I found

1142
00:57:46,100 --> 00:57:48,580
that it was calculating on, uh,

1143
00:57:48,949 --> 00:57:50,790
if you have, um,

1144
00:57:52,139 --> 00:57:55,060
CERs or the wings they are actually pointing in or pointing out

1145
00:57:55,340 --> 00:57:58,409
how the rolling resistance changes.

1146
00:57:59,280 --> 00:58:01,129
The rolling resistance change is

1147
00:58:02,419 --> 00:58:04,699
roughly, I mean, it would depend on the tyre.

1148
00:58:04,709 --> 00:58:07,949
What is the surface of the road and all sorts of numbers?

1149
00:58:08,689 --> 00:58:09,709
For

1150
00:58:09,979 --> 00:58:15,229
one degree, in or out, you have roughly 50% increase on the rolling resistance.

1151
00:58:15,610 --> 00:58:19,510
Two degrees, 100% increase on rolling resistance.

1152
00:58:21,050 --> 00:58:26,300
Uh, then you may ask the question How much the wheels they're coming out

1153
00:58:26,719 --> 00:58:29,629
the wheels, they're coming out, depending on

1154
00:58:29,909 --> 00:58:34,530
two things. How flexible the bike is, which is primarily the frame

1155
00:58:34,709 --> 00:58:36,179
and, to an extent, the wheels

1156
00:58:37,719 --> 00:58:38,820
and, uh,

1157
00:58:39,050 --> 00:58:46,860
how heavy the rider is and how symmetric is. Some people are nice, smooth riders,

1158
00:58:47,820 --> 00:58:51,810
some people, they just pounding on the pedals and they go boom, boom, boom.

1159
00:58:52,449 --> 00:58:53,219
So

1160
00:58:53,790 --> 00:58:54,979
it depends

1161
00:58:55,149 --> 00:58:58,989
on the amount of power and how you put the power down and the weight of the R.

1162
00:58:59,780 --> 00:59:02,959
So bigger, heavier riders, as you said

1163
00:59:03,199 --> 00:59:08,000
Van Aert or a big sprinter on the track, or something like this

1164
00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:12,129
will benefit more from a stiff frame.

1165
00:59:12,909 --> 00:59:15,570
What I say 50 kg Rider

1166
00:59:16,310 --> 00:59:19,889
will benefit less maybe for a 50 kg rider

1167
00:59:20,139 --> 00:59:22,790
that is a smooth pedal and running small gears

1168
00:59:24,270 --> 00:59:25,959
that will make not much of a difference.

1169
00:59:26,929 --> 00:59:30,310
So it very much depends on the rider.

1170
00:59:30,320 --> 00:59:33,060
And in general, the bigger the more powerful you are,

1171
00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:35,060
the more you're gonna benefit out of Steve Frame.

1172
00:59:35,879 --> 00:59:37,290
So how do you

1173
00:59:38,179 --> 00:59:39,610
How do you achieve that then?

1174
00:59:39,620 --> 00:59:43,300
So when we get all the details, you're designing a bike, let's say just for now,

1175
00:59:43,310 --> 00:59:44,250
it's a road bike.

1176
00:59:44,449 --> 00:59:49,570
How do you practically engineer in stiffness? And the second question to that is,

1177
00:59:49,939 --> 00:59:51,389
What about comfort?

1178
00:59:52,129 --> 00:59:52,510
Yeah,

1179
00:59:52,719 --> 00:59:54,429
uh, stiffness

1180
00:59:54,870 --> 00:59:56,149
on a bike frame.

1181
00:59:57,820 --> 01:00:00,439
Let's let's look at on the bike frame for the time being. Because

1182
01:00:00,540 --> 01:00:01,280
for argument's sake,

1183
01:00:01,290 --> 01:00:05,669
comfort on the road bike to a very significant extent is actually the tyres.

1184
01:00:07,540 --> 01:00:12,100
Yeah, especially nowadays that people just start going bigger and bigger tyres,

1185
01:00:12,600 --> 01:00:15,229
uh, is not far from,

1186
01:00:15,629 --> 01:00:20,800
if not 100%. Probably 95% of what you're feeling as comfort is the tyres

1187
01:00:21,639 --> 01:00:26,719
in. In the old days, when the tyres, they were like very thin like 2123 millimetres

1188
01:00:27,030 --> 01:00:29,050
and pumped up, pumped up quite high,

1189
01:00:29,729 --> 01:00:34,110
uh, then the frame and the wings that were playing a bigger role,

1190
01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:36,659
But now that, uh,

1191
01:00:36,760 --> 01:00:40,870
23 millimetre tyres is considered to be a very skinny tyre

1192
01:00:41,479 --> 01:00:42,620
and people they are

1193
01:00:42,840 --> 01:00:48,719
running 28 millimetre tyres or 30 millimetre tyres. So on on low pressures,

1194
01:00:49,020 --> 01:00:51,070
comfort comes.

1195
01:00:51,570 --> 01:00:54,149
The vast majority comes from the tyre,

1196
01:00:54,959 --> 01:00:59,719
the wheel itself. In terms of like how much it will absorb vertically,

1197
01:00:59,879 --> 01:01:01,229
you can pretty much ignore it.

1198
01:01:02,570 --> 01:01:06,870
The frames they are, at least for the frames that

1199
01:01:07,820 --> 01:01:08,679
I do. For Pinarello,

1200
01:01:10,270 --> 01:01:14,060
it may look a bit just a fancy shape that the seat stays on the back.

1201
01:01:14,070 --> 01:01:15,080
They are not straight,

1202
01:01:15,219 --> 01:01:16,830
but they have like a little bit of a zigzag

1203
01:01:16,949 --> 01:01:17,409
shape

1204
01:01:18,260 --> 01:01:21,020
that is primarily for soccer Georgia.

1205
01:01:21,830 --> 01:01:26,530
So they they give you a little bit of an a smoother ride because

1206
01:01:26,800 --> 01:01:28,969
they can allow a little bit of flex.

1207
01:01:30,070 --> 01:01:32,850
That actually came from the time that the

1208
01:01:32,860 --> 01:01:36,250
thicker tyres and the thin tyres were prevalent.

1209
01:01:36,659 --> 01:01:40,360
Nowadays, with the thicker tyres, it probably makes no real difference.

1210
01:01:41,550 --> 01:01:46,000
OK, but, uh, this is like what is comfort and how stiffness is related to that.

1211
01:01:46,010 --> 01:01:46,729
And also,

1212
01:01:47,350 --> 01:01:52,209
when you're designing a bike, when they're talking about the stiffness of the bike,

1213
01:01:52,949 --> 01:01:58,250
they primarily refer to the stiffness of what you may call the power transfer.

1214
01:01:58,659 --> 01:02:00,570
So in effect you have it

1215
01:02:01,580 --> 01:02:02,560
from the head tube

1216
01:02:03,739 --> 01:02:06,000
to the bottom bracket to the rear wheel.

1217
01:02:06,610 --> 01:02:08,729
So when you're designing a bike,

1218
01:02:09,120 --> 01:02:11,629
if you do a straight line between the,

1219
01:02:12,350 --> 01:02:15,110
um the rear, the centre of the rear wheel

1220
01:02:15,399 --> 01:02:19,310
to the top of the head tube, anything below that

1221
01:02:19,580 --> 01:02:22,669
it has to be designed for primarily torsional stiffness.

1222
01:02:22,699 --> 01:02:25,350
Because it's the bit that actually matters when you're pedalling.

1223
01:02:25,810 --> 01:02:29,070
And anything above that is designed to be more

1224
01:02:29,080 --> 01:02:32,120
compliant so it can actually reduce the shock absorption.

1225
01:02:32,129 --> 01:02:33,870
Sorry, increase the shock absorption.

1226
01:02:34,889 --> 01:02:37,199
So the lower part of the frame.

1227
01:02:37,209 --> 01:02:43,050
That’s why you see large down tubes and large, uh, chainstays,

1228
01:02:43,360 --> 01:02:46,850
and, relatively speaking, a large lower part of the seat tube.

1229
01:02:47,540 --> 01:02:50,429
Because by doing this, what you're ending up with

1230
01:02:50,840 --> 01:02:55,939
you minimising the relative move relative movement of the bottom bracket,

1231
01:02:55,949 --> 01:02:56,830
trying to

1232
01:02:56,979 --> 01:02:57,739
wander

1233
01:02:57,840 --> 01:02:59,229
left and right as you pedal it.

1234
01:02:59,649 --> 01:03:03,100
And the way you do it is, you do your stress analysis.

1235
01:03:03,459 --> 01:03:06,639
You see where your stress is and your flex is generated,

1236
01:03:06,649 --> 01:03:08,199
and you try to put material over there.

1237
01:03:08,949 --> 01:03:09,739
And, uh,

1238
01:03:10,560 --> 01:03:14,939
you can do this either by adding material or increasing the cross sections.

1239
01:03:16,379 --> 01:03:17,909
OK, so you are

1240
01:03:18,129 --> 01:03:21,439
just for people to understand. So you're saying essentially

1241
01:03:22,229 --> 01:03:24,510
the difference between

1242
01:03:25,060 --> 01:03:28,500
a very stiff bike or a not very stiff bike

1243
01:03:28,659 --> 01:03:31,330
The way that it translates essentially into your speed

1244
01:03:31,810 --> 01:03:34,649
is partially that as you stamp down on the pedals

1245
01:03:35,209 --> 01:03:37,330
and a bike that's not very stiff,

1246
01:03:37,340 --> 01:03:40,719
Will will basically cause a lot more sort of lateral movement

1247
01:03:42,060 --> 01:03:43,129
in the tyre,

1248
01:03:45,020 --> 01:03:49,360
and therefore the rolling resistance would kind of increase,

1249
01:03:49,370 --> 01:03:52,520
whereas a very stiff bike is going to stay a lot more true.

1250
01:03:52,530 --> 01:03:52,780
And,

1251
01:03:53,800 --> 01:03:54,159
yeah,

1252
01:03:54,580 --> 01:03:56,739
be careful a stiff bike

1253
01:03:56,919 --> 01:04:01,810
on the drive train side. No, you should not compare stiff bike on the feeling

1254
01:04:02,429 --> 01:04:03,909
or comfortable

1255
01:04:04,060 --> 01:04:04,300
is,

1256
01:04:05,129 --> 01:04:05,199
uh,

1257
01:04:05,590 --> 01:04:09,830
there are quite a lot of misconceptions about this one. Like, uh,

1258
01:04:09,979 --> 01:04:12,530
for argument's sake, in the

1259
01:04:13,399 --> 01:04:15,790
in the early days of aluminium frames,

1260
01:04:16,909 --> 01:04:19,689
people they were saying, Oh, aluminium frames are very flexible.

1261
01:04:19,959 --> 01:04:22,929
I know that because I was riding one in the eighties

1262
01:04:24,129 --> 01:04:25,879
and actually, I liked it to be fair, and

1263
01:04:26,000 --> 01:04:28,379
they were saying, it's too flexible and, uh,

1264
01:04:29,290 --> 01:04:32,669
yeah, you're losing power. But I was still beating everybody in the spring,

1265
01:04:34,399 --> 01:04:37,350
but anyway, so, uh, Then later on,

1266
01:04:37,360 --> 01:04:41,020
somebody realised the likes of Klein and Canon Dale.

1267
01:04:41,030 --> 01:04:41,989
They were like the

1268
01:04:42,149 --> 01:04:44,110
the ones that they came up with the idea,

1269
01:04:44,510 --> 01:04:45,919
but a large diameter,

1270
01:04:46,110 --> 01:04:46,139
an

1271
01:04:46,639 --> 01:04:46,979
tube.

1272
01:04:47,709 --> 01:04:51,689
It can make the bike both lighter and stiffer.

1273
01:04:53,550 --> 01:04:56,199
So they start making these bikes with a large

1274
01:04:56,209 --> 01:04:59,169
down tubes and large tubes here and there.

1275
01:04:59,419 --> 01:05:03,290
And the way it went down like an old steel frame

1276
01:05:04,110 --> 01:05:06,169
if you were going below 2 kg,

1277
01:05:06,610 --> 01:05:08,699
Uh, we're talking about the good quality, like a

1278
01:05:09,060 --> 01:05:09,139
Columbus

1279
01:05:09,560 --> 01:05:12,090
Lakes, which you can still buy today if you want to.

1280
01:05:12,310 --> 01:05:15,810
If you go below 2 kg, you were actually pretty good, actually,

1281
01:05:16,469 --> 01:05:20,090
uh, and, uh, the aluminium frames of the day.

1282
01:05:20,120 --> 01:05:22,320
Uh, they were just hardly any lighter,

1283
01:05:22,330 --> 01:05:24,250
maybe 100 grammes lighter or something like that.

1284
01:05:25,409 --> 01:05:27,790
Then when they found out that you can

1285
01:05:27,800 --> 01:05:30,610
do lightweight aluminium frames with large diameters,

1286
01:05:30,620 --> 01:05:32,110
the weight dropped dramatically.

1287
01:05:32,449 --> 01:05:38,629
And, uh, you could buy an aluminium frame at 1.3 kg or even 1.2 kg.

1288
01:05:38,750 --> 01:05:41,350
And for a period, you could buy a sub

1289
01:05:41,669 --> 01:05:43,270
1 kg frame.

1290
01:05:44,149 --> 01:05:48,330
But, uh, that was before the IO testing that, uh, uh,

1291
01:05:48,719 --> 01:05:53,080
mandated you need to do a lot of fatigue and stuff like that. So then the sub

1292
01:05:53,479 --> 01:05:55,429
1 kg aluminium frames disappeared.

1293
01:05:56,280 --> 01:06:00,229
But the way they were doing this is they were going very large diameter, say,

1294
01:06:00,239 --> 01:06:02,399
6070 millimetre diameter tubes.

1295
01:06:02,409 --> 01:06:03,129
They were like sub

1296
01:06:03,250 --> 01:06:06,060
millimetre wall thickness, which makes it very stiff,

1297
01:06:06,270 --> 01:06:08,469
very light and pretty strong, actually.

1298
01:06:08,659 --> 01:06:09,300
But,

1299
01:06:10,179 --> 01:06:10,790
uh

1300
01:06:11,199 --> 01:06:11,340
uh,

1301
01:06:11,540 --> 01:06:13,350
comfort suffered,

1302
01:06:13,649 --> 01:06:15,550
and there was this myth that

1303
01:06:15,770 --> 01:06:18,479
Oh, aluminium is stiffer than steel.

1304
01:06:19,469 --> 01:06:22,649
Anybody who's a little bit into engineering

1305
01:06:22,899 --> 01:06:23,889
will tell you

1306
01:06:24,679 --> 01:06:28,350
for the same cross section. Aluminium is one third of the weight

1307
01:06:28,600 --> 01:06:30,179
and one third of the stiffness.

1308
01:06:30,919 --> 01:06:34,889
So if you make something exactly the same, it will not be stiffer.

1309
01:06:34,899 --> 01:06:37,949
It will be actually a lot less stiff,

1310
01:06:38,550 --> 01:06:41,629
but it was purely the large diameter that was making it.

1311
01:06:42,649 --> 01:06:44,449
So stiffness

1312
01:06:45,219 --> 01:06:49,429
is something that I think is still a bit overlooked.

1313
01:06:50,139 --> 01:06:54,199
Um, I only have circumstantial evidence. I know there are some people.

1314
01:06:54,209 --> 01:06:56,649
They try to put some science behind it.

1315
01:06:57,649 --> 01:07:01,070
I don't really know the results yet. I hope they manage to find something.

1316
01:07:01,080 --> 01:07:01,790
I'll be very interested.

1317
01:07:03,399 --> 01:07:06,030
So one of the things that, um,

1318
01:07:06,729 --> 01:07:08,830
I was wondering about is that on the material side,

1319
01:07:08,840 --> 01:07:11,659
there's obviously something where I think you've done a lot of innovation.

1320
01:07:11,719 --> 01:07:13,469
But if you look back Steel,

1321
01:07:13,580 --> 01:07:14,209
aluminium,

1322
01:07:14,500 --> 01:07:15,909
carbon fibre.

1323
01:07:16,679 --> 01:07:19,550
So where does the link between

1324
01:07:20,010 --> 01:07:23,699
carbon fibre titanium 3D printing? What?

1325
01:07:23,709 --> 01:07:27,189
Where Where are we at now and where are things kind of

1326
01:07:27,469 --> 01:07:30,989
going towards? Is that an area of sort of innovation?

1327
01:07:32,290 --> 01:07:32,909
So

1328
01:07:33,669 --> 01:07:36,600
if we look if we live, um,

1329
01:07:37,629 --> 01:07:39,090
carbon fibre out for a minute,

1330
01:07:39,850 --> 01:07:45,540
if you look on the you make all the three main materials like steel,

1331
01:07:46,020 --> 01:07:47,709
aluminium and titanium,

1332
01:07:48,340 --> 01:07:50,239
and we can go to carbon fibre a bit later.

1333
01:07:51,750 --> 01:07:56,330
These materials, uh, they're actually quite interesting because

1334
01:07:58,090 --> 01:07:59,469
if we say,

1335
01:07:59,760 --> 01:08:00,550
um,

1336
01:08:00,739 --> 01:08:04,870
aluminium is roughly one third the weight of, uh uh, steel

1337
01:08:05,229 --> 01:08:06,949
and roughly one third

1338
01:08:07,360 --> 01:08:10,739
the stiffness and the strength, Uh, maybe not the strength, but the stiffness,

1339
01:08:11,739 --> 01:08:15,399
different alloys. They will have different strengths and all that stiff.

1340
01:08:15,409 --> 01:08:17,640
One important thing to understand is also

1341
01:08:17,959 --> 01:08:24,759
stiffness stays relatively unchanged within that group of material.

1342
01:08:24,770 --> 01:08:28,450
So more or less all steel will have a very similar stiffness.

1343
01:08:28,459 --> 01:08:30,560
Not exactly the same, but very similar.

1344
01:08:31,220 --> 01:08:33,120
Maybe within a 5% range,

1345
01:08:33,470 --> 01:08:35,259
and the same thing for all aluminums.

1346
01:08:35,270 --> 01:08:38,609
Between the lowest stiffness to the highest stiffness,

1347
01:08:38,620 --> 01:08:41,060
it will be something in the region of about 5%.

1348
01:08:41,509 --> 01:08:41,890
Titanium

1349
01:08:42,609 --> 01:08:45,200
sits pretty much between. Those two

1350
01:08:45,839 --> 01:08:48,479
is about, uh, a third

1351
01:08:48,649 --> 01:08:50,759
lighter than steel, but a third,

1352
01:08:50,859 --> 01:08:52,609
but, uh, heavier than Albi.

1353
01:08:53,950 --> 01:08:55,500
The strength. Sorry.

1354
01:08:55,509 --> 01:09:00,209
The stiffness of, uh, uh, titanium again is like halfway between those two.

1355
01:09:01,269 --> 01:09:03,167
The strength of titanium

1356
01:09:03,429 --> 01:09:04,999
is close air

1357
01:09:05,377 --> 01:09:09,358
to, um, steel than what aluminium is.

1358
01:09:10,450 --> 01:09:13,399
So in theory you can make it a lighter bike,

1359
01:09:13,410 --> 01:09:15,759
but you will end up with a more flexible bike

1360
01:09:17,069 --> 01:09:18,439
now, carbon fibre.

1361
01:09:19,379 --> 01:09:21,160
It is a very interesting material

1362
01:09:21,770 --> 01:09:26,669
because carbon fibre can have a really vast range of properties.

1363
01:09:26,939 --> 01:09:28,160
It can be,

1364
01:09:28,660 --> 01:09:29,359
uh,

1365
01:09:30,559 --> 01:09:31,457
less.

1366
01:09:32,629 --> 01:09:34,169
I'm sorry. The main

1367
01:09:34,439 --> 01:09:36,950
thing about carbon fibre, it is actually very light.

1368
01:09:36,959 --> 01:09:42,689
It's significantly lighter than aluminium it. It's not halfway down, it's not.

1369
01:09:42,700 --> 01:09:44,330
It's not half the aluminium,

1370
01:09:44,680 --> 01:09:48,569
but, uh, for equal thickness and so on. If aluminium is 10,

1371
01:09:48,910 --> 01:09:49,379
uh, for

1372
01:09:49,490 --> 01:09:49,500
I

1373
01:09:49,680 --> 01:09:51,450
say, carbon fibre will be six.

1374
01:09:52,879 --> 01:09:56,419
Uh, whereas if aluminium is 10, carbon fibre is six.

1375
01:09:56,830 --> 01:09:59,459
Titanium will be 20, steel will be 30

1376
01:10:00,500 --> 01:10:01,020
OK.

1377
01:10:02,310 --> 01:10:06,560
And also in terms of strength and stiffness, there is a very large, uh, varia

1378
01:10:06,779 --> 01:10:07,850
variation,

1379
01:10:08,509 --> 01:10:14,370
and you have like, uh, you can have carbon fibre, which is less stiff

1380
01:10:15,000 --> 01:10:16,169
than aluminium,

1381
01:10:17,270 --> 01:10:18,229
up to

1382
01:10:19,549 --> 01:10:22,169
about, um, three times

1383
01:10:23,040 --> 01:10:24,100
the stiffness of steel.

1384
01:10:24,939 --> 01:10:25,419
Wow.

1385
01:10:25,810 --> 01:10:29,080
And if you're gonna go on maybe more than three times, actually, uh,

1386
01:10:29,089 --> 01:10:31,080
maybe four times, uh,

1387
01:10:31,370 --> 01:10:33,359
depending on how you look at the numbers, you know,

1388
01:10:33,370 --> 01:10:36,140
if you look at just pure fibres over five times,

1389
01:10:36,459 --> 01:10:37,149
but, uh,

1390
01:10:37,500 --> 01:10:41,279
if you the moment you take the fibre, you make it into a composite,

1391
01:10:42,160 --> 01:10:46,069
you are because what we normally call carbon fibre. In reality, it is

1392
01:10:46,580 --> 01:10:50,620
what the word says carbon fibre. So it's like strings of material.

1393
01:10:50,629 --> 01:10:53,479
You cannot make much with strings. And if you're making rocks or

1394
01:10:53,589 --> 01:10:53,970
garments,

1395
01:10:56,129 --> 01:10:58,109
so what you do with that is

1396
01:10:58,259 --> 01:11:01,649
you're putting it into a matrix, as they call it with in effect,

1397
01:11:02,270 --> 01:11:06,229
uh, you know, in in the simple terms, you're painting it with a bit of glue

1398
01:11:07,000 --> 01:11:10,490
and you let the glue go off, so it holds the fibres in position.

1399
01:11:10,990 --> 01:11:14,109
So what we call in carbon fibre bikes nowadays is, uh,

1400
01:11:14,120 --> 01:11:16,560
primarily carbon fibre and epoxy resin

1401
01:11:16,950 --> 01:11:18,540
that actually holds the fibres together.

1402
01:11:19,600 --> 01:11:20,479
So

1403
01:11:20,629 --> 01:11:24,540
by the time you do this, if you put all the fibres in the same direction.

1404
01:11:24,959 --> 01:11:28,700
You're getting very good properties in the direction of the fibre,

1405
01:11:29,830 --> 01:11:30,359
but

1406
01:11:30,770 --> 01:11:34,950
90 degrees to the fibre. You're only getting the properties of the re in effect.

1407
01:11:35,410 --> 01:11:36,779
So imagine it

1408
01:11:36,910 --> 01:11:39,319
along the fibres, properties of steel

1409
01:11:40,569 --> 01:11:42,870
across the fibres, properties of plastic.

1410
01:11:44,819 --> 01:11:48,379
Of course, you cannot do much with this kind of material.

1411
01:11:48,390 --> 01:11:51,479
So that's why when what we call a carbon fibre,

1412
01:11:51,839 --> 01:11:55,250
usually there are multiple orientations of the

1413
01:11:55,259 --> 01:11:58,200
material that they going in different directions.

1414
01:11:58,990 --> 01:12:01,259
In the early days of carbon fibre,

1415
01:12:01,459 --> 01:12:04,689
the engineers they were using it almost like black alumi.

1416
01:12:05,509 --> 01:12:07,250
So they had, like equal

1417
01:12:07,439 --> 01:12:08,830
number of fibres on

1418
01:12:09,040 --> 01:12:12,779
0 90 plus 45 and minus 45.

1419
01:12:13,750 --> 01:12:17,299
It wasn't really significantly better than aluminium.

1420
01:12:17,310 --> 01:12:19,490
So then engineers, they got a bit more clever.

1421
01:12:19,899 --> 01:12:24,680
You do all your analysis and you put more on this direction and less on the other.

1422
01:12:25,220 --> 01:12:29,410
And this is really how today's bikes, they ending up being

1423
01:12:29,790 --> 01:12:31,890
lighter than aluminium.

1424
01:12:32,379 --> 01:12:35,580
If you were only doing them that you put the same number of fibres,

1425
01:12:35,589 --> 01:12:38,410
the same amount of fibres in every direction,

1426
01:12:38,770 --> 01:12:40,569
you will not really get anything lighter.

1427
01:12:42,140 --> 01:12:46,680
And then there is a whole science on how you mix in different fibres

1428
01:12:46,939 --> 01:12:49,450
and different grades of fibre that the

1429
01:12:49,950 --> 01:12:54,399
strength goes up or the stiffness goes up. Usually your carbon fibre,

1430
01:12:55,200 --> 01:12:57,000
if you remember or not, the other materials.

1431
01:12:57,009 --> 01:13:00,629
We said the strength varies, but the stiffness stays very similar.

1432
01:13:00,640 --> 01:13:01,569
It doesn't change that much,

1433
01:13:01,970 --> 01:13:05,350
whereas on the carbon fibre both the strength and the stiffness,

1434
01:13:05,359 --> 01:13:06,310
they vary quite a lot.

1435
01:13:07,009 --> 01:13:10,580
And you do have the high end bikes quite a few times. You may

1436
01:13:10,790 --> 01:13:14,299
hear that they're using more than one grade of material,

1437
01:13:14,709 --> 01:13:16,620
and they're putting stiffer grades where is

1438
01:13:16,629 --> 01:13:19,279
needed and different grades somewhere else.

1439
01:13:19,729 --> 01:13:24,859
And that is actually a sign of somebody who sat down and thought about it properly

1440
01:13:25,450 --> 01:13:29,000
and try to do something good. This is really how you make these extreme

1441
01:13:29,259 --> 01:13:30,569
lightweight bikes.

1442
01:13:30,580 --> 01:13:33,970
And they are like, I know 700 grammes for a frame and stuff like that. Yeah.

1443
01:13:35,149 --> 01:13:40,120
So where does the, um, I was reading, you know, the idea of

1444
01:13:41,209 --> 01:13:44,310
3D printing and additive manufacturing, is it

1445
01:13:44,540 --> 01:13:48,930
so that it sounds like carbon fibre is the perfect material? So where's the

1446
01:13:49,629 --> 01:13:53,220
yeah downsides or or where things could be improved?

1447
01:13:53,399 --> 01:13:53,689
Yeah,

1448
01:13:53,790 --> 01:13:54,500
So

1449
01:13:54,899 --> 01:13:57,620
let me go back a little bit of that.

1450
01:13:58,430 --> 01:14:04,799
So you make a a flat piece of steel or carbon fibre or aluminium or whatever you do.

1451
01:14:04,810 --> 01:14:05,490
Some testing

1452
01:14:07,049 --> 01:14:12,490
carbon fibre will probably come and win hands down on pretty much everything,

1453
01:14:12,500 --> 01:14:14,109
especially if it's in tension,

1454
01:14:15,129 --> 01:14:17,779
like one important point to remember

1455
01:14:18,089 --> 01:14:21,100
carbon fibre is pretty damn good in tension.

1456
01:14:22,120 --> 01:14:22,830
But

1457
01:14:22,979 --> 01:14:23,859
especially,

1458
01:14:23,870 --> 01:14:25,620
you need directional carbon fibre where you

1459
01:14:25,629 --> 01:14:27,430
have all the fibres going in one direction

1460
01:14:28,439 --> 01:14:30,140
is not very good in compression.

1461
01:14:31,259 --> 01:14:32,080
So,

1462
01:14:33,080 --> 01:14:35,140
uh, when you start making

1463
01:14:35,259 --> 01:14:35,450
AAA

1464
01:14:35,770 --> 01:14:38,419
bike frame that it takes

1465
01:14:38,970 --> 01:14:42,859
loads in quite a few different ways because you have the pedalling loads,

1466
01:14:43,069 --> 01:14:45,930
you have the loads. When you apply the brakes, you have different loads.

1467
01:14:45,939 --> 01:14:47,140
When you ordering,

1468
01:14:47,319 --> 01:14:49,959
you have different loads when you have your weight on the saddle,

1469
01:14:50,040 --> 01:14:52,660
as opposed to all you pedalling standing up and so on.

1470
01:14:53,040 --> 01:14:57,419
So you have to design the bike to be able to take loads in many different directions.

1471
01:14:58,339 --> 01:15:01,149
So you start having every tube

1472
01:15:01,640 --> 01:15:05,569
you need to have, like some fibres in this direction, that they do whatever they do.

1473
01:15:05,580 --> 01:15:08,830
But then when you have different direction, the the load in different directions,

1474
01:15:08,839 --> 01:15:09,839
they don't do very much

1475
01:15:10,660 --> 01:15:16,200
so This is why, for argument's sake, carbon fibre frames, they are not

1476
01:15:16,680 --> 01:15:17,959
400 grammes

1477
01:15:18,950 --> 01:15:21,680
because you have to carry the extra weight to

1478
01:15:21,790 --> 01:15:23,660
to counteract very different loads.

1479
01:15:24,419 --> 01:15:26,520
And these very extreme lightweight bikes,

1480
01:15:26,529 --> 01:15:31,390
they have primarily either round tubes or very nearly round tubes, like some stuff,

1481
01:15:32,009 --> 01:15:33,390
you know, slightly swish

1482
01:15:33,770 --> 01:15:35,080
tubes and stuff like that

1483
01:15:36,399 --> 01:15:39,770
carbon fibre. Also, when you start going around corners,

1484
01:15:40,370 --> 01:15:41,750
he doesn't like it very much

1485
01:15:42,229 --> 01:15:45,149
because what you have is you have,

1486
01:15:45,620 --> 01:15:48,189
uh how can I demonstrate this? Uh,

1487
01:15:48,399 --> 01:15:48,439
I

1488
01:15:48,729 --> 01:15:49,350
find

1489
01:15:49,819 --> 01:15:51,660
something like that.

1490
01:15:52,700 --> 01:15:53,959
So you have this.

1491
01:15:54,479 --> 01:15:57,839
This is just a normal book or you have all the different pages.

1492
01:15:58,759 --> 01:15:59,279
And

1493
01:15:59,589 --> 01:16:02,500
when you're pushing it and pulling it, not much is happening, OK?

1494
01:16:02,720 --> 01:16:05,339
When you do it and it goes around the corner,

1495
01:16:06,779 --> 01:16:10,040
if you have a force that is trying to open up this

1496
01:16:11,060 --> 01:16:11,410
you

1497
01:16:11,770 --> 01:16:15,979
I'm not doing it very well. Let me do it a bit better. Hopefully, this will work now

1498
01:16:16,490 --> 01:16:17,359
live demo.

1499
01:16:17,660 --> 01:16:20,750
So you do it like this and you try to open it. You can see

1500
01:16:21,799 --> 01:16:22,609
Ah yeah, yeah.

1501
01:16:23,399 --> 01:16:24,430
So this

1502
01:16:24,899 --> 01:16:26,500
is creating, uh,

1503
01:16:26,600 --> 01:16:30,450
every time you go around the corner and this is time to do that

1504
01:16:30,930 --> 01:16:32,479
is creating this.

1505
01:16:32,609 --> 01:16:35,109
What you call through thickness forces

1506
01:16:37,049 --> 01:16:38,350
and through thickness.

1507
01:16:38,629 --> 01:16:41,229
You only have the resin resisting it.

1508
01:16:42,500 --> 01:16:43,649
There are

1509
01:16:44,149 --> 01:16:47,939
3D stitched carbon fibres and so on. But

1510
01:16:48,160 --> 01:16:49,700
there are still a rarity.

1511
01:16:49,959 --> 01:16:54,279
It's It's a well known technology, probably more than 50 years old technology

1512
01:16:54,560 --> 01:16:57,080
but putting fibres through the thickness,

1513
01:16:58,350 --> 01:16:59,549
it is hardly ever used.

1514
01:17:00,470 --> 01:17:05,049
So because of that again, you have to carry extra weight.

1515
01:17:05,200 --> 01:17:09,509
So then your benefit from the carbon fibre comes down and

1516
01:17:09,520 --> 01:17:11,450
comes down and it comes down and it comes down.

1517
01:17:13,299 --> 01:17:15,919
Now where 3D printing is coming in

1518
01:17:16,220 --> 01:17:19,720
is you can do all sorts of weird and wonderful shapes.

1519
01:17:20,129 --> 01:17:22,359
You can also do internal structures.

1520
01:17:22,370 --> 01:17:26,759
Let's say one of the problems that, uh, we realised quite a few times in carbon fibre.

1521
01:17:27,729 --> 01:17:32,439
If you if you go to any modern bike, uh, lightweight carbon fibre bike,

1522
01:17:32,560 --> 01:17:36,709
you take the top tube and you pinch it like this. You will feel it moving

1523
01:17:37,600 --> 01:17:40,910
in the middle of the top tube or in the middle of the down tube. You do it like this.

1524
01:17:41,049 --> 01:17:42,109
You can feel it moving

1525
01:17:42,470 --> 01:17:44,169
because it's less than a millimetre thick.

1526
01:17:45,790 --> 01:17:47,979
This doesn't matter very much in the middle of the down

1527
01:17:48,089 --> 01:17:51,910
cube. But when you're going close to the corners where it needs to turn

1528
01:17:52,509 --> 01:17:53,890
the walls that do this.

1529
01:17:54,160 --> 01:17:57,129
So to counteract these, you're putting extra material and so on.

1530
01:17:57,930 --> 01:18:01,540
With 3D printing, you can have a wall that is, you know,

1531
01:18:01,549 --> 01:18:02,669
a structure which is like this.

1532
01:18:02,680 --> 01:18:04,509
And if when the walls try to do this

1533
01:18:04,990 --> 01:18:06,390
as you apply the forces,

1534
01:18:06,700 --> 01:18:08,339
you can have another wall there

1535
01:18:09,689 --> 01:18:10,060
when you say

1536
01:18:10,209 --> 01:18:12,490
3D printing just so people can start. What

1537
01:18:12,680 --> 01:18:15,000
what material are you speaking about? Now?

1538
01:18:15,470 --> 01:18:16,779
3D printing.

1539
01:18:17,000 --> 01:18:18,290
I mean, you can do it in plastic,

1540
01:18:18,299 --> 01:18:21,129
but you're not going to ride the plastic bike very far.

1541
01:18:21,970 --> 01:18:27,250
Uh, the most commonly used material is titanium.

1542
01:18:28,419 --> 01:18:33,890
Somehow, um, Ti-6Al-4V, as they call it, is six aluminium for

1543
01:18:34,200 --> 01:18:34,600
vanadium.

1544
01:18:35,080 --> 01:18:38,990
Uh, it is a material that actually is a very well known material.

1545
01:18:39,000 --> 01:18:40,439
It's a high strength material,

1546
01:18:41,410 --> 01:18:42,100
uh,

1547
01:18:42,250 --> 01:18:45,080
that you can actually 3D print pretty well.

1548
01:18:45,549 --> 01:18:49,029
So the vast majority of, um

1549
01:18:49,750 --> 01:18:49,770
uh,

1550
01:18:49,830 --> 01:18:54,970
the vast majority of 3D printed structures out there that they have to do with high

1551
01:18:55,189 --> 01:18:56,490
trenches. And so on

1552
01:18:56,720 --> 01:18:56,870
that

1553
01:18:57,080 --> 01:18:57,169
time,

1554
01:18:58,470 --> 01:18:59,629
and, uh,

1555
01:19:00,160 --> 01:19:02,589
again, when you have a thin wall like this.

1556
01:19:02,600 --> 01:19:07,330
We had this a number of times, Like, uh, because we do a lot of 3D printing in, uh,

1557
01:19:07,350 --> 01:19:08,799
in titanium these days.

1558
01:19:08,810 --> 01:19:12,089
Uh, we have this Sometimes that you have some

1559
01:19:12,470 --> 01:19:17,020
you have a tube that it may be whatever shape it is, and as you apply the forces,

1560
01:19:17,209 --> 01:19:18,009
it does that.

1561
01:19:19,709 --> 01:19:22,649
So to counteract this, you can put a mesh in there,

1562
01:19:22,660 --> 01:19:25,859
or you can put some extra beam or two or whatever it may be

1563
01:19:26,339 --> 01:19:27,709
and that can actually,

1564
01:19:28,459 --> 01:19:29,910
uh, eliminate this

1565
01:19:30,640 --> 01:19:35,660
to the extent that, uh uh, you can end up with a structure which is lighter

1566
01:19:36,169 --> 01:19:37,149
than the carbon fibre.

1567
01:19:38,040 --> 01:19:38,839
And,

1568
01:19:38,970 --> 01:19:38,979
uh,

1569
01:19:39,410 --> 01:19:41,500
when I first came across this,

1570
01:19:41,959 --> 01:19:43,259
I'll tell you a story.

1571
01:19:44,169 --> 01:19:46,189
Uh, which is go something like this.

1572
01:19:47,759 --> 01:19:50,859
We did some handlebars for British cycling for 2016.

1573
01:19:51,859 --> 01:19:56,759
Uh, British cycling came back and said, um, can we have a few more of those, please?

1574
01:19:57,109 --> 01:19:59,560
I think it was around 2018 if I remember correctly.

1575
01:20:01,359 --> 01:20:02,279
And, uh,

1576
01:20:02,290 --> 01:20:07,979
I said at the time the manufacturer of those candle bars is gone out of business,

1577
01:20:08,759 --> 01:20:10,149
so we couldn't do that.

1578
01:20:10,729 --> 01:20:12,930
So I said to them, Uh oh,

1579
01:20:13,169 --> 01:20:17,229
sorry. The guys are closed down, so it cannot be done.

1580
01:20:17,580 --> 01:20:17,589
Uh,

1581
01:20:17,609 --> 01:20:21,310
either we can try and find somebody else with starting a new

1582
01:20:21,319 --> 01:20:24,580
manufacturer is always difficult because there's a massive amount of detail.

1583
01:20:25,729 --> 01:20:28,870
Or we can 3D print them for you in the time if you want.

1584
01:20:29,479 --> 01:20:31,589
But don't expect it to be lighter

1585
01:20:31,879 --> 01:20:33,709
in the fact that I was telling them it's gonna be heavier.

1586
01:20:36,759 --> 01:20:38,189
So I thought, uh,

1587
01:20:38,540 --> 01:20:43,200
we cannot appear to be complete idiots over here. We need to try and do the best we can.

1588
01:20:43,959 --> 01:20:45,649
So we took the safe,

1589
01:20:45,750 --> 01:20:50,140
uh, modified it a little bit for some modifications they wanted, but not much.

1590
01:20:50,149 --> 01:20:52,649
Very little. The same was basically the same.

1591
01:20:54,279 --> 01:20:55,140
And, uh,

1592
01:20:57,879 --> 01:20:59,939
excuse me. So we modified the shape

1593
01:21:00,939 --> 01:21:04,839
and we tried to do everything we could with the analysis,

1594
01:21:05,669 --> 01:21:07,950
put the minimum amount of material everywhere.

1595
01:21:07,959 --> 01:21:10,930
Use a lot of these internal structures that I told you and so on

1596
01:21:12,089 --> 01:21:16,799
we print the thing, it comes out, and it was lighter than the carbon fibre handle bar.

1597
01:21:18,799 --> 01:21:20,979
I thought Oh, all right. OK, I wasn't expecting this.

1598
01:21:20,990 --> 01:21:26,350
Remember, by that time, I had 25 years plus experience in carbon fibre.

1599
01:21:26,750 --> 01:21:27,229
And

1600
01:21:27,919 --> 01:21:29,370
if you were asking me,

1601
01:21:29,830 --> 01:21:32,069
Can you make a part

1602
01:21:32,229 --> 01:21:34,890
lighter in titanium comparing to carbon fibre?

1603
01:21:35,649 --> 01:21:38,509
Straight answer is no. Forget about it. You just can't.

1604
01:21:38,520 --> 01:21:40,830
The material properties are just not there.

1605
01:21:41,589 --> 01:21:42,200
Uh,

1606
01:21:42,339 --> 01:21:46,370
but that was the first time that I started realising, Oh, there is something in it.

1607
01:21:47,669 --> 01:21:52,850
Since that time, we actually did quite a few handlebars of similar kind.

1608
01:21:53,640 --> 01:21:58,069
The most dramatic example that I have is for a time trial handle

1609
01:21:58,259 --> 01:21:58,290
bar,

1610
01:21:58,600 --> 01:22:00,540
You know, where you have the base bar

1611
01:22:00,770 --> 01:22:04,979
and the risers and the extensions and the arm caps

1612
01:22:05,390 --> 01:22:07,939
and, uh, also the computer arm and so on.

1613
01:22:09,049 --> 01:22:12,270
So there was this handlebar that goes for this rider.

1614
01:22:12,870 --> 01:22:16,509
They came in, and we just had to scan it to replicate the geometry.

1615
01:22:17,359 --> 01:22:18,180
Uh,

1616
01:22:18,430 --> 01:22:22,649
we scanned it and we start designing it. And all that stuff that handle bar was

1617
01:22:23,180 --> 01:22:27,759
1 kg and 100 grammes. They're quite heavy beasts. Those things,

1618
01:22:27,910 --> 01:22:31,580
because they have connections, they have bolts, they have this. They have that.

1619
01:22:31,589 --> 01:22:33,009
So all these things are great.

1620
01:22:33,709 --> 01:22:35,419
So we made a 3D-printed

1621
01:22:35,609 --> 01:22:39,649
titanium base bar and a set of extensions which they were actually removable,

1622
01:22:40,479 --> 01:22:41,419
and, uh,

1623
01:22:41,660 --> 01:22:46,240
the weight of that handlebar when we delivered it. That was for a road time trial.

1624
01:22:46,509 --> 01:22:46,569
Handle

1625
01:22:47,209 --> 01:22:48,020
the weight of the

1626
01:22:48,129 --> 01:22:50,549
handlebar when we deliver it with the computer arm,

1627
01:22:50,729 --> 01:22:52,689
including the extensions and everything else

1628
01:22:53,180 --> 01:22:55,620
was 670 grammes.

1629
01:22:55,979 --> 01:22:56,500
So

1630
01:22:56,779 --> 01:22:58,529
about 400 grammes lighter

1631
01:22:59,330 --> 01:23:01,870
and the lightest we made of that kind.

1632
01:23:02,270 --> 01:23:04,220
It goes below 600 grammes,

1633
01:23:05,080 --> 01:23:07,259
so it was like half a kilo light.

1634
01:23:08,509 --> 01:23:09,970
So the

1635
01:23:10,299 --> 01:23:11,620
improvement

1636
01:23:11,990 --> 01:23:13,439
on the weight front

1637
01:23:14,209 --> 01:23:18,979
it comes from partially the elimination of unnecessary bits

1638
01:23:20,359 --> 01:23:24,779
partially because of the customization. So you only keep the bits that you need

1639
01:23:25,459 --> 01:23:29,169
and partially because you can do internal structures.

1640
01:23:29,410 --> 01:23:31,160
That is very difficult to do it.

1641
01:23:31,459 --> 01:23:32,359
And also

1642
01:23:33,089 --> 01:23:35,189
you can design it on your computer today.

1643
01:23:35,669 --> 01:23:39,189
Put on the machine tomorrow. A couple of days later, it's out of the machine

1644
01:23:40,049 --> 01:23:43,310
and another couple of days later you have it on your bike.

1645
01:23:44,229 --> 01:23:44,290
So

1646
01:23:44,859 --> 01:23:44,879
to

1647
01:23:44,979 --> 01:23:45,229
do this,

1648
01:23:45,479 --> 01:23:47,879
if you try to do this on carbon fibre you're talking about,

1649
01:23:49,439 --> 01:23:50,120
so do you think this

1650
01:23:50,220 --> 01:23:51,970
is gonna be something? Then

1651
01:23:52,410 --> 01:23:55,540
that will start to become more mainstream because as far as I

1652
01:23:55,830 --> 01:23:57,149
understand, like a normal road,

1653
01:23:57,720 --> 01:24:00,430
you are still just seeing carbon fibre.

1654
01:24:01,160 --> 01:24:03,540
It's not 3D printed titanium. Is that

1655
01:24:03,640 --> 01:24:06,490
Is there a Is there a reason it could happen? Or is there some?

1656
01:24:07,890 --> 01:24:10,549
Yeah, I think. Ok, le Let's think of it this way.

1657
01:24:10,979 --> 01:24:11,470
Uh,

1658
01:24:11,629 --> 01:24:14,709
titanium is a material which is very commonly used Today

1659
01:24:16,229 --> 01:24:19,529
is not the only material in terms of structural parts.

1660
01:24:19,540 --> 01:24:23,819
There are other materials coming up like there are some high strength, aluminium

1661
01:24:24,089 --> 01:24:24,240
alloy

1662
01:24:24,859 --> 01:24:26,629
alloy—a material that we use called

1663
01:24:27,080 --> 01:24:28,580
Scalmalloy, which is a scandium–aluminium–

1664
01:24:28,879 --> 01:24:29,990
magnesium alloy.

1665
01:24:30,740 --> 01:24:33,509
Uh, so that's a high strength aluminium. And

1666
01:24:33,660 --> 01:24:37,040
there are other aluminums, but they are not actually as good.

1667
01:24:37,500 --> 01:24:38,080
Uh,

1668
01:24:38,259 --> 01:24:39,200
so

1669
01:24:39,819 --> 01:24:41,200
there are also plastics,

1670
01:24:42,109 --> 01:24:48,009
and actually they are commercially available components today that you can buy it.

1671
01:24:48,020 --> 01:24:51,709
It's not today, I think probably they're out for at least two years, maybe longer.

1672
01:24:52,270 --> 01:24:54,100
Which there are these 3D printed saddle.

1673
01:24:54,109 --> 01:24:57,720
So the saddle itself, it is more or less the normal one. But it's not.

1674
01:24:57,729 --> 01:25:00,160
Instead of having a spongy cover

1675
01:25:01,740 --> 01:25:02,669
and, uh uh,

1676
01:25:02,919 --> 01:25:07,100
sorry a spongy something on the top floor where you're sitting and then

1677
01:25:07,250 --> 01:25:08,500
let's call it leather cover.

1678
01:25:08,509 --> 01:25:10,819
It's not leather now, that's why let's call it leather cover

1679
01:25:10,939 --> 01:25:15,410
is the whole thing on the top is 3D printed in some sort of soft plastic.

1680
01:25:15,419 --> 01:25:16,390
And it's like a mesh.

1681
01:25:17,160 --> 01:25:20,830
There are at least two manufacturers. They do that, um,

1682
01:25:21,750 --> 01:25:24,299
Specialized do that, and I think Selle

1683
01:25:24,540 --> 01:25:25,209
Italia.

1684
01:25:25,859 --> 01:25:27,640
I’m not quite sure if it is Selle Italia.

1685
01:25:27,649 --> 01:25:30,879
I said it is at least one Italian manufacturer that is doing it.

1686
01:25:32,009 --> 01:25:36,029
And this is not new. This is at least two, maybe three years.

1687
01:25:36,430 --> 01:25:37,979
So there are already 3D printed

1688
01:25:38,569 --> 01:25:39,750
parts out there.

1689
01:25:40,609 --> 01:25:46,299
There are already small 3D printed parts. Uh, that, uh we did, uh, for Pinarello

1690
01:25:46,410 --> 01:25:49,069
in the past. Actually, the current

1691
01:25:49,680 --> 01:25:50,000
Pinarello

1692
01:25:50,910 --> 01:25:51,450
Dogma

1693
01:25:51,689 --> 01:25:52,540
F that you buy

1694
01:25:53,069 --> 01:25:55,229
the bits that are holding the saddle.

1695
01:25:56,169 --> 01:26:00,359
So you have the the seatpost, and you have the bits that they hold in the seat rails.

1696
01:26:00,509 --> 01:26:02,140
These are actually 3D printed,

1697
01:26:04,740 --> 01:26:06,200
so it's already out there

1698
01:26:06,890 --> 01:26:07,629
now

1699
01:26:08,270 --> 01:26:09,709
an entire frame,

1700
01:26:10,689 --> 01:26:12,069
an entire frame.

1701
01:26:12,250 --> 01:26:16,729
Um, I'm sure you are familiar with the bike that Filippo Ganna

1702
01:26:16,879 --> 01:26:19,660
rode in the Hour Record in 22.

1703
01:26:20,129 --> 01:26:20,620
Uh, the Pinarello Bolide

1704
01:26:21,000 --> 01:26:21,680
bike.

1705
01:26:21,959 --> 01:26:22,689
Uh,

1706
01:26:23,120 --> 01:26:24,390
to my knowledge,

1707
01:26:25,339 --> 01:26:27,259
I mean, we we did this bike for Pinarello,

1708
01:26:27,799 --> 01:26:29,279
and to my knowledge,

1709
01:26:30,589 --> 01:26:32,290
this is the first

1710
01:26:32,589 --> 01:26:34,890
fully 3D printed frame and fork,

1711
01:26:35,359 --> 01:26:37,689
but raced at the highest level.

1712
01:26:41,689 --> 01:26:43,259
So why was that?

1713
01:26:43,939 --> 01:26:44,160
So, I mean,

1714
01:26:44,370 --> 01:26:44,509
that

1715
01:26:44,879 --> 01:26:45,609
was a very

1716
01:26:45,979 --> 01:26:47,160
well, um,

1717
01:26:47,959 --> 01:26:50,560
I mean, him breaking, you know, the record was well seen,

1718
01:26:50,569 --> 01:26:52,229
but that's interesting on the technology side.

1719
01:26:52,240 --> 01:26:53,089
So why

1720
01:26:53,680 --> 01:26:55,660
Why did you go for 3D Printed?

1721
01:26:56,020 --> 01:26:56,040
Um,

1722
01:26:56,500 --> 01:26:56,950
there are similarities.

1723
01:27:00,080 --> 01:27:01,830
One of them. It was

1724
01:27:02,899 --> 01:27:09,089
at the time there was a new innovation that we, uh, found that it was these

1725
01:27:09,339 --> 01:27:14,439
circles, uh, which is, uh, saw the seatpost and the C tube. They have this zigzag

1726
01:27:14,649 --> 01:27:16,180
saw tooth leading edge.

1727
01:27:17,069 --> 01:27:17,859
Uh, at

1728
01:27:18,229 --> 01:27:22,770
the time when we realise that this actually can have a potential benefit,

1729
01:27:23,680 --> 01:27:25,819
the technology,

1730
01:27:26,180 --> 01:27:30,060
the technology to do it in carbon fibre wasn't quite there yet,

1731
01:27:30,500 --> 01:27:33,620
so there was no I. I don't say it cannot be done,

1732
01:27:34,319 --> 01:27:36,100
but it needed some development.

1733
01:27:36,200 --> 01:27:39,339
And when we found this with, um, I don't know,

1734
01:27:39,350 --> 01:27:41,859
less than three months ago for the world record,

1735
01:27:43,000 --> 01:27:46,899
there was no time to develop the technology

1736
01:27:47,149 --> 01:27:48,770
into the manufacturing

1737
01:27:48,950 --> 01:27:50,459
and put it on the starting line.

1738
01:27:51,220 --> 01:27:54,080
So that was part of the reason. So

1739
01:27:54,529 --> 01:28:00,879
the 3D printing was used over there because it could enable this sawtooth pattern.

1740
01:28:02,950 --> 01:28:07,169
Uh, I'm sure that carbon fibre uh, can do that at some point soon.

1741
01:28:07,620 --> 01:28:09,979
Uh, if I'm not mistaken, Pinarello

1742
01:28:10,509 --> 01:28:11,750
they already offer a seed

1743
01:28:11,930 --> 01:28:12,259
post

1744
01:28:12,500 --> 01:28:14,209
that is carbon fibre with that pattern.

1745
01:28:14,939 --> 01:28:20,399
And then you have I don't know what is happening with the frame, but for the frame,

1746
01:28:20,410 --> 01:28:23,250
the ones with the show tooth pattern,

1747
01:28:23,529 --> 01:28:24,490
uh, they are actually

1748
01:28:24,700 --> 01:28:25,169
printed.

1749
01:28:26,250 --> 01:28:28,589
Uh, so in that particular case,

1750
01:28:28,600 --> 01:28:31,950
the time element was important because short period of time,

1751
01:28:32,990 --> 01:28:33,399
Uh,

1752
01:28:33,410 --> 01:28:37,100
the being able to do it was also

1753
01:28:37,109 --> 01:28:40,189
important because the carbon fibre technology at the time

1754
01:28:40,450 --> 01:28:42,000
wasn't quite well developed.

1755
01:28:42,810 --> 01:28:45,029
If we had another year, I'm sure we could do it.

1756
01:28:45,529 --> 01:28:48,870
And, uh, also, if you look at the overall budget,

1757
01:28:49,729 --> 01:28:50,819
how much

1758
01:28:51,270 --> 01:28:52,350
will it cost

1759
01:28:53,359 --> 01:28:54,129
to

1760
01:28:54,899 --> 01:28:58,799
design the bike design? The bike was more or less the same, but then you have to do

1761
01:28:59,240 --> 01:29:02,040
the stress analysis again. Let's call it more or less the same.

1762
01:29:02,479 --> 01:29:04,850
But then you have on the carbon bike,

1763
01:29:05,009 --> 01:29:10,000
you have to design and manufacture a big metal mould.

1764
01:29:11,259 --> 01:29:14,229
This will have both cost and time implication.

1765
01:29:14,950 --> 01:29:19,850
So we will have a fair few thousands of pounds for the mould and about a month

1766
01:29:20,120 --> 01:29:20,879
to make it

1767
01:29:21,200 --> 01:29:21,850
so

1768
01:29:22,319 --> 01:29:26,970
you take this one month, and it completely disappears from your your schedule.

1769
01:29:27,689 --> 01:29:31,080
And, uh, you also had the money spent on this one point.

1770
01:29:31,640 --> 01:29:36,799
So if you were putting together all the budget that it was, uh, spent

1771
01:29:37,220 --> 01:29:38,950
for the 3D printed frame,

1772
01:29:39,750 --> 01:29:43,120
it was very comparable to the one

1773
01:29:43,310 --> 01:29:46,850
that it would be spent if it was carbon fibre

1774
01:29:48,680 --> 01:29:49,660
minus

1775
01:29:49,870 --> 01:29:53,240
one month minus 4 to 6 weeks

1776
01:29:53,370 --> 01:29:54,020
of time.

1777
01:29:55,140 --> 01:29:55,649
So

1778
01:29:55,830 --> 01:29:59,609
money wasn't very much of a difference on the overall scheme of things

1779
01:29:59,939 --> 01:30:01,290
for the number of bikes.

1780
01:30:02,040 --> 01:30:03,939
Uh, the time element,

1781
01:30:04,180 --> 01:30:06,259
uh, was also significantly better.

1782
01:30:06,580 --> 01:30:10,529
And, uh, at the time, you could do this with 3D printing. You couldn’t do it with carbon.

1783
01:30:12,020 --> 01:30:16,770
OK, so this was, um one of the question I had for you was,

1784
01:30:18,359 --> 01:30:21,750
and I guess this goes to more where things may go in the future. But

1785
01:30:22,229 --> 01:30:28,020
the work that, you know we did at least the suggestion I got was any game you have

1786
01:30:28,470 --> 01:30:33,169
is ultimately very dependent on the rider because they contribute so much.

1787
01:30:34,000 --> 01:30:36,299
And if you just produce a bike,

1788
01:30:38,029 --> 01:30:41,509
I mean, as far as I'm aware, if you go on a website now with any manufacturer,

1789
01:30:41,520 --> 01:30:43,640
you're basically picking the size of

1790
01:30:43,790 --> 01:30:43,919
it.

1791
01:30:44,419 --> 01:30:47,919
And maybe you can change the width of the handlebars potentially.

1792
01:30:48,399 --> 01:30:50,450
But do you see that with

1793
01:30:50,620 --> 01:30:51,899
things like

1794
01:30:52,160 --> 01:30:53,609
3D printing or

1795
01:30:53,859 --> 01:30:56,370
other technologies that we could start to,

1796
01:30:57,229 --> 01:30:57,750
I don't know,

1797
01:30:58,359 --> 01:31:01,020
customised the bit more at a more mass level. Yeah, I

1798
01:31:03,750 --> 01:31:09,169
think, uh, the the time of mass customization is coming, and it cannot.

1799
01:31:09,180 --> 01:31:12,600
Currently as we know it, it can only be realised with 3D printing.

1800
01:31:13,830 --> 01:31:14,729
So

1801
01:31:15,200 --> 01:31:19,600
I spoke with, uh uh, there there is a particular company that, uh,

1802
01:31:19,930 --> 01:31:22,250
they have a software that, uh,

1803
01:31:23,180 --> 01:31:26,919
if we manage to put the money together to develop it, we should be able to,

1804
01:31:27,770 --> 01:31:28,970
in theory, at least

1805
01:31:30,569 --> 01:31:33,589
take a video from the television or you film somebody with

1806
01:31:33,600 --> 01:31:35,779
your phone or take a few pictures with your phone.

1807
01:31:35,790 --> 01:31:37,629
You put it on that piece of software

1808
01:31:38,149 --> 01:31:41,910
and it will make a frame to fit your size.

1809
01:31:42,680 --> 01:31:44,419
It can even do, in theory,

1810
01:31:44,430 --> 01:31:48,060
the stress analysis to put the material in the right positions,

1811
01:31:48,319 --> 01:31:51,859
segment it in the right way and put it on the build plate,

1812
01:31:52,000 --> 01:31:54,220
and you can click the button to go on the machine,

1813
01:31:54,479 --> 01:31:57,379
print it, come on. The other side. Assemble it. And here it is.

1814
01:31:57,569 --> 01:32:00,540
And you can have individually tailored

1815
01:32:00,990 --> 01:32:06,060
frames, forks, handlebars or whatever that individual might need to be.

1816
01:32:06,879 --> 01:32:11,250
I think this is still a little bit. Although the technology exists today.

1817
01:32:12,680 --> 01:32:13,700
I know

1818
01:32:13,850 --> 01:32:16,200
how we can do that today.

1819
01:32:17,549 --> 01:32:20,850
Of course. Where is the money and the time to do that?

1820
01:32:21,569 --> 01:32:25,040
So the technology is there is a matter of, uh,

1821
01:32:25,049 --> 01:32:27,470
somebody having the willingness to go and do it.

1822
01:32:27,680 --> 01:32:30,979
And, of course, it's not gonna go from nothing to here it is.

1823
01:32:31,370 --> 01:32:34,959
It will have probably the development. Gradual. Gradual, Gradual.

1824
01:32:35,060 --> 01:32:38,509
But this is happening already. I mean, we already manufacturing.

1825
01:32:39,040 --> 01:32:39,669
Uh

1826
01:32:40,439 --> 01:32:42,680
uh, 3D print 4 3D print frames.

1827
01:32:42,810 --> 01:32:45,020
Actually, we just assembled one today,

1828
01:32:46,049 --> 01:32:49,040
uh, which, uh, you will see it in the Olympics.

1829
01:32:49,509 --> 01:32:50,459
And, uh,

1830
01:32:50,890 --> 01:32:51,799
then

1831
01:32:52,299 --> 01:32:56,640
now, taking this technology and spreading it out is entirely possible.

1832
01:32:57,040 --> 01:32:58,359
Uh, and I think,

1833
01:32:58,560 --> 01:33:00,640
how long will that be? I think

1834
01:33:00,810 --> 01:33:05,970
we will probably see more and more of this technology of the highest level in the next

1835
01:33:06,160 --> 01:33:07,560
45 years.

1836
01:33:08,390 --> 01:33:09,450
And, uh,

1837
01:33:09,720 --> 01:33:11,640
we probably gonna see.

1838
01:33:12,089 --> 01:33:14,129
I wouldn't say down to everyday bikes,

1839
01:33:14,259 --> 01:33:18,169
but I'm sure we're gonna see more to the high end bikes.

1840
01:33:18,709 --> 01:33:22,649
Maybe even in the next four or five years. I'm not gonna be surprised at all.

1841
01:33:22,660 --> 01:33:24,479
I mean, if you only look today

1842
01:33:25,810 --> 01:33:26,209
on,

1843
01:33:26,950 --> 01:33:32,180
you know, the idea with the wide seatstays and so on, which is not that new.

1844
01:33:32,189 --> 01:33:33,080
Actually,

1845
01:33:33,250 --> 01:33:35,810
we actually did something like this. One of the,

1846
01:33:36,029 --> 01:33:37,930
uh, patents, Uh, that, uh,

1847
01:33:37,939 --> 01:33:40,779
this patent application was referring to was some

1848
01:33:40,790 --> 01:33:43,939
work that we did with the original secret squirrel

1849
01:33:44,109 --> 01:33:44,569
club

1850
01:33:44,990 --> 01:33:47,200
sometime around 2008.

1851
01:33:47,540 --> 01:33:51,410
But at the time, the regulations, they were not really allowing this.

1852
01:33:51,899 --> 01:33:52,759
So a

1853
01:33:53,060 --> 01:33:56,520
a lot of these things, the stop is UCI regulations.

1854
01:33:56,910 --> 01:33:59,649
So now, with the 3D printing,

1855
01:34:00,500 --> 01:34:06,040
we know that interactions between bike and rider are actually very important.

1856
01:34:07,529 --> 01:34:11,770
If we only look at it from an aerodynamics perspective, can we do something, uh,

1857
01:34:11,879 --> 01:34:17,100
individualistic individual per rider? Yes, we can. How are you going to do it?

1858
01:34:18,470 --> 01:34:19,919
3D printing completely leads

1859
01:34:20,149 --> 01:34:21,520
itself for that.

1860
01:34:22,240 --> 01:34:24,029
So that is the way to do it.

1861
01:34:24,100 --> 01:34:27,830
You're not going to make a mould to go and make one of another M to make one off.

1862
01:34:29,419 --> 01:34:31,089
So and then from there,

1863
01:34:31,640 --> 01:34:32,990
the Holy Grail is

1864
01:34:33,509 --> 01:34:35,129
you're making the bike

1865
01:34:36,939 --> 01:34:38,339
for that rider

1866
01:34:39,250 --> 01:34:43,560
for specifically, meaning for the amount of power that rider is producing

1867
01:34:43,750 --> 01:34:45,240
and the weight of this rider.

1868
01:34:45,930 --> 01:34:47,229
Because right now,

1869
01:34:47,529 --> 01:34:49,319
the bikes they have to be

1870
01:34:50,529 --> 01:34:54,709
design and test it to a is a standard, which is a good thing.

1871
01:34:55,500 --> 01:34:57,040
But that is a standard,

1872
01:34:57,259 --> 01:34:57,560
Uh,

1873
01:35:00,379 --> 01:35:02,279
that I understand that assumes

1874
01:35:03,020 --> 01:35:03,490
a,

1875
01:35:04,379 --> 01:35:06,439
um a certain amount of power

1876
01:35:06,859 --> 01:35:07,640
and weight.

1877
01:35:09,029 --> 01:35:12,209
So which it is probably OK for a

1878
01:35:12,770 --> 01:35:16,890
70 kg rider or an 80 kg rider or 100 kg rider.

1879
01:35:17,330 --> 01:35:20,970
But when you're gonna have a 60 kg rider, a 50 kg rider,

1880
01:35:21,609 --> 01:35:24,830
you carry more weight because you need to pass the standard,

1881
01:35:26,009 --> 01:35:26,660
which

1882
01:35:26,830 --> 01:35:29,379
from the safety perspective, is a good thing.

1883
01:35:29,390 --> 01:35:33,299
Because at the end of the day, you cannot really have an infinite number.

1884
01:35:35,140 --> 01:35:39,189
Can we get a bit more clever and classified a bit better?

1885
01:35:40,540 --> 01:35:41,240
Maybe.

1886
01:35:42,890 --> 01:35:45,060
OK, so you mean that in theory,

1887
01:35:45,520 --> 01:35:46,950
if I was to put in,

1888
01:35:47,529 --> 01:35:52,189
you know, I weigh this amount, I generate this much power maximum on average,

1889
01:35:52,419 --> 01:35:55,640
you could go and design me a bike. That probably would be

1890
01:35:56,229 --> 01:35:59,649
lighter or better performing, because it would be completely

1891
01:35:59,759 --> 01:36:00,000
custom

1892
01:36:00,160 --> 01:36:02,500
for me rather than just a generic human.

1893
01:36:03,870 --> 01:36:05,270
We are already doing this,

1894
01:36:06,569 --> 01:36:09,100
Uh, probably for the last 20 years or so,

1895
01:36:09,549 --> 01:36:14,069
but it's going the other way because the the standard,

1896
01:36:14,899 --> 01:36:15,200
the

1897
01:36:15,330 --> 01:36:18,120
ISO standard is primarily for a road bike.

1898
01:36:19,870 --> 01:36:22,419
So a road bike? Um,

1899
01:36:22,689 --> 01:36:26,049
it doesn't really see the some of the forces that you have

1900
01:36:26,290 --> 01:36:28,930
the big 100 kg sprinters

1901
01:36:29,410 --> 01:36:30,649
that they can produce.

1902
01:36:30,850 --> 01:36:31,569
So

1903
01:36:32,589 --> 01:36:33,899
what we actually do

1904
01:36:34,100 --> 01:36:36,060
is we use the

1905
01:36:36,439 --> 01:36:37,779
road standard

1906
01:36:37,910 --> 01:36:38,740
for the road.

1907
01:36:39,279 --> 01:36:41,540
We use the the road standard.

1908
01:36:42,759 --> 01:36:44,549
Excuse me for some, even on

1909
01:36:44,649 --> 01:36:45,220
the track.

1910
01:36:46,910 --> 01:36:49,930
Then we're using 1.5 times the road standard

1911
01:36:50,370 --> 01:36:52,390
for some other events on the track

1912
01:36:52,520 --> 01:36:53,529
and double

1913
01:36:54,029 --> 01:36:54,370
the

1914
01:36:54,490 --> 01:36:55,229
is a standard

1915
01:36:55,720 --> 01:36:57,229
for the big sprinters.

1916
01:36:57,330 --> 01:36:59,770
Because when you have a 100 kg sprinter

1917
01:37:00,180 --> 01:37:03,879
that is producing over 2,500 watts on the standing start,

1918
01:37:04,520 --> 01:37:07,100
it is not the same as, say,

1919
01:37:07,620 --> 01:37:10,250
a 60 kg rider that is pedalling alone.

1920
01:37:11,049 --> 01:37:11,660
OK,

1921
01:37:11,790 --> 01:37:14,060
so we are already doing it towards the upper

1922
01:37:14,069 --> 01:37:18,069
level to counteract the kind of forces that uh

1923
01:37:18,250 --> 01:37:19,120
uh the world

1924
01:37:19,229 --> 01:37:20,629
class riders are producing.

1925
01:37:21,029 --> 01:37:25,319
But, uh, when you gonna go down for argument's sake,

1926
01:37:25,459 --> 01:37:29,229
you have lightweight riders and so on. They don't produce that much power.

1927
01:37:29,879 --> 01:37:32,629
They are ending up like carrying a bit of extra weight.

1928
01:37:33,620 --> 01:37:36,009
And how much is that extra weight? Probably not.

1929
01:37:36,020 --> 01:37:39,250
Huge amount, Probably, I don't know around a kilo or so.

1930
01:37:40,270 --> 01:37:42,899
So could you do it better? Yes.

1931
01:37:44,339 --> 01:37:49,919
The amount of money and time and effort you need to spend is pretty large

1932
01:37:51,399 --> 01:37:54,870
because somebody has to build this technology.

1933
01:37:55,080 --> 01:37:57,950
And somebody Not only has somebody has to build this technology,

1934
01:37:57,959 --> 01:37:59,390
somebody has to test it

1935
01:38:00,270 --> 01:38:03,399
and guarantee that rider, that lightweight rider.

1936
01:38:03,410 --> 01:38:06,649
But yes, Although you are lighter and the bike is lighter,

1937
01:38:07,100 --> 01:38:08,240
you are OK on it.

1938
01:38:09,419 --> 01:38:12,770
And of course, the responsibility for something like this is very large.

1939
01:38:13,350 --> 01:38:17,350
Because if something goes wrong and then whose fault it is and so on,

1940
01:38:17,540 --> 01:38:19,569
you really have to have that

1941
01:38:20,020 --> 01:38:21,160
Well guarded.

1942
01:38:21,479 --> 01:38:22,629
So, uh,

1943
01:38:23,180 --> 01:38:26,049
to do this, I think going down

1944
01:38:27,310 --> 01:38:29,970
I cannot see that happening in the foreseeable future.

1945
01:38:31,459 --> 01:38:32,319
So, um,

1946
01:38:32,689 --> 01:38:35,330
I, I had one last question for you,

1947
01:38:35,629 --> 01:38:37,240
and you don't have to give.

1948
01:38:37,629 --> 01:38:43,080
I'm gonna purposely make this a longer time period to get away from you, giving away

1949
01:38:43,620 --> 01:38:45,689
the details of the next bike. So

1950
01:38:45,819 --> 01:38:49,279
if you look back. So, W, when are we recording? It's 2024 now.

1951
01:38:49,609 --> 01:38:51,149
So 2014.

1952
01:38:51,720 --> 01:38:53,970
If you looked at the bike in 2014,

1953
01:38:54,220 --> 01:38:58,279
it was like a tube handle bar. I think the cables were still showing it.

1954
01:38:58,290 --> 01:39:02,720
If you look at it now, compared to the bikes, that it looks pretty basic, doesn't it?

1955
01:39:03,419 --> 01:39:06,919
What do you think the bike will look like in 2034?

1956
01:39:08,350 --> 01:39:09,540
Well, that's an interesting one.

1957
01:39:10,450 --> 01:39:14,640
I think this mass customization we were talking about it will be there by then.

1958
01:39:15,799 --> 01:39:20,299
Uh, maybe not the entire bike, but definitely, uh, more,

1959
01:39:20,910 --> 01:39:25,299
um, custom, things like, you know, as I said, these saddles, you can go and buy them.

1960
01:39:25,819 --> 01:39:28,490
I'm not gonna be surprised if these manufacturers,

1961
01:39:28,500 --> 01:39:31,020
at some point soon they're gonna start offering a custom,

1962
01:39:31,419 --> 01:39:32,140
Um,

1963
01:39:32,700 --> 01:39:36,419
saddle for you know, the way you're riding the bike and all that.

1964
01:39:36,950 --> 01:39:40,379
Uh, so I definitely see mass customization.

1965
01:39:41,180 --> 01:39:46,200
The major factor that actually changes the bike significantly

1966
01:39:46,750 --> 01:39:48,149
is the regulations.

1967
01:39:48,919 --> 01:39:54,100
If for argument's sake, UCI is gonna make a decision, is going to say,

1968
01:39:54,979 --> 01:39:55,750
let's

1969
01:39:56,549 --> 01:40:01,169
change the regulations. And I don't know that tube saves. It can be whatever you want

1970
01:40:02,020 --> 01:40:05,120
or the or the wheel size can be whatever you want.

1971
01:40:05,299 --> 01:40:07,959
This will have a huge effect

1972
01:40:09,629 --> 01:40:11,700
if the regulations around the sport

1973
01:40:11,819 --> 01:40:15,080
be careful Over here. We're talking about like a high end sport,

1974
01:40:16,180 --> 01:40:17,850
so it's controlled by regulations.

1975
01:40:17,859 --> 01:40:21,529
OK, if it is not that and you don't have regulations, it's a different ball

1976
01:40:21,660 --> 01:40:21,919
game.

1977
01:40:22,709 --> 01:40:26,669
But if it is controlled by regulations, the regulations,

1978
01:40:26,680 --> 01:40:29,500
they have a huge impact on how the bikes they look like

1979
01:40:30,250 --> 01:40:34,799
to a very significant extent. The bikes, they look like the way they do today

1980
01:40:35,490 --> 01:40:37,109
because of the regulations.

1981
01:40:37,799 --> 01:40:41,669
So if the regulations they do not change

1982
01:40:43,540 --> 01:40:47,399
I other than the 3D printing like bringing in some

1983
01:40:47,810 --> 01:40:49,490
some I wouldn't call it revolutionary.

1984
01:40:49,660 --> 01:40:51,799
In reality, there is hardly ever a revolution.

1985
01:40:52,339 --> 01:40:54,600
OK, in reality, it's an evolution.

1986
01:40:55,390 --> 01:40:59,060
Somebody decided to make the wheel and make I know a car,

1987
01:40:59,069 --> 01:41:00,669
and then somebody put two wheels in front of

1988
01:41:00,680 --> 01:41:02,549
the other with another stick and start riding it,

1989
01:41:02,779 --> 01:41:04,169
and then you call it the bike

1990
01:41:04,750 --> 01:41:05,689
and, uh

1991
01:41:05,890 --> 01:41:06,770
but, uh,

1992
01:41:08,270 --> 01:41:09,870
if the regulations that don't change,

1993
01:41:09,879 --> 01:41:12,810
I think 3D printing it can bring the customization

1994
01:41:13,109 --> 01:41:17,850
both in aerodynamics and in comfort and in functionality. So That's three or two.

1995
01:41:18,580 --> 01:41:20,209
Uh, so

1996
01:41:21,229 --> 01:41:23,950
that definitely will come from the 3D reading.

1997
01:41:24,129 --> 01:41:26,080
If everything else stays the same,

1998
01:41:26,620 --> 01:41:27,529
uh, I

1999
01:41:27,819 --> 01:41:32,799
cannot see myself Aerodynamics. I think we beat about the bush quite a lot.

2000
01:41:32,990 --> 01:41:37,180
Uh, can it be better? Yes. Can it be significantly better?

2001
01:41:38,319 --> 01:41:38,919
Maybe

2002
01:41:39,910 --> 01:41:41,250
so. That's interesting what you say.

2003
01:41:41,259 --> 01:41:45,589
So, yeah, I This goes, I guess full circle to my first question, which is

2004
01:41:45,939 --> 01:41:49,850
I guess you're right. Like the bike that I'm looking at here or most people have

2005
01:41:50,209 --> 01:41:55,740
that sort of like forks and handlebar and tube is essentially because

2006
01:41:55,979 --> 01:41:59,990
all the bike manufacturers wanna build a bike that a team could also

2007
01:42:00,000 --> 01:42:02,549
race cos I guess it's marketing and all the rest of it.

2008
01:42:02,870 --> 01:42:06,129
So you're saying if it keeps the way it is, it's largely gonna be the same.

2009
01:42:06,140 --> 01:42:08,410
But I guess if they just totally said, Well, you could have

2010
01:42:09,299 --> 01:42:12,750
a fork with, you know, any cross-sectional area, the tube,

2011
01:42:13,089 --> 01:42:16,020
I guess. Then it's like an open design space. So

2012
01:42:16,319 --> 01:42:20,470
maybe the final final question is, if it was an open design space,

2013
01:42:21,319 --> 01:42:23,700
could you see it being dramatically,

2014
01:42:24,479 --> 01:42:26,560
you know, more aerodynamic lighter.

2015
01:42:26,910 --> 01:42:29,609
Has anybody done that? You know, like it just total

2016
01:42:30,069 --> 01:42:31,330
free for all design.

2017
01:42:31,990 --> 01:42:32,279
Yeah.

2018
01:42:32,290 --> 01:42:37,970
I mean, you can actually take a good glimpse of that, uh, for the early to mid nineties

2019
01:42:38,959 --> 01:42:44,370
when, in the early to mid-nineties, the UCI removed the regulation about the frame,

2020
01:42:44,839 --> 01:42:49,569
there were—the Lotus frame is, the Lotus bike is the most famous one.

2021
01:42:49,870 --> 01:42:53,129
But there was no end of variant of that

2022
01:42:53,310 --> 01:42:54,419
from the

2023
01:42:54,899 --> 01:43:00,600
Pinarello Espada to the Battaglin bike that they made to the

2024
01:43:01,140 --> 01:43:06,259
Zipp bike. The Americans made Softride or I can't remember how many

2025
01:43:06,790 --> 01:43:08,290
I mean is

2026
01:43:08,410 --> 01:43:13,370
is amazing in a small number of years because this era lasted between

2027
01:43:13,640 --> 01:43:14,319
about

2028
01:43:14,549 --> 01:43:18,080
’92, when we saw the Boardman bike.

2029
01:43:18,089 --> 01:43:20,009
You know, the Lotus bike that Chris Boardman rode,

2030
01:43:20,620 --> 01:43:22,120
to about

2031
01:43:22,500 --> 01:43:23,580
97

2032
01:43:24,299 --> 01:43:26,680
when UCI came out and said no more.

2033
01:43:27,850 --> 01:43:29,910
So we talk about five years because,

2034
01:43:30,040 --> 01:43:32,529
yes, the rules, they changed before 92.

2035
01:43:32,540 --> 01:43:36,009
But most people that they didn't either didn't understand it or

2036
01:43:36,229 --> 01:43:38,930
they didn't bother doing anything because everything was already done.

2037
01:43:38,939 --> 01:43:41,549
So the only glaring example was a lot to spike.

2038
01:43:42,250 --> 01:43:45,229
So when everybody saw you can do something different,

2039
01:43:45,589 --> 01:43:49,299
everybody started doing something different. And in five short years

2040
01:43:49,839 --> 01:43:54,919
there were the huge, huge variation. There was this but a clean bike. No, the tells

2041
01:43:55,040 --> 01:43:57,430
they made, they had the front wheel. I don't know if you ever saw it,

2042
01:43:57,930 --> 01:43:58,430
but

2043
01:43:58,930 --> 01:44:03,419
you have the tyre, and then it goes more or less at the width of the tyre.

2044
01:44:03,430 --> 01:44:06,470
And then it goes a huge ball in the middle

2045
01:44:07,200 --> 01:44:10,740
before it goes down again. So the fork comes down and

2046
01:44:11,399 --> 01:44:15,740
it opens up, I think, to about 250 millimetres wide or something like this.

2047
01:44:15,750 --> 01:44:18,790
It's literally a round ball in the middle of the week.

2048
01:44:20,229 --> 01:44:22,450
Was that better? What? What? What was that?

2049
01:44:23,750 --> 01:44:23,979
Yeah,

2050
01:44:26,069 --> 01:44:27,979
I don't know. But there were a lot of these.

2051
01:44:27,990 --> 01:44:33,020
A lot of those and this They only came in this just five years

2052
01:44:34,240 --> 01:44:37,850
of opening up the the regulations between in effect, OK, the rules.

2053
01:44:37,859 --> 01:44:39,459
They opened up before 92

2054
01:44:39,680 --> 01:44:43,109
but ’92 is when everybody got a good sniff of it, when, uh, Boardman

2055
01:44:43,310 --> 01:44:44,620
turned up with this Lotus bike

2056
01:44:45,259 --> 01:44:46,970
and then it was, uh

2057
01:44:47,080 --> 01:44:50,169
uh, I think it was spring ’97 that the UCI came out

2058
01:44:50,180 --> 01:44:54,479
and said the regulations they changed from the first of January 2000.

2059
01:44:54,600 --> 01:44:56,549
So in effect in that time, we know

2060
01:44:56,799 --> 01:44:59,149
there were no end of weird and wonderful things.

2061
01:44:59,259 --> 01:45:02,470
So if there was no regulations Oh, absolutely.

2062
01:45:02,770 --> 01:45:02,970
And

2063
01:45:03,580 --> 01:45:04,279
before that,

2064
01:45:04,479 --> 01:45:05,759
would you like it to be

2065
01:45:06,189 --> 01:45:06,879
absolutely.

2066
01:45:08,149 --> 01:45:08,500
Oh, yeah.

2067
01:45:08,600 --> 01:45:09,049
Oh, yeah.

2068
01:45:11,209 --> 01:45:12,049
Oh, I'd love that.

2069
01:45:12,879 --> 01:45:15,129
It it It feels almost that, um,

2070
01:45:15,390 --> 01:45:17,939
that, like this is like the analogy with Formula One. I guess

2071
01:45:18,129 --> 01:45:20,069
there's always this tension between

2072
01:45:20,299 --> 01:45:24,740
we just want it to be about racing. And I guess a cycling equivalent would be

2073
01:45:25,109 --> 01:45:27,750
Everybody should have the same bike. It's just about the human

2074
01:45:28,100 --> 01:45:31,270
then versus the innovation of the bike itself

2075
01:45:31,799 --> 01:45:34,589
and how it could translate to everybody on the street,

2076
01:45:34,870 --> 01:45:35,370
you know?

2077
01:45:36,379 --> 01:45:39,600
But I have a good point, I. I think it's a good point on that.

2078
01:45:40,200 --> 01:45:43,060
You remember that? The Hour Record,

2079
01:45:43,479 --> 01:45:45,149
uh, used to be,

2080
01:45:45,470 --> 01:45:45,500
uh,

2081
01:45:45,629 --> 01:45:51,220
Boardman did the Hour Record in ’96—whatever he did it—uh,

2082
01:45:52,040 --> 01:45:54,370
um at the time 56 something.

2083
01:45:55,109 --> 01:45:56,169
And, uh

2084
01:45:57,600 --> 01:45:59,229
then they changed the regulations.

2085
01:45:59,240 --> 01:46:00,229
And in effect, they said,

2086
01:46:00,240 --> 01:46:03,640
you have to race with the 1970s bike that Eddy Merckx raced,

2087
01:46:04,700 --> 01:46:06,890
which is fine. Eddy Merckx raced with that.

2088
01:46:06,899 --> 01:46:10,129
But it was the highest possible technology of the time.

2089
01:46:10,339 --> 01:46:10,689
Eddy Merckx,

2090
01:46:10,839 --> 01:46:11,819
He didn't race

2091
01:46:12,189 --> 01:46:14,629
with a bike from 19 thirties or with a penny-farthing.

2092
01:46:14,879 --> 01:46:19,299
He raced with whatever it was the pinnacle of technology of that time.

2093
01:46:20,350 --> 01:46:21,529
And, uh

2094
01:46:22,279 --> 01:46:24,229
so the UCI changed the regulations.

2095
01:46:24,240 --> 01:46:27,500
They say you have to raise With the 19 seventies spike in effect, they specified the

2096
01:46:27,779 --> 01:46:30,339
the diameter of the tubes and the handle bars

2097
01:46:30,350 --> 01:46:32,180
and the spokes and the wings and all that.

2098
01:46:34,029 --> 01:46:38,970
I worked for the UCI for about a year and a half,

2099
01:46:39,399 --> 01:46:44,819
as a technology and innovation consult. And then my main job was actually

2100
01:46:45,180 --> 01:46:49,680
to look at the rules and see what can we do and what do we change?

2101
01:46:49,990 --> 01:46:50,000
Uh,

2102
01:46:50,009 --> 01:46:53,169
a number of things from the regulations that they change

2103
01:46:53,180 --> 01:46:55,759
is because of not because only because of me,

2104
01:46:55,770 --> 01:46:56,000
but

2105
01:46:56,149 --> 01:46:57,959
they actually started around that time.

2106
01:46:58,939 --> 01:47:03,879
So my first day that I arrived at the UCI,

2107
01:47:04,640 --> 01:47:09,970
I go to the UCI and, uh, we’re sitting down for lunch,

2108
01:47:10,339 --> 01:47:14,859
uh, with some of the top brass of the UCI, and next to me sits

2109
01:47:15,149 --> 01:47:17,140
uh, Brian, that he was the,

2110
01:47:17,569 --> 01:47:19,169
uh, UCI president.

2111
01:47:19,600 --> 01:47:21,580
Uh, we were talking about this and that or the other.

2112
01:47:22,319 --> 01:47:23,529
And, um,

2113
01:47:23,979 --> 01:47:26,060
he says, um, Dimitris,

2114
01:47:28,470 --> 01:47:29,819
what do you think?

2115
01:47:30,680 --> 01:47:31,850
Uh, the

2116
01:47:32,020 --> 01:47:34,580
bikes, uh, that should be today.

2117
01:47:35,879 --> 01:47:37,129
I said, uh,

2118
01:47:37,589 --> 01:47:40,540
look, Brian, uh, I think, uh, the

2119
01:47:41,089 --> 01:47:42,020
it should be

2120
01:47:42,990 --> 01:47:46,290
Today's riders with today's bikes,

2121
01:47:47,419 --> 01:47:50,080
not the bikes of yesteryear.

2122
01:47:51,250 --> 01:47:55,600
So today's bikes, Uh, by, uh, uh, riders with today's bikes

2123
01:47:56,450 --> 01:48:01,310
and Brian, he said, I think that's a good idea. And this is really the time that,

2124
01:48:02,009 --> 01:48:06,839
uh, the Hour Record, uh, regulations. They changed and they went to, in

2125
01:48:07,029 --> 01:48:10,700
effect, the Hour Record regulations. They changed to go to whatever

2126
01:48:10,919 --> 01:48:14,879
they were the legal UCI bikes of the time.

2127
01:48:15,580 --> 01:48:18,240
So in effect, today's riders with today's bikes

2128
01:48:18,720 --> 01:48:23,470
and also a number of other things, they started going. The 3 to 1 rule is gone

2129
01:48:23,830 --> 01:48:25,750
and a few other small things here and there.

2130
01:48:26,520 --> 01:48:27,180
So

2131
01:48:28,359 --> 01:48:32,700
I strongly believe today's riders with today's bikes, which also means,

2132
01:48:32,910 --> 01:48:35,600
as today's technology

2133
01:48:36,009 --> 01:48:40,379
is being improved and created as we're going along,

2134
01:48:41,419 --> 01:48:43,799
this is done by today's people

2135
01:48:43,919 --> 01:48:46,120
with some of them are actually also the riders.

2136
01:48:46,439 --> 01:48:49,700
So as the things are progressing. We need to progress with them.

2137
01:48:50,049 --> 01:48:52,720
Otherwise, we're gonna just stay. I go

2138
01:48:53,040 --> 01:48:56,200
back in the caves. Can you imagine? When we were in the caves

2139
01:48:56,459 --> 01:48:59,279
and we were thinking should I go out there or the tiger will eat me?

2140
01:48:59,669 --> 01:49:00,629
And it just seems

2141
01:49:00,899 --> 01:49:03,740
as if, uh, I have seen it. Don't know if it's just in the past year, but,

2142
01:49:04,060 --> 01:49:04,069
uh,

2143
01:49:04,740 --> 01:49:09,250
like an interest from Formula One teams, you know, getting back into cycling again,

2144
01:49:09,259 --> 01:49:09,759
and and

2145
01:49:10,069 --> 01:49:13,799
and with the Netflix and these sort of documentaries, it seems that

2146
01:49:14,459 --> 01:49:18,759
there's more and more budget Red Bull coming in that, you know,

2147
01:49:18,979 --> 01:49:19,750
obviously I

2148
01:49:19,970 --> 01:49:23,910
INEOS is still a major, you know, uh, player. But, you know, Visma–Lease a Bike

2149
01:49:24,169 --> 01:49:26,439
Seems like if the technology doesn't

2150
01:49:27,100 --> 01:49:27,540
it,

2151
01:49:27,750 --> 01:49:29,250
if it restricts,

2152
01:49:29,629 --> 01:49:32,680
those people won't be interested. Cos they want it to be.

2153
01:49:33,000 --> 01:49:35,870
They want to differentiate, don't they? They don't want everybody to be the same.

2154
01:49:35,879 --> 01:49:38,000
Or why would they be coming in?

2155
01:49:38,370 --> 01:49:38,450
Yeah,

2156
01:49:39,310 --> 01:49:39,629
yeah, I

2157
01:49:39,759 --> 01:49:42,129
think what makes the the sport interesting.

2158
01:49:42,140 --> 01:49:44,649
Of course, the athletic performance is number one,

2159
01:49:45,779 --> 01:49:46,779
and that's what I'm saying.

2160
01:49:46,790 --> 01:49:49,979
You have to have regulations and you have to be able to enforce it.

2161
01:49:50,470 --> 01:49:52,810
UCI had a bit of a problem

2162
01:49:52,939 --> 01:49:55,970
on the enforcement at some point. Now they are much better.

2163
01:49:56,620 --> 01:49:57,399
So

2164
01:49:57,629 --> 01:50:00,319
having the regulations and being able to enforce it is

2165
01:50:00,549 --> 01:50:01,799
you make sure that

2166
01:50:01,959 --> 01:50:05,600
you don't go from where you are. And somebody has a brilliant idea.

2167
01:50:05,609 --> 01:50:06,879
It goes up here somewhere

2168
01:50:07,200 --> 01:50:10,000
and nobody else wins for the next 10 years.

2169
01:50:10,529 --> 01:50:11,770
Because then

2170
01:50:12,240 --> 01:50:16,580
the the public is going to lose the interest. You go there to watch a race,

2171
01:50:16,740 --> 01:50:20,649
you have your favourite. But, uh, your favourite hopefully will win.

2172
01:50:20,830 --> 01:50:23,720
But if your favourite wins all the time, where is the interest?

2173
01:50:23,729 --> 01:50:25,959
You got to go over there? You know the guy is going to win.

2174
01:50:26,870 --> 01:50:27,160
What?

2175
01:50:27,299 --> 01:50:28,529
Why should I go there?

2176
01:50:29,740 --> 01:50:32,529
So the competition makes a difference. So

2177
01:50:32,930 --> 01:50:35,970
the UCI needs to set the regulations.

2178
01:50:35,979 --> 01:50:40,410
It goes like from here to there to there, to there, to there, to there.

2179
01:50:40,740 --> 01:50:45,209
So you keep modifying us new things that are coming in.

2180
01:50:45,439 --> 01:50:48,990
And of course, you need to keep pace with the new things.

2181
01:50:49,000 --> 01:50:51,029
Usually the problem with these kind of things is

2182
01:50:51,620 --> 01:50:54,759
the technology outpaces

2183
01:50:55,100 --> 01:50:56,810
the people. They check it

2184
01:50:57,250 --> 01:50:59,600
usually the ones they create the technology.

2185
01:50:59,609 --> 01:51:02,229
They are, like, years ahead of the ones that they try to check it.

2186
01:51:02,680 --> 01:51:04,959
And it's like a cat and mouse, you know,

2187
01:51:05,919 --> 01:51:06,640
And, uh, to

2188
01:51:07,470 --> 01:51:10,950
be fair to the UCI nowadays, they are very good, very open.

2189
01:51:11,189 --> 01:51:16,750
And, uh, they they do take a good view of innovation

2190
01:51:17,120 --> 01:51:19,240
much better than a few years back. That, uh

2191
01:51:19,549 --> 01:51:19,560
uh,

2192
01:51:19,569 --> 01:51:22,450
the number, I should be on the blacklist of the UCI—

2193
01:51:22,549 --> 01:51:26,669
least in the past on how many innovations that I applied and they said no,

2194
01:51:28,819 --> 01:51:32,879
that Yeah, that's funny. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to speak.

2195
01:51:32,890 --> 01:51:33,899
I mean, I think

2196
01:51:34,609 --> 01:51:36,450
it would be good to talk again some

2197
01:51:36,580 --> 01:51:36,950
of the future.

2198
01:51:36,959 --> 01:51:38,649
I know there's certain stuff we worked on and

2199
01:51:38,660 --> 01:51:40,140
stuff you're working on now that I guess,

2200
01:51:40,470 --> 01:51:41,250
in certain,

2201
01:51:41,799 --> 01:51:42,149
you know,

2202
01:51:42,370 --> 01:51:45,140
months and and after Olympics, you may be

2203
01:51:45,529 --> 01:51:49,220
able to talk about things, but yeah, I really enjoyed this. And

2204
01:51:49,709 --> 01:51:50,750
yeah, thanks so much.

2205
01:51:51,390 --> 01:51:51,700
Thanks, Neil.

2206
01:52:14,129 --> 01:52:14,160
That