1
00:00:00,100 --> 00:00:02,480
hi and welcome to the Neil Ashton podcast.

2
00:00:03,019 --> 00:00:03,839
In each episode,

3
00:00:03,849 --> 00:00:07,309
we explained some of the fascinating ways that science and engineering

4
00:00:07,469 --> 00:00:09,159
are changing the world around us.

5
00:00:09,699 --> 00:00:14,170
We talk to leading engineers from elite level sports like cycling and Formula One

6
00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:16,670
to some of the world's top academics.

7
00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:21,069
To understand how fluid dynamics, machine learning and supercomputing

8
00:00:21,229 --> 00:00:22,729
are bringing in a new era of discovery.

9
00:00:23,790 --> 00:00:27,149
We also hear some of their life stories, their career advice

10
00:00:27,540 --> 00:00:31,590
and lessons they've learned on the way that I hope will be helpful to you too.

11
00:00:31,959 --> 00:00:34,330
So sit back and enjoy this episode.

12
00:00:39,639 --> 00:00:41,580
Welcome back to the Neil Ashton podcast.

13
00:00:41,900 --> 00:00:42,580
So

14
00:00:42,689 --> 00:00:46,500
really excited. Actually, this is one of the interviews I was

15
00:00:47,349 --> 00:00:49,729
planning to do when I created this podcast.

16
00:00:49,740 --> 00:00:53,310
In a sense, these are the sort of individuals that I really wanted to speak to

17
00:00:53,930 --> 00:00:59,479
and for you to hear from, because I think they're that blend of engineers.

18
00:00:59,619 --> 00:01:02,330
But they've been in such privileged positions,

19
00:01:02,340 --> 00:01:06,300
such unique positions that they sort of give you an insight into a world that

20
00:01:06,529 --> 00:01:09,430
very few of us get get to ever see.

21
00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:16,300
So, Pat, uh, I worked with him on the Formula One sort of next gen car programme.

22
00:01:16,309 --> 00:01:18,720
That was the 2022 change in rules.

23
00:01:18,970 --> 00:01:22,209
Uh, and so for a couple of years, I you know, I worked quite closely with him,

24
00:01:22,220 --> 00:01:24,599
and I had a huge amount of respect for his

25
00:01:24,989 --> 00:01:26,220
technical knowledge,

26
00:01:26,279 --> 00:01:31,660
but also his leadership and and just the kindness that he has towards individual He,

27
00:01:31,669 --> 00:01:33,860
uh, he works with and very much a

28
00:01:34,129 --> 00:01:37,349
sort of, um, future thinker. I think there's a

29
00:01:37,699 --> 00:01:40,819
a bit of a trend in Formula One that sometimes people can be a little

30
00:01:40,830 --> 00:01:45,750
bit conservative and and sort of not always adapt the sort of latest methods.

31
00:01:46,129 --> 00:01:50,000
Um, which is I know a bit ironic to say that, but but but it is true.

32
00:01:50,010 --> 00:01:52,699
It's quite a conservative business.

33
00:01:52,949 --> 00:01:56,900
Uh, whereas Pat's always, uh, thinking about the future, which,

34
00:01:56,910 --> 00:01:57,889
which I really like.

35
00:01:58,160 --> 00:01:58,800
Um,

36
00:01:59,089 --> 00:01:59,639
now,

37
00:01:59,650 --> 00:02:03,839
we actually did this interview a few days before he announced

38
00:02:03,849 --> 00:02:07,319
that he was actually leaving Formula One after seven years,

39
00:02:07,580 --> 00:02:09,119
uh, as their CTO

40
00:02:09,690 --> 00:02:10,880
and actually has moved over.

41
00:02:10,889 --> 00:02:13,690
Now it's executive engineering consultant to Andretti.

42
00:02:14,279 --> 00:02:18,669
Uh, this happened a few days afterwards, so we don't discuss it, uh, in the talk,

43
00:02:18,679 --> 00:02:20,089
but it's kind of interesting.

44
00:02:20,529 --> 00:02:23,880
Uh, to know that after after doing this this interview,

45
00:02:24,100 --> 00:02:24,820
um,

46
00:02:25,130 --> 00:02:28,800
we we go through lots of topics, as with any of the guests I've had.

47
00:02:28,809 --> 00:02:31,580
You know, I, I feel we could have spoke for many more hours.

48
00:02:31,729 --> 00:02:33,880
Uh, but we start from the early days.

49
00:02:33,889 --> 00:02:37,360
What motivated him to get into engineering into Formula One?

50
00:02:37,690 --> 00:02:39,509
Um, I love hearing the sort of

51
00:02:39,740 --> 00:02:42,949
the stories and the way that Formula One has evolved,

52
00:02:43,050 --> 00:02:45,899
you know, particularly the way the paddock was. And you know,

53
00:02:46,270 --> 00:02:49,639
not this, uh, amazing show that it is today,

54
00:02:50,029 --> 00:02:53,360
Uh, but something, you know, more like a Formula two or Formula Three.

55
00:02:53,559 --> 00:02:55,250
of course. When when he started

56
00:02:55,580 --> 00:03:00,250
his time moving through, um, Toleman to Benetton to Renault,

57
00:03:00,399 --> 00:03:03,830
of course, with Michael Schumacher being the race engineer

58
00:03:04,139 --> 00:03:05,649
and then sort of discussing,

59
00:03:05,660 --> 00:03:08,740
rising through the ranks and almost a reluctance in a way

60
00:03:08,750 --> 00:03:12,470
to go into these very managerial positions because he was such a

61
00:03:13,059 --> 00:03:13,979
an engineer.

62
00:03:14,270 --> 00:03:15,800
Um, of course.

63
00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:21,410
He then went on to have time at Virgin, then Williams for a few years.

64
00:03:21,610 --> 00:03:23,500
Uh and then, of course, we formed new one,

65
00:03:23,509 --> 00:03:28,110
and we talk about some of the some of that project of of changing the rules.

66
00:03:28,119 --> 00:03:32,279
And we talk a little bit about his vision for the future where he would like,

67
00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:34,000
uh, the sport to go.

68
00:03:34,250 --> 00:03:36,389
So, I, I think he's someone who,

69
00:03:36,399 --> 00:03:40,360
um I think people can learn a lot from He's had an amazing career.

70
00:03:40,710 --> 00:03:44,550
And it's not over yet. Not at all. He is super ambitious

71
00:03:44,869 --> 00:03:46,660
and still has so much energy.

72
00:03:46,669 --> 00:03:51,690
So, yeah, I really, uh, hope you enjoy this, uh, this episode with Pat Symonds.

73
00:03:52,110 --> 00:03:54,029
Um, we've known each other a little bit,

74
00:03:54,169 --> 00:03:58,309
and I can't think of many people who have done as much as you have.

75
00:03:58,830 --> 00:03:59,350
Um,

76
00:04:00,009 --> 00:04:04,699
but was this all planned? Did you have some grand vision when you were 1516?

77
00:04:04,710 --> 00:04:08,179
That you would be winning world championships and being technical directors?

78
00:04:08,190 --> 00:04:10,350
Did you always want to be an engineer?

79
00:04:10,839 --> 00:04:16,500
Yeah, I think it was 12. Actually, not 15 or 16. And it's interesting because, um,

80
00:04:17,308 --> 00:04:18,928
many years ago, someone asked me,

81
00:04:18,938 --> 00:04:22,528
Was there a point where you really decided what you wanted to do?

82
00:04:23,128 --> 00:04:26,069
And I said, no, not really. You know, I. I grew up.

83
00:04:26,079 --> 00:04:29,968
My my father was, uh, an engineering officer in the Air Force,

84
00:04:30,359 --> 00:04:31,449
and, uh,

85
00:04:31,808 --> 00:04:33,808
he loved cars. He loved racing.

86
00:04:33,908 --> 00:04:35,139
He loved aircraft.

87
00:04:35,509 --> 00:04:38,759
Uh, and so I sort of grew up in that engineering environment.

88
00:04:38,769 --> 00:04:42,158
And that was every weekend, sort of helping him take his car to bits,

89
00:04:42,169 --> 00:04:44,069
pull it back together, et cetera, et cetera.

90
00:04:44,890 --> 00:04:45,779
But, um

91
00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:50,470
and therefore I thought, you know, I want to get involved with this,

92
00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:52,700
and I want to design cars.

93
00:04:52,709 --> 00:04:54,040
And that was certainly

94
00:04:54,350 --> 00:04:55,739
when I was, uh,

95
00:04:56,589 --> 00:04:59,450
by 1112, You know, knowing this and

96
00:04:59,709 --> 00:05:04,510
my father used to take me to races. We lived up in Norfolk, so we'd go to Snetterton,

97
00:05:04,660 --> 00:05:05,730
Uh, quite often.

98
00:05:06,559 --> 00:05:07,649
And, uh,

99
00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:13,299
I think you know, the the real turning point to me

100
00:05:13,579 --> 00:05:19,269
was, uh, good Friday 1967. Believe it or not, there was a,

101
00:05:19,820 --> 00:05:25,540
uh, a race, uh, at snetterton that day and been to many races before.

102
00:05:25,549 --> 00:05:27,700
But this particular one, it was an international,

103
00:05:28,119 --> 00:05:33,579
uh, all the top drivers were there. It was the first race of, uh, a new formula two,

104
00:05:33,750 --> 00:05:34,779
formula.

105
00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:40,660
And there were GT for in the support races and all these wonderful cars,

106
00:05:40,670 --> 00:05:43,399
and I thought, Yeah, this is something I want to get involved in.

107
00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:47,329
And, uh, yeah, I was I was quite focused. Now,

108
00:05:48,149 --> 00:05:51,649
of course, I didn't think I'd get into racing the way I did,

109
00:05:51,660 --> 00:05:53,570
but that's perhaps another story.

110
00:05:53,950 --> 00:05:57,779
But I certainly decided that I wanted to design cars

111
00:05:58,269 --> 00:05:59,049
and

112
00:05:59,260 --> 00:06:02,649
B that I wanted to work for Ford because Ford were,

113
00:06:02,940 --> 00:06:05,929
you know, they were everything in motorsport in those days.

114
00:06:06,559 --> 00:06:07,170
And,

115
00:06:07,399 --> 00:06:09,700
you know, that was such a great motorsport history,

116
00:06:10,329 --> 00:06:11,809
Uh, and so

117
00:06:12,100 --> 00:06:14,329
worked my way through school and,

118
00:06:14,769 --> 00:06:18,209
uh uh, applied for an undergraduate apprenticeship with Ford,

119
00:06:18,230 --> 00:06:19,769
which I was lucky enough to get.

120
00:06:19,779 --> 00:06:21,690
And that really set me going.

121
00:06:30,019 --> 00:06:30,440
No

122
00:06:30,540 --> 00:06:33,049
mechanical, definitely. And, uh,

123
00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:34,290
in fact,

124
00:06:34,450 --> 00:06:38,390
when I I did my my Ford undergraduate apprenticeship,

125
00:06:39,079 --> 00:06:42,429
I actually did an H and D first rather than a degree, because

126
00:06:42,670 --> 00:06:45,899
my a level results hadn't been quite what I needed them to be.

127
00:06:46,420 --> 00:06:47,010
Um

128
00:06:48,410 --> 00:06:52,730
and so I did my HND in mechanical engineering and then, uh, I. I

129
00:06:52,859 --> 00:06:56,489
did a master's in automotive engineering,

130
00:06:56,730 --> 00:07:00,149
So I had that sort of background of, uh of mechanical

131
00:07:00,380 --> 00:07:02,459
and then went on to do automotive and

132
00:07:02,579 --> 00:07:05,619
my sort of specialisation was vehicle dynamics. Then,

133
00:07:05,989 --> 00:07:09,470
uh, of course, this was in the days long before there were any

134
00:07:09,619 --> 00:07:14,350
motorsport engineering type courses, of which there there are many now,

135
00:07:14,839 --> 00:07:15,750
but, um,

136
00:07:15,970 --> 00:07:17,339
yeah, that that was my

137
00:07:17,859 --> 00:07:19,809
My aim was to to

138
00:07:20,079 --> 00:07:23,480
go and work for Ford and design road cars.

139
00:07:23,980 --> 00:07:24,600
But

140
00:07:24,940 --> 00:07:29,200
in actual fact, by the time I I graduated, it was in the

141
00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:33,040
in the mid seventies. In fact, when I finished my HND,

142
00:07:33,700 --> 00:07:34,359
um

143
00:07:34,570 --> 00:07:36,559
I looked at what was going on at Ford,

144
00:07:36,570 --> 00:07:39,350
and it wasn't a great time in the British motor industry.

145
00:07:39,529 --> 00:07:43,880
It wasn't a great time in Britain, to be honest, but, uh,

146
00:07:45,149 --> 00:07:48,339
Ford were were really in a bit of a transition.

147
00:07:48,459 --> 00:07:49,059
And

148
00:07:49,609 --> 00:07:52,399
Ford in the USA had sort of decided that

149
00:07:52,820 --> 00:07:55,760
that Germany would do the cars and Britain would

150
00:07:55,769 --> 00:07:58,690
do trucks and vans and things like that.

151
00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:01,200
Uh, and that didn't appeal to me much.

152
00:08:01,420 --> 00:08:02,619
And in addition,

153
00:08:03,140 --> 00:08:04,730
they'd very much gone into this sort

154
00:08:04,739 --> 00:08:08,000
of component engineering very specialised thing.

155
00:08:08,010 --> 00:08:11,420
So you know, you you could be the guy who who knew more about

156
00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:14,579
tooth cam belts than anyone in the world.

157
00:08:14,589 --> 00:08:19,559
But you never really got to to design the whole vehicle. So it wasn't

158
00:08:19,820 --> 00:08:22,119
that appealing and that that's actually why I went

159
00:08:22,130 --> 00:08:25,329
and did my masters to sort of hope that,

160
00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:27,440
uh, the industry would

161
00:08:27,660 --> 00:08:29,239
would pick up a little bit.

162
00:08:29,739 --> 00:08:32,659
But at the end of that, it it still wasn't looking good.

163
00:08:33,150 --> 00:08:35,049
And I went to Cranfield,

164
00:08:35,580 --> 00:08:36,780
and, uh,

165
00:08:37,739 --> 00:08:39,908
when I was at Cranfield there,

166
00:08:39,919 --> 00:08:42,688
there was actually an advertisement appeared on

167
00:08:42,698 --> 00:08:45,518
the notice board in in the university

168
00:08:46,018 --> 00:08:48,809
and, uh, looking for someone to help a

169
00:08:49,039 --> 00:08:50,929
little company called Royale,

170
00:08:51,158 --> 00:08:53,129
uh, who wanted to do a Formula two.

171
00:08:53,138 --> 00:08:56,359
Carl and I thought, Well, I'll go and play and see what happens.

172
00:08:57,150 --> 00:08:58,750
And so I went and did that.

173
00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:03,369
And I met Rory Byrne, who became quite a big part of my my life later on.

174
00:09:03,989 --> 00:09:05,119
And, uh,

175
00:09:05,409 --> 00:09:06,409
I got the job.

176
00:09:06,869 --> 00:09:08,650
Uh, I thought, that's great, you know?

177
00:09:09,049 --> 00:09:11,409
And then I found out what motor racing's really like.

178
00:09:11,419 --> 00:09:14,039
Because, of course, as soon as I got the job and, uh,

179
00:09:14,049 --> 00:09:16,469
I decided I wasn't working for Ford anymore,

180
00:09:17,179 --> 00:09:17,830
the

181
00:09:18,109 --> 00:09:22,200
sponsorship money that was going to build this Formula two car disappeared. So

182
00:09:23,090 --> 00:09:25,559
absolutely. And so the job disappeared.

183
00:09:26,330 --> 00:09:28,010
And but by this time, you know,

184
00:09:28,020 --> 00:09:32,039
I got the bug and I so I just wrote to everyone I could think of and

185
00:09:32,210 --> 00:09:34,719
said you know, I was graduating and I wanted a

186
00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:35,739
job.

187
00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:38,440
And I actually got a job with Hawke, who were

188
00:09:38,780 --> 00:09:43,659
a competitor of Royale making Formula Fords, Formula Ford, two thousands,

189
00:09:43,869 --> 00:09:45,369
uh, down in south end,

190
00:09:45,599 --> 00:09:46,140
and

191
00:09:46,479 --> 00:09:47,390
I went to work there,

192
00:09:48,090 --> 00:09:48,929
and, uh,

193
00:09:49,190 --> 00:09:51,729
it was a bit of an eye opener, actually, because, uh,

194
00:09:52,469 --> 00:09:55,840
I arrived and there was a little porter cabin and I said, OK,

195
00:09:55,849 --> 00:09:57,039
this is where you're working.

196
00:09:57,869 --> 00:09:59,950
And I walked in there and there was no one else there.

197
00:09:59,960 --> 00:10:02,849
So I realised then, you know, I was the designer.

198
00:10:02,859 --> 00:10:06,130
There was no one else straight out of the university.

199
00:10:06,140 --> 00:10:08,229
And it's like, Oh, OK, where do I start?

200
00:10:08,849 --> 00:10:09,570
And

201
00:10:10,039 --> 00:10:13,049
I started by by sort of saying, Well, look, you know,

202
00:10:13,530 --> 00:10:14,390
I've learned

203
00:10:14,510 --> 00:10:18,729
a lot of engineering. I've learned a lot about vehicle dynamics. Let's let's see

204
00:10:19,119 --> 00:10:21,849
what we need to do with the with these cars.

205
00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:24,330
And it started off with the Formula Ford car,

206
00:10:25,109 --> 00:10:26,099
and, um,

207
00:10:27,710 --> 00:10:30,090
they ran on on Dunlop tyres. So

208
00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:34,109
I got a hold of Dunlop and I said, I need some tyre data and they said, Oh, well,

209
00:10:34,119 --> 00:10:35,580
I've never been asked for that before,

210
00:10:35,780 --> 00:10:37,510
but yeah, we can we can get some.

211
00:10:37,909 --> 00:10:41,940
So I got some very basic tyre data. And I did, uh, you know, a

212
00:10:42,119 --> 00:10:44,049
few calculations because

213
00:10:44,239 --> 00:10:46,400
I didn't have a computer or anything like that.

214
00:10:46,710 --> 00:10:50,830
In fact, actually, when I was in south end, uh, working for Hawke,

215
00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:54,690
I actually enrolled at local technical college on a welding course.

216
00:10:55,190 --> 00:10:58,260
And I did that because, yeah, I wanted to learn too well, but also,

217
00:10:58,270 --> 00:10:59,859
it meant I could use a computer.

218
00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:05,130
Uh, and so I, I wrote a suspension geometry programme. And,

219
00:11:05,710 --> 00:11:05,719
uh,

220
00:11:05,849 --> 00:11:06,450
it was that

221
00:11:06,770 --> 00:11:10,030
attitude of when you'd done a masters. You'd gone,

222
00:11:10,210 --> 00:11:11,950
you know, was was motorsport at that time,

223
00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:14,890
predominantly people who hadn't almost gone through that path.

224
00:11:14,900 --> 00:11:17,489
It was more sort of old school. Yeah,

225
00:11:17,719 --> 00:11:19,559
a a absolutely, um,

226
00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:22,599
I. I was very lucky in a way, because I was one of the

227
00:11:24,289 --> 00:11:28,500
the first sort of academics. You know, who who who got involved now that that's

228
00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:32,900
that sounds a bit grand. Because, of course, there are a lot of people

229
00:11:33,359 --> 00:11:36,289
around people like Patrick, Colin Chapman, they, they

230
00:11:36,500 --> 00:11:39,719
they had degrees, a lot of very, very clever people as well.

231
00:11:39,729 --> 00:11:41,929
But there was still an awful lot of people who

232
00:11:42,109 --> 00:11:46,929
who were the sort of traditional engineers self taught, particularly track side.

233
00:11:47,419 --> 00:11:48,099
Um,

234
00:11:48,419 --> 00:11:48,859
but

235
00:11:49,030 --> 00:11:52,700
yeah, I I I'd actually done automotive engineering. I I

236
00:11:53,169 --> 00:11:57,270
I'd specialised in vehicle dynamics, but I'd done all the other modules as well.

237
00:11:57,669 --> 00:11:59,070
Uh, and so yeah, I.

238
00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:01,030
I started to apply that sort of thing,

239
00:12:01,039 --> 00:12:03,989
and and the cars were actually very successful.

240
00:12:04,549 --> 00:12:05,150
In fact,

241
00:12:05,429 --> 00:12:07,909
the first race I attended

242
00:12:08,659 --> 00:12:10,539
in a professional capacity

243
00:12:10,950 --> 00:12:16,000
was the form of the Ford Festival in 1976.

244
00:12:17,539 --> 00:12:21,679
And, uh, we finished 1st, 2nd and 3rd in that, and I thought, Oh, OK.

245
00:12:21,849 --> 00:12:22,880
This is easy

246
00:12:23,109 --> 00:12:25,780
how wrong I was. I mean, it's anything but easy.

247
00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:26,750
Um,

248
00:12:26,919 --> 00:12:29,150
but yeah, uh, I I did

249
00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:34,080
the formula Ford car there, the form of Ford 2000. I did a Formula Three car,

250
00:12:34,510 --> 00:12:35,159
um,

251
00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:36,080
which

252
00:12:36,380 --> 00:12:37,429
was run by Jan Lammers,

253
00:12:37,729 --> 00:12:39,320
in the European Championship.

254
00:12:39,630 --> 00:12:42,950
Uh, it wasn't terribly successful car, to be honest, it was,

255
00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:46,929
uh it was a bit overweight, and it took a lot to get the the weight off the car,

256
00:12:47,179 --> 00:12:51,039
but you know it it it was competitive. So it was a

257
00:12:51,369 --> 00:12:52,650
great way to start.

258
00:12:53,549 --> 00:12:57,039
Uh, and then things progressed, I guess because Uh

259
00:12:58,030 --> 00:12:58,690
uh.

260
00:12:58,900 --> 00:13:04,539
Hawk was it was a fantastic place to work because, you know, we had a big machine shop,

261
00:13:04,549 --> 00:13:06,049
big fabrication shop.

262
00:13:06,330 --> 00:13:07,530
We were doing everything,

263
00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:08,890
um,

264
00:13:10,690 --> 00:13:13,090
but it, like

265
00:13:13,210 --> 00:13:17,429
so many times in motorsport, you know, finances were strained. And

266
00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:21,130
after the paycheck bounced a couple of times, you sort of think, Oh,

267
00:13:21,140 --> 00:13:23,429
I wonder if there's something else around now

268
00:13:24,469 --> 00:13:25,330
at this time,

269
00:13:25,340 --> 00:13:29,609
it's funny because it goes back to that advertisement at Cranfield because

270
00:13:31,390 --> 00:13:34,090
Rory Byrne was chief designer at Royale

271
00:13:34,260 --> 00:13:36,789
and he was, uh, going to Toleman.

272
00:13:36,799 --> 00:13:38,929
He was leaving Royale Toleman were going to

273
00:13:38,940 --> 00:13:41,450
build their own cars in Formula Two championship.

274
00:13:42,789 --> 00:13:45,250
Rory knew all the Toleman people,

275
00:13:45,419 --> 00:13:47,020
so he went off to do that.

276
00:13:47,229 --> 00:13:50,340
And he recommended to Alan Cornock,

277
00:13:50,479 --> 00:13:55,320
who owned Royale, that perhaps I was the guy to take his place. So that's what I did.

278
00:13:55,330 --> 00:13:56,090
I moved to

279
00:13:56,340 --> 00:13:59,090
Royale and did a few years there, which were

280
00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:02,539
very, very successful, actually. Formula for

281
00:14:02,690 --> 00:14:04,359
Formula 2000, we didn't

282
00:14:04,489 --> 00:14:05,969
do anything beyond that,

283
00:14:06,659 --> 00:14:07,679
but, um,

284
00:14:07,950 --> 00:14:11,090
we set a record for the number of races won in a year. Uh,

285
00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:15,200
we built a Formula Ford 2000 car that I think the first time

286
00:14:15,210 --> 00:14:18,320
it got beaten was sort of end of August of that season.

287
00:14:18,330 --> 00:14:18,729
It was

288
00:14:18,929 --> 00:14:20,280
It was a really good time.

289
00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:22,299
And

290
00:14:22,590 --> 00:14:25,059
ultimately it led to

291
00:14:26,190 --> 00:14:29,500
When Toleman decided to go from Formula Two to Formula One,

292
00:14:29,510 --> 00:14:32,890
they asked me to join them on the Formula One programme.

293
00:14:33,309 --> 00:14:40,190
So it's interesting, because in those early days in in 76 when I graduated,

294
00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:41,549
um,

295
00:14:43,070 --> 00:14:44,929
and I I said, Right, I'm gonna do a

296
00:14:45,239 --> 00:14:49,659
three year programme. I'm gonna three years in motorsport. Then I'll go back to a

297
00:14:49,900 --> 00:14:51,530
proper job. And

298
00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:53,409
I'm on year 47.

299
00:14:55,500 --> 00:14:56,530
Yeah, that's that's kind of

300
00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:58,789
were you watching form one at that time?

301
00:14:58,799 --> 00:15:02,219
Were you sort of a big fan of the sport or were you?

302
00:15:02,809 --> 00:15:04,700
Do you know what I mean? Were you always obsessed with P

303
00:15:04,909 --> 00:15:06,349
on, even while you weren't in it?

304
00:15:06,539 --> 00:15:11,669
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No. Always a big fan. You know, the the bedroom wall had all the

305
00:15:11,900 --> 00:15:13,039
pictures of the

306
00:15:13,169 --> 00:15:17,820
latest 49 things like that, you know, going back to the the sort of sixties.

307
00:15:18,039 --> 00:15:21,989
So, yeah, Al, always a big fan of of racing. Um,

308
00:15:23,510 --> 00:15:25,090
even when I was at school,

309
00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:27,049
we formed

310
00:15:27,190 --> 00:15:27,200
a

311
00:15:27,719 --> 00:15:30,590
motor racing club and we used to go off to races.

312
00:15:30,599 --> 00:15:34,010
In fact, quite an interesting story was that, um

313
00:15:34,650 --> 00:15:36,030
when I was at school at

314
00:15:36,469 --> 00:15:38,469
the end of one summer term.

315
00:15:38,479 --> 00:15:42,109
You know that last week when you're sort of talking about things you're going to do

316
00:15:42,900 --> 00:15:43,559
and

317
00:15:43,940 --> 00:15:48,549
one of our our teachers said, OK, what are you guys going to do when you leave school?

318
00:15:49,409 --> 00:15:52,219
And one of my friends said I'm gonna be a racing driver,

319
00:15:52,619 --> 00:15:56,760
So I thought, Well, II, I say I'm gonna design racing cars.

320
00:15:57,059 --> 00:16:00,640
So I said, I'm going to design racing cars and and we got laughed at,

321
00:16:01,700 --> 00:16:02,210
um,

322
00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:05,940
but actually, the joke turned around because that guy was

323
00:16:06,380 --> 00:16:07,929
a chap called John Village

324
00:16:08,739 --> 00:16:09,919
and, uh,

325
00:16:10,219 --> 00:16:10,849
in

326
00:16:11,260 --> 00:16:14,169
probably, I don't know, 1979 1980.

327
00:16:14,409 --> 00:16:16,679
I designed the car that he won the European

328
00:16:16,830 --> 00:16:18,869
Championship in. So, uh,

329
00:16:19,190 --> 00:16:22,570
we did actually achieve what we what we said we were going to do.

330
00:16:22,710 --> 00:16:23,840
That's that's amazing.

331
00:16:24,059 --> 00:16:27,380
You know, I was just gonna ask you before we maybe, um, move on a little bit.

332
00:16:27,549 --> 00:16:30,440
You know, during those times when you were starting. I think now,

333
00:16:30,890 --> 00:16:35,039
if you were to join a company and you didn't know something. You could just google it.

334
00:16:35,469 --> 00:16:36,750
You could look online. You could

335
00:16:37,380 --> 00:16:39,349
when you were put into that situation

336
00:16:39,539 --> 00:16:41,119
and you didn't know how to do it.

337
00:16:41,330 --> 00:16:43,580
And it sounds like a very practical question. But what? What

338
00:16:43,780 --> 00:16:47,260
What did you have to do at that time? Was it going to the local library? Was it?

339
00:16:47,590 --> 00:16:49,200
How did you get that information?

340
00:16:49,650 --> 00:16:51,530
Yeah, I mean, it really was difficult.

341
00:16:51,539 --> 00:16:55,960
Uh, and, uh, it it is amazing what you can Google, and and

342
00:16:56,559 --> 00:16:59,989
you know how that can sometimes mislead you, but yeah,

343
00:17:00,010 --> 00:17:03,049
you You did just that you went to your local library

344
00:17:03,349 --> 00:17:05,239
and and you looked it up. You know,

345
00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:10,560
all your stress calculations came from Machinery's handbook, and,

346
00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:13,510
you know, there were well thumbed copies of that and, yeah,

347
00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:17,239
that was an expensive sort of book, but you had to have it because that was your

348
00:17:17,390 --> 00:17:22,150
basis for all the formulas and things. But of course, you had all your college votes

349
00:17:22,290 --> 00:17:24,790
and referred to those a lot.

350
00:17:26,439 --> 00:17:29,719
So then, Tom And what what was the progression like

351
00:17:29,859 --> 00:17:34,579
there? So they were then trying to get into Formula One, right? That was those times.

352
00:17:34,589 --> 00:17:36,410
So what was that experience? How did you move?

353
00:17:36,670 --> 00:17:37,349
Yeah, it

354
00:17:37,890 --> 00:17:42,280
again, You know, very, very different then the teams now are huge,

355
00:17:42,290 --> 00:17:44,380
and they take on a lot of graduates.

356
00:17:44,390 --> 00:17:44,969
And, uh,

357
00:17:46,449 --> 00:17:49,589
there's a lot of progression through the teams and what have you.

358
00:17:49,599 --> 00:17:51,390
But when I joined Toleman,

359
00:17:51,540 --> 00:17:53,109
I was employee number 20.

360
00:17:53,500 --> 00:17:55,989
So there were 20 of us. We had an ambition to go

361
00:17:56,270 --> 00:17:57,550
Formula One racing.

362
00:17:58,660 --> 00:17:59,319
And

363
00:17:59,469 --> 00:18:00,390
we had a

364
00:18:01,530 --> 00:18:04,589
a lot more ambition than we had ability, I would say

365
00:18:05,099 --> 00:18:05,709
so.

366
00:18:07,530 --> 00:18:12,430
Toleman had had just come off the back of a very, very successful Formula two season.

367
00:18:12,439 --> 00:18:13,770
They built their own cars,

368
00:18:14,410 --> 00:18:19,430
Um, brought Pirelli into the sport dominated Formula two season,

369
00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:24,150
Uh, in 1980. And so they decided

370
00:18:24,410 --> 00:18:25,140
in one

371
00:18:25,449 --> 00:18:27,180
to go Formula One racing.

372
00:18:28,790 --> 00:18:29,290
And

373
00:18:30,109 --> 00:18:32,589
I think the sort of people involved

374
00:18:32,750 --> 00:18:33,969
Ted Toleman, who

375
00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:36,219
died just recently,

376
00:18:36,790 --> 00:18:37,060
uh,

377
00:18:38,219 --> 00:18:40,030
Alex Hawkridge, who was the

378
00:18:40,770 --> 00:18:42,750
what we'd now call the team Principal

379
00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:45,430
Rory Byrne, Chief designer.

380
00:18:46,239 --> 00:18:48,410
Very, very ambitious people

381
00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:49,910
and

382
00:18:51,500 --> 00:18:52,719
lateral thinkers.

383
00:18:53,479 --> 00:18:54,099
So

384
00:18:55,670 --> 00:18:58,089
when they went into Formula One, they said, OK,

385
00:18:58,209 --> 00:19:00,189
we're not gonna just follow the

386
00:19:00,290 --> 00:19:03,910
the route of building a car, putting a Cosworth DFV in the back,

387
00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:05,849
bolting on Goodyear tyres and

388
00:19:06,219 --> 00:19:08,650
running around with the rest of them. We're we're gonna

389
00:19:08,979 --> 00:19:11,520
look at where things are going, and we're going to

390
00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:12,729
do it differently.

391
00:19:13,270 --> 00:19:17,410
So I guess the first decision was they needed a turbocharged engine.

392
00:19:17,949 --> 00:19:18,310
There were

393
00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:21,969
not many turbocharged engines around at the time, so they said right,

394
00:19:22,089 --> 00:19:24,530
been successful with Hart in Formula Two.

395
00:19:24,540 --> 00:19:26,900
So we're going to turbocharge the four cylinder

396
00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:27,770
engine.

397
00:19:28,180 --> 00:19:28,650
Um,

398
00:19:28,859 --> 00:19:31,689
it's something you'd hardly dream of doing these days

399
00:19:31,699 --> 00:19:33,729
with with this sort of knowledge you have of

400
00:19:34,449 --> 00:19:36,709
how complex the combustion is on

401
00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:38,140
those engines.

402
00:19:38,670 --> 00:19:43,349
Um, they decided that they would bring Pirelli to Formula One. But

403
00:19:44,930 --> 00:19:47,229
even then, you know, not do it the simple way.

404
00:19:47,239 --> 00:19:49,670
But everyone was running 13 inch wheels then

405
00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:50,630
and

406
00:19:50,949 --> 00:19:52,430
we thought, Well, you know,

407
00:19:52,849 --> 00:19:57,140
why are we on 13 inch wheels? It would be much better if we could get onto a 16, uh,

408
00:19:57,579 --> 00:20:01,569
inch wheel. We can get bigger brakes in there. All these sort of things,

409
00:20:02,089 --> 00:20:03,229
even the

410
00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:07,310
the monocoque. We decided not to do a carbon monocoque.

411
00:20:07,510 --> 00:20:10,469
We would do an aluminium monocoque aluminium honeycomb.

412
00:20:11,079 --> 00:20:14,900
But whereas most people were sort of taking sheets of aluminium honeycomb,

413
00:20:14,910 --> 00:20:15,270
they were

414
00:20:16,479 --> 00:20:18,699
routing out a little bit folding it

415
00:20:18,910 --> 00:20:20,819
and and glueing it together.

416
00:20:20,829 --> 00:20:24,579
We we actually made the monocoque in the same way that you would make a carbon

417
00:20:24,719 --> 00:20:25,099
monologue.

418
00:20:25,589 --> 00:20:26,260
So

419
00:20:26,619 --> 00:20:29,589
we first developed the skins. Then we

420
00:20:29,859 --> 00:20:32,020
used film glue honeycomb,

421
00:20:32,420 --> 00:20:37,510
uh, or put it in a an autoclave and built it as if it was a carbon monocoque. So,

422
00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:39,680
you know, trying to do everything right.

423
00:20:39,900 --> 00:20:43,099
And it was an absolute disaster. You know, the car, The car was just dreadful.

424
00:20:43,109 --> 00:20:44,420
It was so slow.

425
00:20:44,810 --> 00:20:45,540
Um,

426
00:20:46,270 --> 00:20:48,660
in fact, in 1981

427
00:20:51,410 --> 00:20:54,589
most races we didn't even qualify for because in in

428
00:20:55,390 --> 00:20:57,560
in those days, it wasn't like today where it's

429
00:20:57,839 --> 00:21:00,069
where you only have 20 cars, you know, we had

430
00:21:00,369 --> 00:21:04,650
an awful lot of cars and not many spaces on the grid. So we used to have qualifying,

431
00:21:05,229 --> 00:21:06,219
uh, to get

432
00:21:06,459 --> 00:21:08,489
into qualifying, if you see what I mean.

433
00:21:08,500 --> 00:21:11,859
In fact, sometimes it was even pre qualifying to allow you into practise.

434
00:21:12,300 --> 00:21:15,459
So it was a pretty disastrous year.

435
00:21:15,589 --> 00:21:16,239
Um,

436
00:21:16,869 --> 00:21:17,739
and and

437
00:21:18,530 --> 00:21:22,869
I think from memory, we only qualified for a couple of couple of races.

438
00:21:23,699 --> 00:21:25,140
But what was it like, though?

439
00:21:25,420 --> 00:21:27,380
I'm just trying to bring it to the current time.

440
00:21:27,390 --> 00:21:30,569
So you said you were obsessed with Formula One really into Formula One.

441
00:21:30,579 --> 00:21:31,859
You'd been in Formula Two before.

442
00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:35,920
Do you remember those moments when you first went to,

443
00:21:35,930 --> 00:21:38,489
like your first Formula One race as an actual

444
00:21:39,319 --> 00:21:42,219
part of the team? You know, when you go into the paddock was

445
00:21:42,459 --> 00:21:44,310
or had it become almost normal by then?

446
00:21:44,489 --> 00:21:45,060
Well,

447
00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:48,140
yeah, that's interesting, because in 81

448
00:21:49,260 --> 00:21:51,930
which was the first year Toleman were in Formula One,

449
00:21:51,939 --> 00:21:54,290
I didn't actually race engineer,

450
00:21:55,219 --> 00:21:55,680
uh,

451
00:21:56,750 --> 00:21:58,250
the Formula One cars that year.

452
00:21:59,050 --> 00:22:03,609
Uh, we had done a deal with Lola whereby they were going to produce the Formula Two car

453
00:22:04,790 --> 00:22:07,359
and because my job was sort of set up the

454
00:22:07,369 --> 00:22:09,739
wind tunnel model and all this sort of stuff because

455
00:22:10,010 --> 00:22:13,290
the first Formula One car had been built without a wind tunnel model, even,

456
00:22:14,170 --> 00:22:14,790
um,

457
00:22:15,500 --> 00:22:18,959
set up all the R and D facilities and things like that.

458
00:22:19,729 --> 00:22:21,770
I didn't have time to go to the Formula One races,

459
00:22:21,780 --> 00:22:25,939
but I did actually have to do the the support on the Formula two races.

460
00:22:25,949 --> 00:22:26,430
So

461
00:22:26,810 --> 00:22:30,229
that year I was running Stefan Johansson in the Formula Two car,

462
00:22:30,829 --> 00:22:31,500
um,

463
00:22:31,689 --> 00:22:32,369
and

464
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:35,609
really supporting Formula One at

465
00:22:35,739 --> 00:22:37,130
a at a distance.

466
00:22:37,510 --> 00:22:41,339
So the first Formula One race I I went to, um

467
00:22:41,739 --> 00:22:44,729
was actually the first race in 1982 in, uh

468
00:22:45,099 --> 00:22:45,780
in Brazil.

469
00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:48,099
And

470
00:22:49,339 --> 00:22:50,979
it's, you know, it's one of those.

471
00:22:51,569 --> 00:22:53,479
It's sort of serendipity, Really. We

472
00:22:54,949 --> 00:22:58,209
we went there. We were still using the 81 car.

473
00:22:58,810 --> 00:22:59,489
Um,

474
00:23:00,459 --> 00:23:01,219
we've done

475
00:23:01,449 --> 00:23:03,479
some modifications to it,

476
00:23:04,290 --> 00:23:07,750
uh, which we hope will make it a bit more competitive. We had

477
00:23:08,630 --> 00:23:11,130
just got the car in the wind tunnel at the end of

478
00:23:11,449 --> 00:23:12,770
the previous year.

479
00:23:13,089 --> 00:23:15,689
So we hoped, you know, we we were going to at least be

480
00:23:16,510 --> 00:23:17,439
qualifying.

481
00:23:18,260 --> 00:23:21,310
Uh, went to Brazil. We didn't qualify.

482
00:23:22,260 --> 00:23:25,160
And so there was a bit of a meeting on the Sunday

483
00:23:26,180 --> 00:23:30,910
and Ted Toleman and Alex Hawkridge said, Right, we’re going to change things.

484
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:32,229
Um,

485
00:23:33,109 --> 00:23:33,910
Rory

486
00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:38,060
and John Gentry. Who's the other engineers? Slash designer.

487
00:23:38,729 --> 00:23:41,380
Uh, it was decided they were going to stay back in the UK,

488
00:23:41,390 --> 00:23:43,959
and they were going to design a totally new car

489
00:23:44,500 --> 00:23:46,229
and I was going to run the team.

490
00:23:47,050 --> 00:23:47,699
So

491
00:23:48,229 --> 00:23:49,310
my first sort of

492
00:23:49,599 --> 00:23:50,439
really

493
00:23:50,829 --> 00:23:55,760
proper Formula One race, and by race two, I was sort of in charge So it was.

494
00:23:55,930 --> 00:23:59,339
It was really being thrown in the deep end, which is actually,

495
00:23:59,349 --> 00:24:00,349
there's nothing wrong with that.

496
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:00,640
It it

497
00:24:01,099 --> 00:24:01,869
What was it like?

498
00:24:02,180 --> 00:24:03,160
Was there a bit of a

499
00:24:03,790 --> 00:24:07,900
cos I can imagine the more established maybe teams or the people,

500
00:24:07,910 --> 00:24:09,069
and you come in there.

501
00:24:09,140 --> 00:24:12,079
I'm just trying to get a sense of what it was like in the paddock or the people around,

502
00:24:12,089 --> 00:24:12,290
you know?

503
00:24:12,300 --> 00:24:13,349
Was it? Well, it

504
00:24:13,650 --> 00:24:17,050
Firstly, it's very, very different. Yeah, the teams were much smaller. I.

505
00:24:17,060 --> 00:24:20,989
I said that when we started in Formula One, I was employee number 20.

506
00:24:21,079 --> 00:24:23,109
By the time we went racing, we were only

507
00:24:23,410 --> 00:24:25,319
in the sixties or something like that.

508
00:24:25,329 --> 00:24:28,329
In fact, I I've actually got an organisation chart,

509
00:24:28,650 --> 00:24:32,510
uh, somewhere from that year. And I think there are about 63 people in it, and

510
00:24:32,910 --> 00:24:34,829
that includes everyone. You know, That's the,

511
00:24:35,189 --> 00:24:37,579
um, the receptionist, the

512
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,030
truck driver, everything.

513
00:24:40,709 --> 00:24:41,300
Um

514
00:24:42,349 --> 00:24:44,369
so the teams were quite small.

515
00:24:44,380 --> 00:24:47,050
They were nowhere near as professional as they are now.

516
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:48,050
Uh,

517
00:24:48,430 --> 00:24:51,069
there's a lot more sort of camaraderie.

518
00:24:51,079 --> 00:24:55,209
The people were pretty friendly and and of course, we weren't a threat, you know.

519
00:24:55,310 --> 00:25:00,770
In fact, we were a joke. So it it it wasn't as if people, um,

520
00:25:01,609 --> 00:25:02,859
were against us.

521
00:25:03,329 --> 00:25:07,530
There was a bit of friction because this was the time when there was

522
00:25:07,729 --> 00:25:11,050
what was known as the FISA–FOCA war. So FISA was

523
00:25:11,479 --> 00:25:13,920
the predecessor of the FIA.

524
00:25:14,300 --> 00:25:18,609
Um they were supporting the sort of manufacturers, the Ferrari Renault,

525
00:25:19,020 --> 00:25:21,380
Um, people like that were in the the

526
00:25:21,550 --> 00:25:22,189
FISA camp.

527
00:25:22,839 --> 00:25:23,290
FOCA

528
00:25:23,439 --> 00:25:26,099
was a Formula One constructors association which

529
00:25:26,109 --> 00:25:28,660
Bernie was just sort of taking over.

530
00:25:28,670 --> 00:25:30,510
And these were all the people who were running

531
00:25:30,729 --> 00:25:33,540
essentially the the the sort of, um,

532
00:25:33,660 --> 00:25:37,520
the cars with the DFV in the back. So, you know, you could go and buy a DFV.

533
00:25:37,790 --> 00:25:38,989
You could buy a a

534
00:25:39,489 --> 00:25:42,739
Hewland gearbox and, you know, you could build your monocoque

535
00:25:43,050 --> 00:25:47,510
and go go racing, which is what a lot of British teams were doing.

536
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:49,199
So there was a bit of a split between that,

537
00:25:49,839 --> 00:25:51,540
and we were on the the FISA

538
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,459
side and we'd gone with the turbo engine and everything,

539
00:25:54,469 --> 00:25:56,780
which was one of the differentiators.

540
00:25:57,300 --> 00:26:00,650
So there was a little bit of friction in that respect, but but still,

541
00:26:00,660 --> 00:26:03,030
you know it it it was ok, but it It,

542
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:04,390
You know, the

543
00:26:04,739 --> 00:26:08,819
the professionalism I'd see in a formula Ford team today was

544
00:26:08,829 --> 00:26:11,439
above what we had in Formula One in those days.

545
00:26:11,449 --> 00:26:11,689
You you

546
00:26:12,020 --> 00:26:15,479
you worked under an awning that was side of the truck. You

547
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,199
you didn't have motor homes or anything like that. Um,

548
00:26:19,420 --> 00:26:21,959
you didn't have these fancy pit wall stands. You had to,

549
00:26:22,209 --> 00:26:26,569
you know, you just stood by the pit wall with a stopwatch and and things. So it was a

550
00:26:27,079 --> 00:26:28,619
totally different world.

551
00:26:29,630 --> 00:26:32,310
So then, um, how did that, then? Progress on.

552
00:26:32,319 --> 00:26:35,050
So was that now in Witney that where was the

553
00:26:35,199 --> 00:26:38,739
It was in Witney. That's right, Witney in Oxfordshire.

554
00:26:39,189 --> 00:26:39,869
Um,

555
00:26:40,250 --> 00:26:41,829
yeah, we We had, uh,

556
00:26:43,459 --> 00:26:47,939
3000 square feet when we started, and then we took over about another 2000.

557
00:26:47,949 --> 00:26:50,250
So, you know, tiny little units and

558
00:26:50,410 --> 00:26:53,160
that was everything. You know, that was manufacturing. That was

559
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:58,319
the race team that was R and D. It was inspection. It was buying.

560
00:26:58,329 --> 00:26:59,640
It was all cramped in there.

561
00:27:00,150 --> 00:27:01,459
Um, I mean, over the years,

562
00:27:01,469 --> 00:27:04,119
we took on different units in in Witney and

563
00:27:04,130 --> 00:27:06,709
sort of expanded around there until we built the

564
00:27:07,069 --> 00:27:11,209
the new factory at Enstone But by that time, you know, Toleman had become Benetton,

565
00:27:11,219 --> 00:27:13,390
and there was a bit more money in in things.

566
00:27:13,540 --> 00:27:17,199
I had a broader question to us at that point, though, if you look now,

567
00:27:17,750 --> 00:27:20,989
even though Formula One is arguably one of the biggest sports in the world

568
00:27:21,819 --> 00:27:23,040
tonnes of money

569
00:27:23,369 --> 00:27:26,949
there is an unusual location of teams

570
00:27:27,189 --> 00:27:27,540
in

571
00:27:28,250 --> 00:27:30,579
50 mile radius of where we are now.

572
00:27:31,510 --> 00:27:32,530
Do you know how that

573
00:27:33,010 --> 00:27:34,609
started? Why that?

574
00:27:34,859 --> 00:27:37,010
Yeah. People call it Motorsport Valley,

575
00:27:37,290 --> 00:27:41,400
and people have studied it. People have written about it. Um,

576
00:27:42,339 --> 00:27:44,319
the Motorsport Industry Association,

577
00:27:44,329 --> 00:27:47,380
the MIA actually coined the phrase Motorsport Valley,

578
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,520
and I think it really started.

579
00:27:50,689 --> 00:27:51,219
Um,

580
00:27:51,869 --> 00:27:53,949
from March now. March were,

581
00:27:54,829 --> 00:28:00,079
uh I guess going back to the seventies, even sixties. Maybe they they, um

582
00:28:00,449 --> 00:28:01,760
They were the largest

583
00:28:02,390 --> 00:28:04,479
racing car manufacturer in the world.

584
00:28:04,489 --> 00:28:09,290
So if you wanted a Formula three car, a Formula two car sports car, you went to march,

585
00:28:09,300 --> 00:28:10,770
they made these cars.

586
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:12,099
And

587
00:28:13,180 --> 00:28:14,640
I think that then,

588
00:28:15,150 --> 00:28:15,719
um,

589
00:28:16,949 --> 00:28:18,520
that really spawned, uh,

590
00:28:18,530 --> 00:28:21,209
a lot of subcontractors around people who knew

591
00:28:21,219 --> 00:28:22,869
the sort of standards that were needed.

592
00:28:23,209 --> 00:28:26,689
People left march and they started up on on their own

593
00:28:27,180 --> 00:28:27,920
um

594
00:28:28,380 --> 00:28:29,170
so it

595
00:28:29,530 --> 00:28:32,969
it sort of grew organically if you like. So

596
00:28:33,569 --> 00:28:36,930
then if you if you wanted to build a racing car, well, actually,

597
00:28:36,939 --> 00:28:38,500
you might as well be in in sort of

598
00:28:38,510 --> 00:28:41,609
Oxfordshire and Northamptonshire and that sort of area.

599
00:28:42,079 --> 00:28:46,579
Um, because that's where the skilled workers were and it was easier to get them and

600
00:28:46,959 --> 00:28:48,180
and these things, then

601
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:49,959
they grow

602
00:28:50,339 --> 00:28:52,209
said organically. It's actually virally.

603
00:28:52,219 --> 00:28:55,699
They they they grow because, you know, one generates another

604
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:57,219
and, um,

605
00:28:57,349 --> 00:28:58,569
it's still true today.

606
00:28:58,579 --> 00:29:01,060
I think that, uh, you know,

607
00:29:01,069 --> 00:29:04,130
if you if you want to build racing cars and you want the right people,

608
00:29:04,140 --> 00:29:05,420
you want to be in that area,

609
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:06,459
Um,

610
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:10,920
I mean, many years later, when I was doing consultancy work for

611
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:11,420
Marussia—

612
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:12,680
well, Manor—

613
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,390
when they entered Formula One, they were based up in Yorkshire,

614
00:29:15,869 --> 00:29:18,040
and so when they took me on as a consultant,

615
00:29:18,050 --> 00:29:19,790
the first thing I did was move them down

616
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,380
to Oxfordshire because then you could get the,

617
00:29:22,699 --> 00:29:24,699
uh, the employees that you wanted.

618
00:29:25,489 --> 00:29:28,420
Yeah, it wasn't an example. Maybe I'm

619
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:30,270
mis, uh, misremembering this, but

620
00:29:30,699 --> 00:29:32,790
I thought there was an issue with Caterham.

621
00:29:33,109 --> 00:29:35,040
Something about they were in Norfolk but they

622
00:29:35,050 --> 00:29:37,369
were struggling to recruit people and they moved

623
00:29:37,500 --> 00:29:37,699
up. Am I

624
00:29:37,819 --> 00:29:38,329
right on that

625
00:29:38,439 --> 00:29:40,979
one? Yeah, that's right. Um, yeah, they were. They were

626
00:29:41,619 --> 00:29:44,170
originally did start up in Norfolk. Of course.

627
00:29:44,180 --> 00:29:48,619
Lotus had been up in Norfolk in the old days, but, um, that was really pre

628
00:29:49,020 --> 00:29:49,829
Motorsport Valley.

629
00:29:50,630 --> 00:29:53,560
Uh, yeah. And Caterham moved down to Leafield,

630
00:29:53,699 --> 00:29:54,910
um, just

631
00:29:55,130 --> 00:29:57,689
three miles from Witney, actually, and and Oxford,

632
00:29:58,079 --> 00:29:59,280
Uh, and,

633
00:29:59,380 --> 00:29:59,390
uh,

634
00:29:59,829 --> 00:30:02,329
yeah, suddenly it became a lot easier.

635
00:30:02,589 --> 00:30:04,359
And, you know, even the

636
00:30:04,550 --> 00:30:06,010
even Ferrari

637
00:30:06,469 --> 00:30:08,209
have had a UK base

638
00:30:08,369 --> 00:30:10,959
for for many, many years. And, uh,

639
00:30:12,219 --> 00:30:12,709
yeah,

640
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:14,750
uh, the sort of

641
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,469
people know about the Guildford Technical Centre when

642
00:30:18,479 --> 00:30:20,420
John Barnard was there and a lot of the

643
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:22,930
work was done done there.

644
00:30:23,410 --> 00:30:28,800
But in fact, they've had a research group based in Oxford for many, many years.

645
00:30:29,569 --> 00:30:33,000
I just find it interesting just how this centre or thing,

646
00:30:33,010 --> 00:30:35,239
and any team that's tried to almost go away

647
00:30:35,729 --> 00:30:36,829
doesn't really seem

648
00:30:37,180 --> 00:30:37,540
to

649
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:38,550
even like has,

650
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,280
you know, it's Banbury Way, isn't it? Has

651
00:30:41,430 --> 00:30:42,290
are in Banbury.

652
00:30:44,010 --> 00:30:48,670
Yeah, it's true. And and it goes beyond that, you know, even the FIA based in Geneva,

653
00:30:49,069 --> 00:30:51,770
They find it difficult to recruit the experienced

654
00:30:51,989 --> 00:30:53,630
FON people. And, uh,

655
00:30:54,060 --> 00:30:57,650
of course now a number of them are actually UK based.

656
00:30:57,660 --> 00:31:01,550
So the aerodynamic group that you and I worked with, um,

657
00:31:02,099 --> 00:31:03,670
when they moved from

658
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,599
Formula One from Formula One management to the FIA.

659
00:31:08,020 --> 00:31:10,680
Uh, they didn't go to Geneva. They stayed in the UK.

660
00:31:10,859 --> 00:31:11,489
Mhm.

661
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:13,430
Do you think? I mean, um, O

662
00:31:13,939 --> 00:31:16,310
on a kind of related note, a little bit, You know,

663
00:31:16,319 --> 00:31:19,069
the expansion of Formula One into the US,

664
00:31:19,339 --> 00:31:22,060
arguably things like drive to survive and others.

665
00:31:22,069 --> 00:31:25,300
Now, I work for an American company. I remember

666
00:31:26,530 --> 00:31:30,449
in 2020 Not many people really knew about Formula One.

667
00:31:30,459 --> 00:31:32,170
I would speak to my colleagues in the West Coast.

668
00:31:32,180 --> 00:31:34,750
It was kind of like, Yeah, we can't know about it, but it wasn't

669
00:31:35,050 --> 00:31:36,430
fast forward to now,

670
00:31:36,709 --> 00:31:39,209
and they're obsessed with it, you know? They're really into it.

671
00:31:39,410 --> 00:31:43,589
The logical conclusion, Uh, logical thing of that, I guess, is around teams

672
00:31:44,020 --> 00:31:46,449
Do you think there will ever be an opportunity

673
00:31:46,699 --> 00:31:49,369
where Formula One teams can be more

674
00:31:49,719 --> 00:31:54,010
based out of the US? Or do you think there's a just a fundamental challenge,

675
00:31:54,829 --> 00:31:56,079
you know, beyond has,

676
00:31:56,209 --> 00:31:58,010
you know, really being successful.

677
00:31:58,140 --> 00:32:00,939
I don't think we can be complacent in the UK.

678
00:32:01,290 --> 00:32:01,770
Um

679
00:32:02,449 --> 00:32:04,260
you know that that large

680
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,910
racing car manufacturing base that we had has

681
00:32:10,229 --> 00:32:11,500
more or less gone?

682
00:32:11,930 --> 00:32:12,420
Um,

683
00:32:13,140 --> 00:32:16,030
the largest manufacturer of racing cars now is

684
00:32:16,219 --> 00:32:17,349
Dallara in Italy.

685
00:32:17,849 --> 00:32:22,709
Um, a lot of the sort of formula regional cars are made in France. Um,

686
00:32:24,489 --> 00:32:25,189
so

687
00:32:25,469 --> 00:32:27,930
we shouldn't ever be complacent about it.

688
00:32:28,229 --> 00:32:30,439
But I, I would say at

689
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:35,660
the moment it's still quite difficult for the teams that aren't UK based.

690
00:32:35,969 --> 00:32:36,849
Um, you know, S

691
00:32:37,329 --> 00:32:38,790
in in Switzerland.

692
00:32:39,439 --> 00:32:44,069
Um, Toro Rosso, who are in Italy and Italy, has its own little

693
00:32:44,209 --> 00:32:45,390
Motorsport Valley.

694
00:32:45,729 --> 00:32:47,339
But even they are moving,

695
00:32:47,469 --> 00:32:51,199
uh, their design group over to the UK. In fact, have moved a

696
00:32:51,500 --> 00:32:55,140
lot of their aero people to the UK.

697
00:32:55,579 --> 00:32:56,209
Um,

698
00:32:56,650 --> 00:32:59,359
just because, you know, that's where the talent pool is.

699
00:32:59,839 --> 00:33:00,500
Um,

700
00:33:01,109 --> 00:33:01,699
so

701
00:33:03,359 --> 00:33:06,229
can it go global? I mean, it's a global sport,

702
00:33:06,670 --> 00:33:07,219
but,

703
00:33:07,989 --> 00:33:08,839
uh,

704
00:33:08,989 --> 00:33:13,859
I see no reason why it couldn't be, uh, have teams in the USA because

705
00:33:14,410 --> 00:33:19,339
USA has a good racing heritage. And again, they they have this sort of subcontract,

706
00:33:19,780 --> 00:33:24,319
uh, base. You know, supplier, base and supply chain is good there,

707
00:33:24,619 --> 00:33:27,489
so absolutely no reason why it couldn't happen.

708
00:33:28,030 --> 00:33:28,709
Uh,

709
00:33:29,099 --> 00:33:32,069
these days, out of the 24 races,

710
00:33:32,170 --> 00:33:32,189
the

711
00:33:32,739 --> 00:33:36,640
only a third of them really are in Europe. So there's no

712
00:33:36,959 --> 00:33:39,369
there's no logistic reason for it.

713
00:33:40,119 --> 00:33:40,800
Um,

714
00:33:41,150 --> 00:33:41,660
and

715
00:33:41,829 --> 00:33:45,579
race cars don't really come back to base between races anymore,

716
00:33:45,810 --> 00:33:48,459
Uh, because the the schedule is so hectic.

717
00:33:48,780 --> 00:33:49,459
So, uh, I.

718
00:33:49,469 --> 00:33:54,239
I don't think the geographical location matters much in terms of logistics

719
00:33:55,209 --> 00:33:59,219
a little bit in terms of supply chain, but there's a good supply chain in Italy.

720
00:33:59,229 --> 00:34:01,300
There's a good supply chain in the USA,

721
00:34:01,969 --> 00:34:02,589
Um,

722
00:34:02,689 --> 00:34:05,709
so it then comes down to the, you know, the talent pool.

723
00:34:05,959 --> 00:34:08,938
Yeah, I just I don't know if you've noticed that quite a few of my

724
00:34:09,139 --> 00:34:11,560
friends or friends of friends

725
00:34:12,149 --> 00:34:12,780
have

726
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:15,449
almost left Formula One some of them,

727
00:34:15,899 --> 00:34:18,129
and moved to work at places like Tesla who

728
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:19,989
have gone out to California.

729
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:22,978
And there's there's actually a lot If you look at these Tesla's rivian.

730
00:34:23,050 --> 00:34:24,750
There's an amazing Formula One

731
00:34:24,870 --> 00:34:27,790
sort of, uh, group of people who moved over there.

732
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:31,780
And that's why part of me was wondering, would a Formula One team ever actually

733
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:33,458
base out of there?

734
00:34:33,750 --> 00:34:37,449
Yeah, I think that's a slightly different thing, because, um

735
00:34:38,350 --> 00:34:41,418
uh for example, Peter Jones, who used to work with us,

736
00:34:41,429 --> 00:34:44,458
went to work for Ford in California as an AERODYNAMICIST.

737
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:45,530
And

738
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:51,918
I think part of the reason we're seeing a bit of a migration now is that is the cost cap,

739
00:34:51,929 --> 00:34:53,780
which was introduced into Formula One.

740
00:34:54,469 --> 00:34:56,668
So there was a time preco

741
00:34:56,850 --> 00:35:01,610
cap when Formula One wasn't sustainable and teams were were

742
00:35:01,959 --> 00:35:03,850
going broke. Teams were

743
00:35:04,199 --> 00:35:05,729
living on the breadline,

744
00:35:05,949 --> 00:35:09,050
um, really struggling to be competitive, et cetera.

745
00:35:09,449 --> 00:35:11,469
Part of the reason for that was that actually,

746
00:35:11,479 --> 00:35:14,219
you could earn a damn good salary in Formula One.

747
00:35:14,550 --> 00:35:17,919
and engineers were getting paid much more than they get paid.

748
00:35:18,090 --> 00:35:19,330
Working for

749
00:35:20,510 --> 00:35:23,909
these sort of exotic car companies or even people

750
00:35:23,919 --> 00:35:27,209
like Dyson Dyson were taking a lot of aerodynamicists

751
00:35:27,469 --> 00:35:28,290
recently,

752
00:35:29,010 --> 00:35:29,270
the Costa

753
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:31,110
came along, and

754
00:35:31,409 --> 00:35:36,209
there was a bit of a shift in the profile of Of the teams,

755
00:35:36,750 --> 00:35:37,270
the

756
00:35:38,590 --> 00:35:40,840
the sort of more expensive guys were

757
00:35:41,379 --> 00:35:43,969
harder to justify to have so many of them.

758
00:35:43,979 --> 00:35:46,370
You know, a lot of graduates are coming in on much lower

759
00:35:46,540 --> 00:35:47,929
salaries. You could have

760
00:35:48,070 --> 00:35:52,889
a lot of graduates working for the price of one of these more senior engineers. So,

761
00:35:53,179 --> 00:35:56,010
uh, I think a lot of the senior engineers said, OK, you know,

762
00:35:56,020 --> 00:35:57,870
we've had our time in Formula One.

763
00:35:57,879 --> 00:36:02,350
We'll move on to other things. So I, I would say it's more to do with the

764
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:04,189
the cost cap than anything else.

765
00:36:04,879 --> 00:36:06,219
Yeah, which I guess

766
00:36:06,879 --> 00:36:11,379
in some ways it's good of graduate students that they're getting a chance

767
00:36:11,649 --> 00:36:15,699
to go to, sort of get more easily in, or there's more desire to have them.

768
00:36:18,629 --> 00:36:19,260
Yeah, I

769
00:36:19,500 --> 00:36:21,489
think I think that's true. You know,

770
00:36:21,610 --> 00:36:26,689
there was always a place for the graduates because the teams are expanding so much.

771
00:36:26,699 --> 00:36:27,050
Um,

772
00:36:28,199 --> 00:36:32,149
yeah, going back to my my sort of experience when when we were at Benetton and

773
00:36:32,250 --> 00:36:33,600
we were working out of

774
00:36:33,790 --> 00:36:37,750
these sort of ever expanding industrial units in Witney. Then we

775
00:36:38,159 --> 00:36:40,209
we built the the new factory at ends,

776
00:36:40,649 --> 00:36:42,379
the factory that Alpine are in now,

777
00:36:43,389 --> 00:36:43,889
Um,

778
00:36:45,139 --> 00:36:46,639
and I remember when we built that

779
00:36:48,350 --> 00:36:52,570
going into the design office and thinking, How on earth are we going to fill this?

780
00:36:52,580 --> 00:36:54,129
You know, it is just enormous.

781
00:36:54,909 --> 00:36:58,649
And I guess at that time we were about 250 people

782
00:36:59,270 --> 00:36:59,300
at

783
00:36:59,459 --> 00:37:00,389
Benetton

784
00:37:01,639 --> 00:37:02,139
and

785
00:37:02,830 --> 00:37:04,199
I've been over there

786
00:37:04,310 --> 00:37:06,449
recently quite often, actually.

787
00:37:06,590 --> 00:37:07,610
And, um,

788
00:37:08,590 --> 00:37:12,330
firstly, you'd hardly recognise that that old design office,

789
00:37:12,340 --> 00:37:14,530
because it's been pushed in every direction.

790
00:37:14,540 --> 00:37:16,300
There are so many new buildings

791
00:37:16,469 --> 00:37:17,010
there.

792
00:37:17,429 --> 00:37:19,020
Uh, and of course, the teams are,

793
00:37:19,419 --> 00:37:21,639
uh, are employing around 1000 people.

794
00:37:21,649 --> 00:37:24,850
So in that expansion, there was always plenty of room for the graduates.

795
00:37:25,479 --> 00:37:26,050
Um,

796
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:29,379
of course it did. Sort of Asymptote it

797
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,649
at a point where you know, they they didn't need to grow anymore,

798
00:37:32,659 --> 00:37:35,270
Couldn't afford to grow anymore, Didn't want to grow anymore.

799
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:39,709
Um, because it gets very, very difficult to manage these these big teams.

800
00:37:40,379 --> 00:37:41,020
Um,

801
00:37:42,750 --> 00:37:43,570
but I guess

802
00:37:44,620 --> 00:37:48,199
I guess now, you know, the graduates can get in for a different reason.

803
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:49,760
Probably.

804
00:37:49,770 --> 00:37:53,850
It's a little bit more difficult for them to to rise up through the food chain.

805
00:37:54,179 --> 00:37:56,669
Uh, and it'll be interesting to see in

806
00:37:56,919 --> 00:38:00,350
in 10 years time just what the the scene looks like.

807
00:38:01,050 --> 00:38:02,479
Yeah, I guess. Um,

808
00:38:03,419 --> 00:38:05,469
you know myself and probably others have

809
00:38:06,889 --> 00:38:09,909
of our generation in some ways are slightly jealous

810
00:38:10,350 --> 00:38:12,110
of your generation that

811
00:38:12,679 --> 00:38:14,300
you probably had it harder

812
00:38:14,419 --> 00:38:16,070
in a way cos there was less people,

813
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:18,899
but it seemed because there was less people.

814
00:38:19,350 --> 00:38:20,110
It was

815
00:38:20,530 --> 00:38:22,530
if you ha, if you have a talent,

816
00:38:22,850 --> 00:38:26,350
you can take on more responsibility. And there was more

817
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:30,149
ability to to become a leader of a team Where I guess now,

818
00:38:31,489 --> 00:38:32,129
you know, as you say,

819
00:38:32,139 --> 00:38:34,979
if you've got that many people statistically the chance of a

820
00:38:34,989 --> 00:38:37,909
graduate making it all the way up to a technical director.

821
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:40,149
Yeah, I think that's probably

822
00:38:40,580 --> 00:38:42,739
true. Up to a point. But

823
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:46,100
I think the biggest difference is that

824
00:38:46,550 --> 00:38:49,540
when I started, you had to be a multidisciplinary engineer.

825
00:38:50,169 --> 00:38:54,300
You know, I. I studied mechanical engineering, automotive engineering.

826
00:38:54,310 --> 00:38:56,189
I specialised in vehicle dynamics.

827
00:38:56,669 --> 00:38:59,870
Uh, you know, I did the other courses. I did structures.

828
00:38:59,879 --> 00:39:03,270
I did engines and transmissions and things like that, but but

829
00:39:03,439 --> 00:39:04,899
not of a great deal.

830
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:07,300
But when I went into the workplace,

831
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:09,550
I really did have to

832
00:39:09,729 --> 00:39:12,550
teach myself, Um, you know, from that

833
00:39:12,750 --> 00:39:14,189
day, walking into that

834
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:18,870
porter cabin in 1976 and realising there was a drawing board there

835
00:39:19,139 --> 00:39:21,590
and no one else and I had to just get on with it,

836
00:39:22,149 --> 00:39:25,459
uh, right through to you know, my time in Formula One.

837
00:39:26,489 --> 00:39:27,659
so with Toleman

838
00:39:28,050 --> 00:39:31,199
OK, we need to go. Wind tunnel testing. How do we do it?

839
00:39:31,399 --> 00:39:34,060
I don't know. Let's go and find out. So you

840
00:39:34,340 --> 00:39:35,320
go and find out

841
00:39:35,500 --> 00:39:39,610
now. I remember in those days, actually, um, I'd said earlier we didn't really have

842
00:39:40,389 --> 00:39:43,090
access to computing facilities.

843
00:39:43,830 --> 00:39:47,770
And I remember in the early eighties, uh, while we were in America,

844
00:39:48,110 --> 00:39:49,030
I bought

845
00:39:49,149 --> 00:39:51,270
my first computer, which was a

846
00:39:51,429 --> 00:39:56,810
Hewlett Packard. An HP 85 1st sort of little desktop.

847
00:39:57,100 --> 00:39:57,800
Um

848
00:39:57,949 --> 00:40:01,649
01 of the very first desktops. This is pre PC.

849
00:40:01,899 --> 00:40:02,919
You know, people

850
00:40:03,219 --> 00:40:05,820
might think there wasn't a world before,

851
00:40:06,260 --> 00:40:10,010
uh, before IBM came along with with personal computers, but

852
00:40:10,270 --> 00:40:12,810
it was and it it was, um

853
00:40:13,510 --> 00:40:18,449
it was a device that had its own little screen on it. Little thermal printer on it.

854
00:40:19,370 --> 00:40:21,909
It had, uh, 32 K

855
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:25,750
of memory, which I expanded to 64.

856
00:40:26,330 --> 00:40:29,750
I got this thing back to the UK, and I thought, What am I going to do with it? So

857
00:40:30,729 --> 00:40:33,189
I'd written a suspension programme

858
00:40:33,729 --> 00:40:37,389
while I was at at at Hawk. So I put that on it,

859
00:40:38,219 --> 00:40:41,560
um, programming in basic, because that was the only language on it

860
00:40:42,739 --> 00:40:45,919
and decided to mechanise the wind tunnel. Now,

861
00:40:46,649 --> 00:40:49,020
if I'd known what I was doing, I would never have done it.

862
00:40:49,270 --> 00:40:51,860
But it seemed like the right thing to do because, you know,

863
00:40:51,870 --> 00:40:54,350
we had a manual balance on on the winter.

864
00:40:55,270 --> 00:40:55,810
Um,

865
00:40:56,290 --> 00:40:59,090
but it had some load cells and put some load cells on it.

866
00:40:59,100 --> 00:41:03,409
And then I got an I triple E interface that I could plug into the

867
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:09,340
into the HP 85. And I could start reading, uh, these load cells and things like that.

868
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:12,510
And this was in the days when you know you you were programming.

869
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,590
You come across a problem, you could phone up Hewlett Packard and say, Hey,

870
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:17,459
I've got this problem and they say, Oh, try this.

871
00:41:17,469 --> 00:41:19,810
Try that. You know, it was a different world,

872
00:41:20,409 --> 00:41:20,790
But

873
00:41:21,610 --> 00:41:25,100
the fact was that, you know, I was able to learn that,

874
00:41:25,870 --> 00:41:26,479
um,

875
00:41:28,169 --> 00:41:29,550
later on, you know, when

876
00:41:30,439 --> 00:41:30,850
when

877
00:41:31,270 --> 00:41:33,419
aerodynamics was really becoming the thing,

878
00:41:33,429 --> 00:41:36,120
I had to sort of teach myself aerodynamics.

879
00:41:37,639 --> 00:41:41,939
I was one of the early adopters of electronics on the cars, um,

880
00:41:42,340 --> 00:41:46,120
building data acquisition systems. I wasn't an electronics engineer.

881
00:41:46,129 --> 00:41:47,739
I was a mechanical engineer,

882
00:41:48,479 --> 00:41:50,850
but I appreciated how

883
00:41:51,610 --> 00:41:53,350
I could exploit electronics.

884
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:57,270
So I needed to learn a bit about them and I needed to employ some people. And so

885
00:41:57,590 --> 00:41:58,989
I really, you know,

886
00:41:59,219 --> 00:42:01,989
right through my career, I've had to learn

887
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:03,350
new things.

888
00:42:03,790 --> 00:42:04,510
And,

889
00:42:06,350 --> 00:42:11,760
you know, II, I do talk about, you know, my my my hobby being knowledge acquisition.

890
00:42:11,770 --> 00:42:12,770
Because I just

891
00:42:12,969 --> 00:42:16,610
love learning new things. And I think that's what keeps you going.

892
00:42:17,389 --> 00:42:19,810
Unfortunately, in Formula One these days,

893
00:42:20,830 --> 00:42:21,370
um,

894
00:42:22,199 --> 00:42:26,419
we have some really, really highly qualified, really clever people,

895
00:42:27,020 --> 00:42:28,540
but sometimes very specialised.

896
00:42:28,860 --> 00:42:31,760
So when you talk about this sort of progression and how do you get

897
00:42:31,770 --> 00:42:35,050
to be a technical director or chief technical officer or something like that?

898
00:42:35,610 --> 00:42:36,090
Uh,

899
00:42:37,010 --> 00:42:39,979
there are some people, you know, I. I could name them

900
00:42:40,260 --> 00:42:41,689
straight away, who

901
00:42:41,959 --> 00:42:43,590
I think absolutely

902
00:42:44,149 --> 00:42:45,629
have the intellect to do it.

903
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:50,540
They have the engineering ability to do it. What they don't have is the bandwidth.

904
00:42:51,050 --> 00:42:53,110
And there are plenty of people who

905
00:42:53,379 --> 00:42:56,179
know they're subject to the nth degree,

906
00:42:56,189 --> 00:42:59,929
but they don't necessarily know how to make a car go fast.

907
00:43:00,649 --> 00:43:01,050
And

908
00:43:02,209 --> 00:43:04,090
I know you're an aerodynamicist,

909
00:43:04,100 --> 00:43:06,729
so I'll try not to be too rude about aerodynamicist.

910
00:43:06,739 --> 00:43:07,510
But,

911
00:43:08,649 --> 00:43:11,699
you know, there, there is a thing with aerodynamicist where

912
00:43:12,159 --> 00:43:15,570
all that matters to them is that the best number they can get in the wind tunnel

913
00:43:16,370 --> 00:43:17,030
and

914
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:21,949
one of the things that I I lecture to students is I try and

915
00:43:22,350 --> 00:43:24,469
lecture in the application

916
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:27,139
of what they're learning into the real world. So

917
00:43:28,300 --> 00:43:29,439
a single number

918
00:43:29,659 --> 00:43:34,030
getting a C_L of 5.5 on your car.

919
00:43:35,090 --> 00:43:37,360
That's not what matters. What matters is

920
00:43:37,510 --> 00:43:40,080
getting a map that you can use, uh,

921
00:43:40,090 --> 00:43:44,879
so that the car can be set up so that the car has good characteristics,

922
00:43:44,889 --> 00:43:46,270
where wherever it is

923
00:43:48,020 --> 00:43:50,580
again. And I'm not getting an aerodynamicist.

924
00:43:50,590 --> 00:43:53,439
But, you know, I've had I've had people, in fact,

925
00:43:53,610 --> 00:43:55,540
even quite recently, who have come along.

926
00:43:55,550 --> 00:43:59,229
And they said, Look, we've got this swing profile. It's absolutely fantastic.

927
00:43:59,860 --> 00:44:02,060
It will produce X Newtons of load

928
00:44:02,250 --> 00:44:03,959
and you look at it and you say OK, so

929
00:44:04,199 --> 00:44:06,000
what structure are you going to put in there

930
00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:10,909
to support this X Newtons of load and they go, Oh, yeah, it's a bit thin, isn't it?

931
00:44:10,919 --> 00:44:12,270
Yeah, it is a bit thin,

932
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:14,770
so you know you need

933
00:44:15,209 --> 00:44:19,760
if you want to get to a technical director level. If you want to get to a CTO level,

934
00:44:20,629 --> 00:44:21,810
you need to

935
00:44:22,139 --> 00:44:22,889
know

936
00:44:23,129 --> 00:44:25,719
how to make the compromises. And you do that by

937
00:44:25,850 --> 00:44:30,370
by understanding the the total car. You need to know what gives you performance

938
00:44:31,139 --> 00:44:31,600
and,

939
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:34,750
you know, for for any

940
00:44:34,989 --> 00:44:36,620
engineering problem,

941
00:44:37,689 --> 00:44:42,189
which in our case is a set of Formula One regulations, there is a singular answer.

942
00:44:43,229 --> 00:44:45,860
We never, ever get to that singular answer.

943
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:50,209
But the guy who is most successful is the one who knows how to compromise.

944
00:44:50,219 --> 00:44:52,679
He knows which compromises to make he knows,

945
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:57,370
and that that compromise might be a financial one. It might be a, um,

946
00:44:58,409 --> 00:45:00,010
a pure engineering one.

947
00:45:01,510 --> 00:45:05,709
it might be a resource one human resource, you know, just knowing

948
00:45:05,949 --> 00:45:07,550
how to bring everything together,

949
00:45:08,199 --> 00:45:12,780
but fully understanding what gives you performance on the car on the track,

950
00:45:12,790 --> 00:45:14,179
under every condition.

951
00:45:15,030 --> 00:45:16,139
Well, that's one.

952
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:18,389
I really would love your insight in this.

953
00:45:18,399 --> 00:45:21,639
So maybe using examples from, you know, the Benetton days,

954
00:45:22,310 --> 00:45:22,889
Um,

955
00:45:23,780 --> 00:45:25,320
I always say to people,

956
00:45:25,439 --> 00:45:26,639
it seems

957
00:45:29,290 --> 00:45:30,300
all in a way

958
00:45:30,429 --> 00:45:32,870
that you can have a team doing amazing

959
00:45:33,639 --> 00:45:34,540
for several years

960
00:45:35,429 --> 00:45:36,129
and then

961
00:45:37,129 --> 00:45:37,870
do terrible

962
00:45:39,459 --> 00:45:41,199
and I often wonder, is this a

963
00:45:41,469 --> 00:45:45,199
something just to do with not fully understanding just the

964
00:45:45,209 --> 00:45:48,560
immense complexity of turbulent flow over a car and all.

965
00:45:48,570 --> 00:45:50,419
It's just not a solving problem.

966
00:45:50,919 --> 00:45:53,199
Is it a people problem? Like why?

967
00:45:53,669 --> 00:45:55,610
Why is Formula One not just, uh,

968
00:45:55,959 --> 00:46:00,189
sorted? We know how to design a car where some teams come out, so it's it's awful. Now,

969
00:46:00,929 --> 00:46:01,909
how could that happen?

970
00:46:02,129 --> 00:46:02,729
Do you have

971
00:46:03,590 --> 00:46:06,840
time? Yeah, I know exactly what you're getting out and been through it and

972
00:46:07,500 --> 00:46:12,270
it both ways. You know, I think when I went to Williams,

973
00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:13,949
Williams had been

974
00:46:14,689 --> 00:46:19,510
ninth in the championship. I attending teams for a few years. And

975
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:22,800
I remember Frank saying to me when I went there, he said,

976
00:46:22,810 --> 00:46:24,780
I want you to turn the nine upside down.

977
00:46:24,790 --> 00:46:25,110
What?

978
00:46:25,310 --> 00:46:26,729
You've got to aim at six.

979
00:46:27,590 --> 00:46:28,090
And

980
00:46:29,060 --> 00:46:29,610
yeah, I did.

981
00:46:29,620 --> 00:46:34,399
I did the normal sort of 100 day thing, you know, 100 days of looking at it all.

982
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:37,439
And I thought, I think we can do a bit better than that.

983
00:46:37,649 --> 00:46:38,120
And

984
00:46:38,810 --> 00:46:41,770
and I realised that, you know, I had a lot of very clever people there,

985
00:46:41,780 --> 00:46:42,989
some very good people,

986
00:46:43,959 --> 00:46:44,409
but

987
00:46:44,699 --> 00:46:47,020
they weren't working as a team.

988
00:46:47,989 --> 00:46:50,129
They didn't know what the objective was.

989
00:46:50,409 --> 00:46:53,699
And there was this terrible culture there, um,

990
00:46:54,209 --> 00:46:56,810
I guess two aspects to the culture that there was

991
00:46:56,820 --> 00:46:58,929
that this is the way we've always done it,

992
00:46:58,949 --> 00:46:59,580
which,

993
00:46:59,699 --> 00:47:00,649
you know, you can't

994
00:47:00,870 --> 00:47:04,280
have in any business, I don't think, and particularly something

995
00:47:04,530 --> 00:47:06,250
as fast moving as Formula One.

996
00:47:07,310 --> 00:47:10,199
And there was also a terrible blame culture there.

997
00:47:10,209 --> 00:47:13,080
So there were these little silos who, you know, there.

998
00:47:13,090 --> 00:47:15,530
There hadn't been good performance there for a long while.

999
00:47:16,439 --> 00:47:19,620
And each little silo was blaming the other silo,

1000
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:20,939
and

1001
00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:22,639
it actually didn't take much

1002
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:24,179
to sort that out. And,

1003
00:47:24,889 --> 00:47:27,739
you know, my my first full year there, we

1004
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:30,959
didn't go from ninth to sixth. We went from ninth to third and

1005
00:47:31,149 --> 00:47:32,739
beat Ferrari that year.

1006
00:47:33,270 --> 00:47:36,419
Um, and in the years I was there, we finished

1007
00:47:37,149 --> 00:47:40,429
third twice and fourth once. I can't remember.

1008
00:47:40,439 --> 00:47:43,800
Maybe fifth once, but, you know, we we we were successful.

1009
00:47:44,790 --> 00:47:45,449
And then

1010
00:47:46,879 --> 00:47:48,510
after I left, you know, the team

1011
00:47:48,790 --> 00:47:51,250
did go down again because I think those sort of

1012
00:47:51,260 --> 00:47:54,580
lessons that I tried to instil in people just disappeared.

1013
00:47:55,570 --> 00:47:56,129
Um

1014
00:47:56,270 --> 00:47:59,899
I mean, there can be other reasons, you know, it can be lack of money.

1015
00:48:00,149 --> 00:48:02,469
And if I take the Benetton in years,

1016
00:48:03,219 --> 00:48:03,689
um,

1017
00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:09,000
the last years of Benetton and before we were bought by Renault, we were really

1018
00:48:09,729 --> 00:48:12,110
existing on a shoestring and trying to

1019
00:48:12,870 --> 00:48:15,340
to really compete in a way we'd won a

1020
00:48:15,350 --> 00:48:17,800
couple of world championships in the mid nineties.

1021
00:48:17,810 --> 00:48:20,100
By the end of the nineties, we were

1022
00:48:20,510 --> 00:48:24,330
really struggling to pay our bills. You know, this was in the days when

1023
00:48:25,169 --> 00:48:28,560
engine bills were just horrific. They were

1024
00:48:28,860 --> 00:48:31,360
they were higher then than they are now,

1025
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:33,879
25 years later.

1026
00:48:34,439 --> 00:48:35,040
So

1027
00:48:35,750 --> 00:48:37,610
those sort of things can affect it.

1028
00:48:38,639 --> 00:48:40,100
But I think fundamentally

1029
00:48:41,010 --> 00:48:44,189
there. There are a number of factors that you need to get right

1030
00:48:44,879 --> 00:48:47,120
to win championships. You know,

1031
00:48:47,620 --> 00:48:50,639
you've got to have the engine, right. You've got to have the tyres, right.

1032
00:48:50,810 --> 00:48:52,860
You've got to have the chassis right

1033
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:55,070
in. That

1034
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:58,560
is the aerodynamics, which is probably the most important bit.

1035
00:48:58,899 --> 00:49:02,530
You gotta have the driver, right? And you gotta have the team, right,

1036
00:49:02,669 --> 00:49:05,149
because the team is often underestimated.

1037
00:49:06,229 --> 00:49:06,649
And

1038
00:49:07,290 --> 00:49:09,229
of those six factors, you know,

1039
00:49:09,469 --> 00:49:14,090
if you've got four of them good and two of them mediocre, Yeah,

1040
00:49:14,100 --> 00:49:15,550
you probably win some races,

1041
00:49:15,770 --> 00:49:17,129
but if you're going to win the championship.

1042
00:49:17,139 --> 00:49:19,149
You've gotta have all six of them together.

1043
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:20,620
And,

1044
00:49:20,780 --> 00:49:25,739
you know, you've really got to set out what are your objectives?

1045
00:49:27,909 --> 00:49:34,050
Where are you going? To invest? Um, you know, in terms of performance on the car,

1046
00:49:35,250 --> 00:49:39,149
for every dollar that you spend on aerodynamics, you get a much,

1047
00:49:39,159 --> 00:49:42,239
much bigger return than almost anything else.

1048
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:45,879
But that doesn't mean you can ignore everything else. Because

1049
00:49:46,100 --> 00:49:48,290
if you have fantastic aerodynamics

1050
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:50,610
on the terrible chassis with a

1051
00:49:51,409 --> 00:49:55,639
a team that can't do a pit stop and don't know anything about strategy and

1052
00:49:56,030 --> 00:49:57,050
et cetera, et cetera,

1053
00:49:57,179 --> 00:49:58,310
you're not going to get anywhere.

1054
00:49:58,639 --> 00:50:03,790
So one of the things I was interested was so as being a technical director,

1055
00:50:04,479 --> 00:50:09,580
what would a a day or a week look like? You know? How much could you

1056
00:50:09,909 --> 00:50:14,939
delegate? How much was it about? How did you manage that? Cos you were an engineer.

1057
00:50:16,350 --> 00:50:17,010
Did you?

1058
00:50:17,830 --> 00:50:21,370
Did you do project management qualification? Did you try and learn about?

1059
00:50:21,510 --> 00:50:26,669
Because I'm always amazed at how do you manage a team of I guess egos and lots of

1060
00:50:26,959 --> 00:50:31,010
people. Do you know what I mean? Did you just It's not easy and

1061
00:50:31,959 --> 00:50:32,520
uh,

1062
00:50:33,310 --> 00:50:35,820
I first became technical director at Benetton,

1063
00:50:36,189 --> 00:50:39,330
and I'd been chief engineer for several years

1064
00:50:40,199 --> 00:50:40,780
and

1065
00:50:41,620 --> 00:50:43,719
Ross Brawn was technical director,

1066
00:50:44,770 --> 00:50:47,929
and Ross decided he was going to go to Ferrari.

1067
00:50:47,939 --> 00:50:51,580
Michael Schumacher had moved to Ferrari, Ross was going to Ferrari,

1068
00:50:52,500 --> 00:50:53,120
and

1069
00:50:54,750 --> 00:50:59,330
Ross suggested to Flavio Briatore around the team that I should be

1070
00:50:59,629 --> 00:51:00,729
technical director

1071
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:04,850
and my first reaction was, I don't want to be a technical director, you know,

1072
00:51:04,860 --> 00:51:06,340
I've got the best job in the world.

1073
00:51:06,350 --> 00:51:08,969
I'm chief engineer, you know, I can play with engineering.

1074
00:51:09,989 --> 00:51:14,320
I have a passion for engineering that's equal to my passion for for motorsport,

1075
00:51:14,330 --> 00:51:15,770
maybe even greater.

1076
00:51:15,879 --> 00:51:17,409
I absolutely love engineering,

1077
00:51:18,290 --> 00:51:22,090
and I thought, Why do I want to get into being technical director?

1078
00:51:22,100 --> 00:51:23,850
But they did a lot of persuading,

1079
00:51:23,969 --> 00:51:24,550
and

1080
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:28,070
eventually I did it and and I don't regret it for a minute

1081
00:51:28,510 --> 00:51:32,270
because it it opened up a whole new avenue in my life.

1082
00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:34,870
Um, lots of interesting things,

1083
00:51:36,290 --> 00:51:38,149
but the first thing I found

1084
00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:39,149
and

1085
00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:41,090
it didn't get any better it got

1086
00:51:41,590 --> 00:51:43,110
perhaps more and more relevant.

1087
00:51:44,010 --> 00:51:45,100
You see, you can't

1088
00:51:45,449 --> 00:51:47,260
do all your engineering

1089
00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:48,580
that you like doing.

1090
00:51:49,250 --> 00:51:51,189
You have to manage people

1091
00:51:51,919 --> 00:51:53,199
in fact, actually,

1092
00:51:53,449 --> 00:51:56,570
years later, when I was at Williams, I always used to say that

1093
00:51:57,229 --> 00:51:58,830
sort of six o'clock,

1094
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:02,149
I used to close the door of my office and I used to turn into an engineer.

1095
00:52:02,790 --> 00:52:06,989
Uh, because then people knew if my door was closed, don't come and disturb me.

1096
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:08,360
And I said it was really urgent.

1097
00:52:08,370 --> 00:52:11,000
And then I could go through all the reports, and I could,

1098
00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:14,129
you know, start to sort of analyse things that we've been doing.

1099
00:52:15,179 --> 00:52:21,139
But it it's not easy. Um, the teams are very large. You you you are managing.

1100
00:52:21,149 --> 00:52:25,209
You're managing huge budgets and you're managing huge human resources.

1101
00:52:25,649 --> 00:52:27,790
The budgets I never found difficult

1102
00:52:27,969 --> 00:52:30,120
to to manage. Um,

1103
00:52:30,379 --> 00:52:32,969
don't particularly enjoy doing that bit of it, but

1104
00:52:33,070 --> 00:52:35,689
it was never difficult to me. It was just like

1105
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:38,550
being at home with a lot more zeros on the end.

1106
00:52:38,729 --> 00:52:39,320
Um,

1107
00:52:39,739 --> 00:52:40,610
but, you know,

1108
00:52:41,149 --> 00:52:42,159
allocating was

1109
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:46,370
the the financial resources where they needed to be wasn't too difficult.

1110
00:52:46,830 --> 00:52:49,699
People are are difficult because

1111
00:52:50,070 --> 00:52:53,219
I always think I, I like awkward people.

1112
00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:54,110
Um,

1113
00:52:54,639 --> 00:52:58,330
I like people who are individuals. I like people who challenge.

1114
00:52:58,850 --> 00:53:00,090
I like people who are

1115
00:53:00,510 --> 00:53:04,649
really, you know, can be a bit of a pain in the arse to to to manage,

1116
00:53:04,659 --> 00:53:06,969
because they are the ones who produce results.

1117
00:53:07,669 --> 00:53:11,570
My my ideal sort of employee is someone who does challenge, does

1118
00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:14,330
question does think laterally.

1119
00:53:14,959 --> 00:53:16,939
But then, once a decision is made,

1120
00:53:17,149 --> 00:53:20,300
absolutely just joins the flow and says, Right, we're go,

1121
00:53:20,310 --> 00:53:21,659
We're going in this direction

1122
00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:25,179
But getting there can be difficult and

1123
00:53:25,469 --> 00:53:27,629
each person is is difficult,

1124
00:53:28,100 --> 00:53:30,320
uh, is different rather not difficult.

1125
00:53:30,860 --> 00:53:31,459
Um,

1126
00:53:32,199 --> 00:53:34,780
and you have to learn how to to

1127
00:53:35,290 --> 00:53:37,439
manage each one of those individuals.

1128
00:53:39,350 --> 00:53:40,330
It's not easy.

1129
00:53:40,649 --> 00:53:41,090
Um,

1130
00:53:42,770 --> 00:53:44,120
I wouldn't say it's my forte,

1131
00:53:44,129 --> 00:53:46,510
but it's something I think I've managed to do quite well.

1132
00:53:46,520 --> 00:53:48,750
I. I think I spot good talent.

1133
00:53:49,639 --> 00:53:50,149
Um,

1134
00:53:51,570 --> 00:53:53,830
an awful lot of people in the pit lane now

1135
00:53:54,719 --> 00:53:58,000
in senior positions, not just in the pit landing factories.

1136
00:53:58,010 --> 00:54:00,010
They are people who have worked for me in the past. So

1137
00:54:00,149 --> 00:54:04,909
I do think that I spot good talent and I do think I nurture good talent.

1138
00:54:05,699 --> 00:54:06,310
Um,

1139
00:54:07,250 --> 00:54:09,879
I think sometimes I'm a little bit soft. Um,

1140
00:54:10,020 --> 00:54:13,270
you know, Williams, I sort of invented this phrase that

1141
00:54:13,500 --> 00:54:15,669
it's not who you hire. It's who you fire,

1142
00:54:16,250 --> 00:54:18,169
Um, because sometimes you. Actually,

1143
00:54:18,350 --> 00:54:22,469
if you want to change culture, you need to get rid of some of the bad apples.

1144
00:54:23,260 --> 00:54:23,909
Um,

1145
00:54:24,889 --> 00:54:25,260
but yeah,

1146
00:54:25,270 --> 00:54:28,370
the the management side of it is far more

1147
00:54:28,379 --> 00:54:31,310
challenging to me than the engineering side of it.

1148
00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:32,379
And do you think that

1149
00:54:32,590 --> 00:54:36,719
is in some ways, what explains some of the differences between the teams?

1150
00:54:36,729 --> 00:54:38,469
Do you Do you think it is almost, uh,

1151
00:54:38,489 --> 00:54:41,949
the leadership the way that they prioritise decisions?

1152
00:54:41,959 --> 00:54:45,169
Hiring, firing? Do you think that actually could steer

1153
00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:49,709
I? I think that's a large part of it. But I, I think the other thing is continuity.

1154
00:54:50,629 --> 00:54:51,219
Um,

1155
00:54:51,469 --> 00:54:55,330
one of the nice things we had at Benetton and was good continuity. You know,

1156
00:54:55,750 --> 00:54:58,449
team that had been together for a long while. We re

1157
00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:01,209
we reproduced it actually at Renault

1158
00:55:01,340 --> 00:55:05,260
in the mid two thousands, where we had a team that had been together a long while.

1159
00:55:05,270 --> 00:55:07,820
You get to that point where you know who you can trust,

1160
00:55:07,830 --> 00:55:09,850
what you can leave alone because

1161
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:14,100
someone else will be dealing with it. You almost know how the other guy's thinking,

1162
00:55:14,500 --> 00:55:16,729
which helps a lot in a in a

1163
00:55:17,209 --> 00:55:20,620
rapid fire sort of situation. Middle of the race. You know,

1164
00:55:20,820 --> 00:55:21,899
things like that.

1165
00:55:22,500 --> 00:55:22,939
Um,

1166
00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:29,899
And I think, you know, sometimes if a team has good continuity,

1167
00:55:29,909 --> 00:55:32,550
we've seen it in Red Bull over the last few years.

1168
00:55:32,979 --> 00:55:33,530
Um,

1169
00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:38,459
maybe we might see that change a little bit. We saw it in Mercedes.

1170
00:55:39,040 --> 00:55:42,469
Uh, people do underestimate that aspect of it.

1171
00:55:42,820 --> 00:55:43,419
Um,

1172
00:55:45,340 --> 00:55:47,280
but yeah. II, I think you know you.

1173
00:55:48,439 --> 00:55:49,810
You cant be on top forever.

1174
00:55:50,439 --> 00:55:54,260
Uh, it's a natural cycle in sports, whether whether it's

1175
00:55:54,860 --> 00:55:56,739
motorsport, whether it's Formula One,

1176
00:55:57,040 --> 00:56:01,620
whether it's football, you know, you do see these cycles and things.

1177
00:56:01,629 --> 00:56:03,860
It is interesting, though, isn't it? You always think,

1178
00:56:05,310 --> 00:56:07,199
Could they have done something different

1179
00:56:07,520 --> 00:56:09,330
to have stayed one year better?

1180
00:56:09,340 --> 00:56:12,179
Was it because that person left which made that person leave,

1181
00:56:12,189 --> 00:56:13,850
which meant that you know what I mean.

1182
00:56:13,860 --> 00:56:17,689
It was It was the one critical moment where all the cards collapsed.

1183
00:56:18,030 --> 00:56:22,030
The chain reaction and what What started the chain reaction?

1184
00:56:22,040 --> 00:56:26,719
Yeah, it is interesting. I think you know it. Um

1185
00:56:29,300 --> 00:56:32,129
I guess at Benetton, I think when Michael left, yeah,

1186
00:56:32,139 --> 00:56:36,620
that did start a chain reaction because a number of people did go to Ferrari

1187
00:56:36,820 --> 00:56:37,439
with him.

1188
00:56:38,250 --> 00:56:38,919
Um,

1189
00:56:40,610 --> 00:56:42,080
maybe you could say the same at

1190
00:56:42,750 --> 00:56:43,449
at Renault when

1191
00:56:43,610 --> 00:56:46,409
Alonso left. So is it the driver? That's the key.

1192
00:56:46,419 --> 00:56:48,820
I mean, I find that quite difficult to

1193
00:56:49,159 --> 00:56:50,370
to argue, but

1194
00:56:50,520 --> 00:56:51,389
But you do worry.

1195
00:56:52,239 --> 00:56:53,649
When I was at Lotus,

1196
00:56:54,159 --> 00:56:55,860
there was a time when

1197
00:56:56,199 --> 00:56:56,510
Kimmy

1198
00:56:56,629 --> 00:56:56,679
rekan,

1199
00:56:56,979 --> 00:56:58,600
I think, was there, and he was James.

1200
00:56:58,909 --> 00:57:00,760
James Allison was

1201
00:57:00,939 --> 00:57:02,010
technical director,

1202
00:57:02,929 --> 00:57:06,629
and it was looking like on the up, you know, maybe there would be a chance.

1203
00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:10,709
And, you know, I was quite junior, so I didn't know what was going on, but then

1204
00:57:11,149 --> 00:57:12,070
we didn't get paid.

1205
00:57:13,239 --> 00:57:13,760
Uh, I

1206
00:57:13,939 --> 00:57:14,709
think

1207
00:57:15,060 --> 00:57:17,340
all the drivers left. I can't remember. I mean, James

1208
00:57:17,719 --> 00:57:19,120
Allison left, and then

1209
00:57:19,629 --> 00:57:20,379
I think

1210
00:57:20,889 --> 00:57:22,370
Jared left.

1211
00:57:22,949 --> 00:57:25,139
Oh, Mike, Um,

1212
00:57:26,419 --> 00:57:26,520
G was

1213
00:57:26,649 --> 00:57:26,659
a

1214
00:57:26,929 --> 00:57:27,850
Mercedes

1215
00:57:28,639 --> 00:57:29,179
Elliot.

1216
00:57:29,810 --> 00:57:31,290
And there was this ripple effect of

1217
00:57:31,419 --> 00:57:33,120
people going, going,

1218
00:57:33,139 --> 00:57:35,860
going Maybe because other people knew other people as well wanted

1219
00:57:36,439 --> 00:57:37,669
them to go with them.

1220
00:57:37,729 --> 00:57:41,760
I know technically, some of that you can't do, but it happens anyway.

1221
00:57:42,560 --> 00:57:45,639
And it was just that ripple. And then the funding got worse.

1222
00:57:45,649 --> 00:57:47,149
The performance got worse, and

1223
00:57:47,760 --> 00:57:48,310
and you just

1224
00:57:48,500 --> 00:57:49,939
Yeah, I always find that interesting.

1225
00:57:50,429 --> 00:57:54,330
Yeah. I mean, it's a relatively incestuous industry.

1226
00:57:54,449 --> 00:57:57,969
People do know each other. You do tend to

1227
00:57:58,250 --> 00:57:58,800
to get together.

1228
00:57:58,810 --> 00:58:02,229
I mean, you know, even when I moved out of the teams and I left Williams,

1229
00:58:02,860 --> 00:58:05,820
uh, I went to work for Formula One management,

1230
00:58:06,090 --> 00:58:08,100
and I was asked to set up a technical team.

1231
00:58:08,989 --> 00:58:09,570
Um,

1232
00:58:11,540 --> 00:58:13,750
most of those people were people I'd worked with,

1233
00:58:13,760 --> 00:58:17,320
people I knew people I trusted people who I thought, you know,

1234
00:58:17,330 --> 00:58:19,090
had the right attributes to

1235
00:58:19,219 --> 00:58:21,580
move from a big team to a small team.

1236
00:58:21,860 --> 00:58:22,310
Um,

1237
00:58:22,550 --> 00:58:24,679
what was that like then? So going,

1238
00:58:24,790 --> 00:58:26,719
maybe fast forwarding. So you were

1239
00:58:27,409 --> 00:58:29,629
You were in the sport for a long time. You took a bit of a break.

1240
00:58:29,639 --> 00:58:31,270
You did some consulting work.

1241
00:58:31,629 --> 00:58:37,550
How did the call come to join Formula One on the other side of the fence? I guess.

1242
00:58:37,649 --> 00:58:38,000
You know,

1243
00:58:40,100 --> 00:58:42,939
prior to working at Formula One, I was working at Williams

1244
00:58:43,260 --> 00:58:45,040
and we had quite a falling out

1245
00:58:45,149 --> 00:58:45,270
there.

1246
00:58:46,209 --> 00:58:46,800
Um,

1247
00:58:48,340 --> 00:58:49,770
we've been very successful.

1248
00:58:50,090 --> 00:58:50,800
Um,

1249
00:58:51,090 --> 00:58:53,399
you know, the most successful time Williams have had

1250
00:58:54,570 --> 00:58:55,870
for 20 years

1251
00:58:56,560 --> 00:58:57,149
and

1252
00:58:57,500 --> 00:58:58,860
have had since then?

1253
00:59:00,010 --> 00:59:00,590
Uh,

1254
00:59:01,129 --> 00:59:03,459
but I was quite ambitious, um,

1255
00:59:03,889 --> 00:59:05,409
and also realistic.

1256
00:59:05,419 --> 00:59:10,669
So as I said, we'd had very good championship results in the three years. I was there,

1257
00:59:11,699 --> 00:59:12,320
Uh,

1258
00:59:13,179 --> 00:59:14,250
I had a plan.

1259
00:59:14,360 --> 00:59:15,580
I always have a plan.

1260
00:59:15,739 --> 00:59:16,449
Um,

1261
00:59:16,649 --> 00:59:21,439
I normally work with a three year plan, and I try and roll that every six months.

1262
00:59:21,449 --> 00:59:22,120
I look at it

1263
00:59:22,790 --> 00:59:23,280
so

1264
00:59:24,070 --> 00:59:28,040
no, no, A plan for where the company is going.

1265
00:59:28,409 --> 00:59:28,879
Um

1266
00:59:30,080 --> 00:59:33,929
and so I'd sort of presented that plan When I first went to Williams,

1267
00:59:34,649 --> 00:59:35,260
Uh,

1268
00:59:35,560 --> 00:59:36,889
I had support for it

1269
00:59:38,909 --> 00:59:43,739
in 2014. We finished third in the championship. Everyone was elated,

1270
00:59:44,040 --> 00:59:47,050
and I said, OK, now we've got to move to the second step and I said, no,

1271
00:59:47,060 --> 00:59:48,179
we can't afford to do it.

1272
00:59:48,820 --> 00:59:49,439
Um,

1273
00:59:50,830 --> 00:59:52,159
we need to consolidate.

1274
00:59:53,179 --> 00:59:55,199
And I said, OK, right. I understand that

1275
00:59:56,110 --> 00:59:57,550
we can live with that.

1276
00:59:57,989 --> 01:00:00,760
We'll delay by by the end of 2015.

1277
01:00:01,110 --> 01:00:02,370
It was the same again,

1278
01:00:03,219 --> 01:00:04,570
uh, and

1279
01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:06,699
we finished.

1280
01:00:07,159 --> 01:00:08,669
I think we finished third again. Uh,

1281
01:00:08,949 --> 01:00:09,739
and

1282
01:00:09,939 --> 01:00:13,629
so, you know, there was a sort of why do we need to do anything? And I said,

1283
01:00:13,879 --> 01:00:15,550
we need to do things because,

1284
01:00:16,370 --> 01:00:21,379
to be honest, Williams was 20 years behind the times in in so many areas,

1285
01:00:22,939 --> 01:00:25,540
and it it culminated in

1286
01:00:25,810 --> 01:00:30,840
in 2016, where I just couldn't go on any further. And Ross, at that time, who I

1287
01:00:32,429 --> 01:00:36,409
maintain in contact with Ross is a good friend. He was talking about,

1288
01:00:37,209 --> 01:00:37,629
uh,

1289
01:00:38,290 --> 01:00:42,219
going to Formula One because Liberty were taking over from

1290
01:00:42,540 --> 01:00:44,909
from CVC and Bernie Ecclestone.

1291
01:00:45,860 --> 01:00:48,399
Um, Ross wanted

1292
01:00:49,100 --> 01:00:52,159
a technical department in Formula One. There never had been one.

1293
01:00:52,889 --> 01:00:53,429
Um,

1294
01:00:54,939 --> 01:00:58,209
he wanted to change from the sort of knee jerk reaction

1295
01:00:58,219 --> 01:01:01,679
of how regulations were made to put some science into it.

1296
01:01:02,350 --> 01:01:05,229
So it was It was perfect timing. Really, Uh, I.

1297
01:01:05,699 --> 01:01:10,159
I was arguing with Williams. He was saying, Here's something that's

1298
01:01:10,260 --> 01:01:13,149
really interesting, totally different, really small team,

1299
01:01:13,159 --> 01:01:14,889
but back to doing engineering

1300
01:01:15,159 --> 01:01:18,189
and not managing and thoroughly enjoyed it.

1301
01:01:18,360 --> 01:01:20,919
Was that refreshing? Almost. Was it a sense of

1302
01:01:22,340 --> 01:01:26,280
going back to the old days of having just a small group of people? Was it

1303
01:01:26,590 --> 01:01:29,320
very, very much so. And

1304
01:01:29,530 --> 01:01:31,840
you know, Neil, because you were part of that group. But

1305
01:01:32,469 --> 01:01:33,840
at that time, you know,

1306
01:01:34,139 --> 01:01:37,409
we used to do our weekly arrow reviews, and they were really

1307
01:01:38,169 --> 01:01:41,070
they were really challenging, weren't they? They were really

1308
01:01:41,590 --> 01:01:42,649
interactive, you know,

1309
01:01:42,659 --> 01:01:47,909
we would really go through things in detail and look at it and you know, that

1310
01:01:48,120 --> 01:01:50,689
that little group of people yourself included

1311
01:01:52,120 --> 01:01:54,939
produced the set of regulations that

1312
01:01:55,100 --> 01:01:57,399
culminated in the 2022 car

1313
01:01:57,610 --> 01:02:02,750
where we'd set out to make a car that could follow another car much more closely.

1314
01:02:03,219 --> 01:02:03,699
And

1315
01:02:04,360 --> 01:02:09,169
we were remarkably successful at it. I think the results were much better than I

1316
01:02:09,899 --> 01:02:12,489
ever dreamt they would be when we started the project.

1317
01:02:12,679 --> 01:02:16,100
But we did it because we were a small focus group. We were

1318
01:02:16,479 --> 01:02:19,639
evidence based decision making, which is, you know, one of my,

1319
01:02:20,030 --> 01:02:23,199
uh, mantras on on everything. Um,

1320
01:02:23,729 --> 01:02:27,040
we weren't driven by anything else. We we had no

1321
01:02:27,510 --> 01:02:31,239
agenda. We had no one on our back. We just got on with it and did it.

1322
01:02:31,250 --> 01:02:35,209
Almost felt like a start up in that it was very quick

1323
01:02:35,360 --> 01:02:37,000
for decisions to be made.

1324
01:02:37,350 --> 01:02:37,689
You know,

1325
01:02:37,699 --> 01:02:41,360
like the advantage of having a small group of people almost felt like

1326
01:02:41,370 --> 01:02:45,449
a skunk works or something where you can very quickly iterate like now

1327
01:02:45,750 --> 01:02:47,850
I don't know if you have it in, um,

1328
01:02:47,860 --> 01:02:51,969
when you deal in sort of bigger organisations just to try and get a meeting organised

1329
01:02:52,459 --> 01:02:53,570
can take forever

1330
01:02:53,889 --> 01:02:56,300
because you've got so many people you know these

1331
01:02:56,310 --> 01:02:58,699
people away when you've only got four or five people

1332
01:02:58,969 --> 01:03:00,489
very easy to just

1333
01:03:00,739 --> 01:03:01,530
have a call.

1334
01:03:01,659 --> 01:03:05,610
It's absolutely true. And it's so applicable in other areas. Um,

1335
01:03:06,060 --> 01:03:06,280
you

1336
01:03:07,419 --> 01:03:08,469
Formula One is my

1337
01:03:09,149 --> 01:03:10,689
main work at the moment, but I

1338
01:03:10,989 --> 01:03:12,760
do other things and, uh,

1339
01:03:14,739 --> 01:03:18,520
been doing some consultancy for a very, very large PLC

1340
01:03:19,280 --> 01:03:19,810
who

1341
01:03:19,959 --> 01:03:21,459
wanted to know how to innovate.

1342
01:03:22,179 --> 01:03:22,639
And

1343
01:03:23,550 --> 01:03:27,169
as a result of discussions with them, that's exactly what they're doing.

1344
01:03:27,179 --> 01:03:30,300
So they're trying to make the little skunk works

1345
01:03:30,459 --> 01:03:31,610
that that really

1346
01:03:31,889 --> 01:03:33,570
handles. Uh, R and D.

1347
01:03:34,239 --> 01:03:35,689
There's a lot to be said for that.

1348
01:03:35,899 --> 01:03:37,330
Yeah, definitely. Um,

1349
01:03:37,580 --> 01:03:39,929
yeah, looking, maybe a bit more to the future.

1350
01:03:39,939 --> 01:03:42,489
So one of the things I guess we started talking about,

1351
01:03:42,870 --> 01:03:44,879
I'm sure you've thought about it before as well. But

1352
01:03:45,030 --> 01:03:46,669
in those rules, change

1353
01:03:46,810 --> 01:03:47,729
was

1354
01:03:48,239 --> 01:03:49,449
the role of,

1355
01:03:50,750 --> 01:03:56,280
as you said, keeping the sport to be in the future, not 20 years behind us. And,

1356
01:03:56,719 --> 01:03:59,149
well, there's a mentality of just doing the same as you've always done it.

1357
01:03:59,159 --> 01:04:02,100
Because that has led to you success. And one of them

1358
01:04:02,360 --> 01:04:04,489
is obviously the wind tunnels,

1359
01:04:04,600 --> 01:04:07,090
the simulation, the high-performance computing.

1360
01:04:07,770 --> 01:04:09,550
Where do you see

1361
01:04:09,750 --> 01:04:12,659
the sport going? Oh, there's obviously some,

1362
01:04:12,909 --> 01:04:15,919
um, announcements made in the past about

1363
01:04:16,169 --> 01:04:18,409
wind tunnels and the ambition to

1364
01:04:18,600 --> 01:04:19,330
reduce them.

1365
01:04:19,340 --> 01:04:23,110
You know, wh wh where do you see the sport going or where would you like to see the

1366
01:04:23,939 --> 01:04:24,070
Bruno?

1367
01:04:24,389 --> 01:04:25,459
I think that they

1368
01:04:26,080 --> 01:04:28,370
the first thing we've got to remember is it is a sport,

1369
01:04:28,379 --> 01:04:29,780
and therefore it's an entertainment.

1370
01:04:30,250 --> 01:04:30,780
And

1371
01:04:31,469 --> 01:04:33,850
we engineers love playing with it because, you know,

1372
01:04:33,860 --> 01:04:36,489
it's it's it's engineering at the forefront.

1373
01:04:37,399 --> 01:04:40,469
Uh, and we need to keep an aspect of that because, you know,

1374
01:04:40,479 --> 01:04:43,020
that is part of the mystique of Formula One.

1375
01:04:43,699 --> 01:04:48,520
Uh, one of the things I found when I went to work for Formula One management was that

1376
01:04:49,570 --> 01:04:51,840
a remarkable number of people are interested in

1377
01:04:51,850 --> 01:04:54,199
the technical side much more than I thought,

1378
01:04:54,889 --> 01:04:57,419
Uh, which is quite gratifying as an engineer.

1379
01:04:59,360 --> 01:05:04,100
But I, I think that what we need to do is we need to stay on the forefront. And if you take

1380
01:05:04,429 --> 01:05:06,050
aerodynamics, for example,

1381
01:05:06,719 --> 01:05:07,580
CFD,

1382
01:05:09,100 --> 01:05:11,149
we absolutely were at the forefront.

1383
01:05:11,419 --> 01:05:14,080
Uh, when we started CFD programmes,

1384
01:05:14,959 --> 01:05:20,199
I guess in the nineties, um, we were really pushing the vendors,

1385
01:05:20,209 --> 01:05:22,419
the software vendors and saying, Look, we need this,

1386
01:05:22,429 --> 01:05:24,389
We need the turbulence models improved.

1387
01:05:24,399 --> 01:05:25,360
We need this, we need

1388
01:05:25,610 --> 01:05:28,139
the other. And we were really, really pushing.

1389
01:05:28,169 --> 01:05:31,439
And I believe that we made a fundamental difference and that

1390
01:05:32,250 --> 01:05:32,979
I was

1391
01:05:33,729 --> 01:05:35,320
quote as one of the

1392
01:05:35,669 --> 01:05:39,800
the areas where motorsport contributes because a lot of people think, well,

1393
01:05:40,199 --> 01:05:44,489
motorsport might give us better engines or better brakes or something on our cars.

1394
01:05:44,500 --> 01:05:47,510
But of course we have a much wider influence in that.

1395
01:05:48,939 --> 01:05:49,560
And

1396
01:05:49,820 --> 01:05:50,989
I think that the

1397
01:05:51,419 --> 01:05:53,520
the work we did in CFD

1398
01:05:53,689 --> 01:05:55,919
in those early days on turbulence models

1399
01:05:57,449 --> 01:05:58,310
I know

1400
01:05:58,739 --> 01:06:02,310
had a fundamental effect on building wind farms.

1401
01:06:03,219 --> 01:06:05,199
Because, of course, if you want to model

1402
01:06:05,479 --> 01:06:09,110
a wind turbine, it's not a terribly difficult thing to do.

1403
01:06:09,889 --> 01:06:11,389
But if you want to model

1404
01:06:11,669 --> 01:06:11,679
a

1405
01:06:11,810 --> 01:06:17,189
farm of wind turbines, each one working in the turbulent wake of another one,

1406
01:06:18,070 --> 01:06:20,550
you really need to get into these turbulence models that

1407
01:06:20,560 --> 01:06:23,570
have been really pushed by the Formula One guys because

1408
01:06:23,770 --> 01:06:25,669
unfortunately, we have a very, very

1409
01:06:26,310 --> 01:06:29,399
an aerodynamic device that we try and race

1410
01:06:29,699 --> 01:06:32,939
and with a lot of turbulence and therefore you know,

1411
01:06:32,949 --> 01:06:37,179
those sort of things and they they led to the wake steering that you see on,

1412
01:06:37,520 --> 01:06:37,530
uh,

1413
01:06:37,780 --> 01:06:40,959
on wind farms these days and things like that. So

1414
01:06:41,239 --> 01:06:43,010
we need to keep at the forefront.

1415
01:06:43,020 --> 01:06:43,939
And unfortunately,

1416
01:06:43,949 --> 01:06:48,219
because we're always trying to just contain costs to a sensible level,

1417
01:06:49,149 --> 01:06:52,510
CFD computational fluid dynamics is one of the areas

1418
01:06:52,520 --> 01:06:55,080
where perhaps we've allowed things to fall behind.

1419
01:06:55,379 --> 01:07:00,149
And it was one of the great things of going to do the the project at FOM because

1420
01:07:00,320 --> 01:07:03,080
we didn't have the constraints of regulation

1421
01:07:03,479 --> 01:07:08,550
so we could move to the these much more sophisticated models. And if you remember,

1422
01:07:08,709 --> 01:07:10,659
our our sort of gold standard was a a

1423
01:07:11,050 --> 01:07:13,530
fully turbulent model of two cars

1424
01:07:13,860 --> 01:07:14,929
incur flow.

1425
01:07:15,070 --> 01:07:18,080
And you know that is computationally

1426
01:07:18,330 --> 01:07:19,840
pretty damn intensive

1427
01:07:20,330 --> 01:07:25,520
and not the sort of thing that teams want to do because of the the resource it takes up.

1428
01:07:25,879 --> 01:07:29,320
So we've got to make sure that we do align things with that.

1429
01:07:30,320 --> 01:07:30,820
Um,

1430
01:07:32,209 --> 01:07:32,719
there's a

1431
01:07:33,570 --> 01:07:34,429
a move

1432
01:07:35,300 --> 01:07:35,879
to,

1433
01:07:37,320 --> 01:07:38,949
I'd say, get rid of wind tunnels.

1434
01:07:38,959 --> 01:07:42,270
It's perhaps going a little bit far, but certainly to reduce the use.

1435
01:07:42,280 --> 01:07:44,800
And over the years we have been reducing

1436
01:07:45,070 --> 01:07:49,800
their use because they are expensive machines to run. They use a lot of electricity.

1437
01:07:50,110 --> 01:07:52,090
But we mustn't lose sight of the fact that CFD

1438
01:07:52,100 --> 01:07:55,010
actually uses quite a lot of electricity as well.

1439
01:07:55,020 --> 01:07:55,979
And, um,

1440
01:07:56,120 --> 01:08:00,620
you know, as we're trying to decarbonise the sport, we need to be very aware of this.

1441
01:08:01,540 --> 01:08:04,350
Now I think one of the areas everyone's talking about one

1442
01:08:04,360 --> 01:08:06,919
of the areas we got to promote is AI.

1443
01:08:07,080 --> 01:08:07,600
And now

1444
01:08:08,520 --> 01:08:09,340
and

1445
01:08:09,669 --> 01:08:10,419
it's not new.

1446
01:08:11,340 --> 01:08:14,120
Uh, believe it or not. In the late

1447
01:08:14,310 --> 01:08:18,640
19 nineties, when I was technical director at Benetton and I started the programme

1448
01:08:19,609 --> 01:08:22,470
to look at how we could use neural networks

1449
01:08:22,750 --> 01:08:23,310
to

1450
01:08:24,368 --> 01:08:25,948
improve the vehicle handling.

1451
01:08:26,167 --> 01:08:26,627
And

1452
01:08:26,849 --> 01:08:29,849
in those days we built our own data acquisition systems,

1453
01:08:30,309 --> 01:08:30,749
and

1454
01:08:31,569 --> 01:08:35,330
I designed our total data acquisition system to be,

1455
01:08:35,930 --> 01:08:36,350
uh,

1456
01:08:37,589 --> 01:08:39,069
if you like, database

1457
01:08:39,319 --> 01:08:42,169
based so that you could interrogate it.

1458
01:08:42,720 --> 01:08:45,759
And we started working with Sheffield University on

1459
01:08:45,770 --> 01:08:47,479
a a neural network system that would,

1460
01:08:47,859 --> 01:08:48,450
uh,

1461
01:08:48,930 --> 01:08:50,450
be able to interrogate

1462
01:08:50,879 --> 01:08:52,129
how the car was set up,

1463
01:08:53,029 --> 01:08:55,229
what the data from the car was saying

1464
01:08:55,580 --> 01:09:00,250
relating that to the drivers. So we actually had to then get the drivers to be

1465
01:09:00,859 --> 01:09:04,680
objective rather than subjective, which is perhaps the most difficult bit.

1466
01:09:05,450 --> 01:09:05,910
And

1467
01:09:06,609 --> 01:09:08,250
yeah, we were years ahead of our time.

1468
01:09:08,259 --> 01:09:08,509
In fact,

1469
01:09:08,520 --> 01:09:12,629
we were so far ahead of our time that actually the project in the end failed because

1470
01:09:13,229 --> 01:09:15,870
we didn't have the computing power that we needed.

1471
01:09:16,279 --> 01:09:19,669
And also, of course, in those days you couldn't go and buy

1472
01:09:20,399 --> 01:09:24,220
ML APIs to plug into your stuff. You had to write it all.

1473
01:09:24,509 --> 01:09:26,919
It is amazing. Actually, I, um

1474
01:09:27,169 --> 01:09:29,270
I don't know the exact details on this, but

1475
01:09:29,399 --> 01:09:30,790
that time you mentioned

1476
01:09:31,200 --> 01:09:34,950
could well be the time that has now become quite famous. As

1477
01:09:35,169 --> 01:09:38,669
why is AI/ML suddenly popular now, when these methods

1478
01:09:38,770 --> 01:09:41,899
and there were there was this sort of winter, they call it where

1479
01:09:42,370 --> 01:09:47,379
So I you were probably at that time where, yes, the theories had been done.

1480
01:09:47,720 --> 01:09:50,660
But because the GPU and the computing power wasn't there,

1481
01:09:50,669 --> 01:09:53,819
it sort of didn't look attractive almost to her.

1482
01:09:54,299 --> 01:09:55,600
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, in

1483
01:09:55,910 --> 01:09:57,790
fact, it wasn't even running on GP

1484
01:10:00,000 --> 01:10:00,220
US

1485
01:10:00,490 --> 01:10:01,959
and GPU.

1486
01:10:03,109 --> 01:10:07,350
I guess they were GPU chips. But, you know, they were they were very, very primitive.

1487
01:10:08,520 --> 01:10:09,410
And certainly

1488
01:10:10,509 --> 01:10:15,250
they were what they said on the tin, you know, they were graphics processing unit.

1489
01:10:15,259 --> 01:10:17,450
That's what they were made for.

1490
01:10:17,950 --> 01:10:18,589
Um,

1491
01:10:19,069 --> 01:10:21,529
so the idea that a GPU could do something

1492
01:10:21,640 --> 01:10:22,319
different

1493
01:10:22,479 --> 01:10:26,049
really wasn't around. We were trying to run these on the standard

1494
01:10:26,799 --> 01:10:30,089
Intel 80 series type processes, and

1495
01:10:30,229 --> 01:10:34,040
it was difficult. It was more than difficult.

1496
01:10:34,689 --> 01:10:35,240
Um,

1497
01:10:35,790 --> 01:10:38,689
so you know, we were trying to take something from technology

1498
01:10:38,819 --> 01:10:43,060
TRL technology readiness level three up to

1499
01:10:43,310 --> 01:10:45,700
eight or something in that That really difficult

1500
01:10:46,029 --> 01:10:46,689
area.

1501
01:10:47,350 --> 01:10:49,290
Uh, and we simply didn't have it.

1502
01:10:49,709 --> 01:10:50,569
Whereas now?

1503
01:10:50,819 --> 01:10:55,120
Yeah, you know it. It's accepted. Practise it. The

1504
01:10:55,490 --> 01:10:58,640
the computing power is there. The knowledge is there.

1505
01:10:58,979 --> 01:11:02,810
You can go to someone like AWS. And you can buy buy the modules.

1506
01:11:02,819 --> 01:11:04,200
You know that will help you get there.

1507
01:11:04,939 --> 01:11:05,629
But,

1508
01:11:05,790 --> 01:11:06,439
um,

1509
01:11:07,390 --> 01:11:10,319
yeah, we started this conversation by saying we'll

1510
01:11:11,040 --> 01:11:15,189
CFD will these sort of techniques take over from wind tunnels

1511
01:11:15,640 --> 01:11:16,180
and

1512
01:11:17,109 --> 01:11:17,770
again

1513
01:11:18,870 --> 01:11:19,680
in the

1514
01:11:20,040 --> 01:11:26,089
the project to produce the 2022 car. We started looking at quite a lot of ML. And, uh,

1515
01:11:27,049 --> 01:11:28,089
in fact, now

1516
01:11:28,379 --> 01:11:29,939
we know that it is

1517
01:11:30,759 --> 01:11:33,930
if we can look at the wake one metre behind the car

1518
01:11:34,720 --> 01:11:39,700
using ML techniques, we can predict the weight 40 metres behind the car,

1519
01:11:39,709 --> 01:11:42,299
and that's a really valuable thing.

1520
01:11:43,200 --> 01:11:44,700
But a lot of these techniques

1521
01:11:45,200 --> 01:11:47,819
are quite intensive.

1522
01:11:48,069 --> 01:11:48,979
And and,

1523
01:11:49,180 --> 01:11:53,020
you know, I've spoken about this, and we We've spoken about the fact that,

1524
01:11:53,560 --> 01:11:54,020
um

1525
01:11:55,520 --> 01:11:56,330
I think that

1526
01:11:57,180 --> 01:11:58,669
a lot of people think that the

1527
01:11:59,740 --> 01:12:02,160
the intense time with any

1528
01:12:02,600 --> 01:12:05,129
ML type system is the training.

1529
01:12:05,950 --> 01:12:07,359
And, yes, it is intense,

1530
01:12:07,939 --> 01:12:10,609
but the utilisation is also intense.

1531
01:12:10,620 --> 01:12:14,750
Uh, and you know, some of the the the figures that we we've seen of

1532
01:12:15,160 --> 01:12:20,520
just doing a simple Google search or an AI-driven Google search where,

1533
01:12:20,970 --> 01:12:21,479
um,

1534
01:12:22,620 --> 01:12:23,770
from memory, it sort of

1535
01:12:24,629 --> 01:12:26,160
less than one watt hour.

1536
01:12:26,169 --> 01:12:29,970
It's about 0.2 watt hours to do a standard Google search,

1537
01:12:29,979 --> 01:12:32,439
and it's anywhere between seven and nine watt hours

1538
01:12:32,750 --> 01:12:36,689
to do an AI-driven Google search. You know, these things become significant.

1539
01:12:37,419 --> 01:12:38,000
Um,

1540
01:12:38,839 --> 01:12:39,790
yeah, we

1541
01:12:39,939 --> 01:12:42,169
we we have these huge data centres now

1542
01:12:42,180 --> 01:12:44,939
which are consuming enormous amounts of power.

1543
01:12:45,459 --> 01:12:48,919
Uh, we really need to think about it very holistically.

1544
01:12:49,209 --> 01:12:51,229
AI is fantastic. It

1545
01:12:51,430 --> 01:12:55,430
it allows us to do many things. Yes, there are concerns. There are.

1546
01:12:57,049 --> 01:12:58,549
We need to be careful.

1547
01:12:58,959 --> 01:12:59,620
Um,

1548
01:12:59,770 --> 01:13:03,470
and we need to recognise those those those those sort

1549
01:13:03,479 --> 01:13:05,589
of things because it is very much black box.

1550
01:13:05,600 --> 01:13:06,950
And that worries me a lot.

1551
01:13:07,870 --> 01:13:08,310
But

1552
01:13:09,240 --> 01:13:11,060
equally it is the way of the future.

1553
01:13:11,330 --> 01:13:11,689
Yeah,

1554
01:13:12,240 --> 01:13:13,459
And do you, um

1555
01:13:14,529 --> 01:13:15,370
do you see any, Uh,

1556
01:13:15,379 --> 01:13:19,790
if you were to watch Formula One in 2040 do you have a sense of what you would

1557
01:13:20,169 --> 01:13:23,589
see? Have you looked out that far to imagine the

1558
01:13:24,129 --> 01:13:28,830
my my job's to look out that far And I find it very, very difficult

1559
01:13:29,680 --> 01:13:30,379
because at

1560
01:13:30,500 --> 01:13:32,839
the moment, Formula One is very much tied

1561
01:13:33,490 --> 01:13:35,160
up with the motor manufacturers.

1562
01:13:35,689 --> 01:13:36,629
And in fact,

1563
01:13:37,020 --> 01:13:38,140
when we were

1564
01:13:39,169 --> 01:13:42,640
doing the 2026 regulations, my initial thought

1565
01:13:43,379 --> 01:13:44,240
was that

1566
01:13:45,259 --> 01:13:46,520
we wouldn't have

1567
01:13:47,189 --> 01:13:50,270
the car manufacturers with us. Everyone was talking about

1568
01:13:50,399 --> 01:13:53,310
electrification, battery, electric vehicles.

1569
01:13:53,459 --> 01:13:54,569
That's where they're going.

1570
01:13:54,970 --> 01:13:55,740
So I thought,

1571
01:13:56,549 --> 01:13:57,569
it's going to be hard.

1572
01:13:57,990 --> 01:13:58,919
But in actual fact,

1573
01:14:00,009 --> 01:14:02,729
not only have the people who were involved stayed,

1574
01:14:02,740 --> 01:14:04,649
but we've got new people coming in.

1575
01:14:04,660 --> 01:14:06,009
We've got Audi coming in.

1576
01:14:06,390 --> 01:14:09,589
Uh, we've got Ford coming in. We have Porsche wanting to come in.

1577
01:14:09,600 --> 01:14:12,939
They didn't actually make it. We've now got General Motors wanting to come in,

1578
01:14:13,430 --> 01:14:16,470
so it makes me think Well, OK, so

1579
01:14:16,850 --> 01:14:19,470
that's 2026 28.

1580
01:14:20,370 --> 01:14:22,529
What on earth are we going to do? 2040?

1581
01:14:22,540 --> 01:14:27,350
Are we going to get to a point where actually our programme on sustainable fuels,

1582
01:14:28,009 --> 01:14:28,669
Um,

1583
01:14:29,060 --> 01:14:31,169
which is a programme I'm very proud of that

1584
01:14:31,180 --> 01:14:33,549
we're doing in Formula One that I initiated.

1585
01:14:34,250 --> 01:14:34,910
Um,

1586
01:14:35,200 --> 01:14:38,899
is that going to be something that saves the internal combustion engine?

1587
01:14:39,200 --> 01:14:39,879
Um,

1588
01:14:40,000 --> 01:14:40,629
or

1589
01:14:41,149 --> 01:14:45,069
are we in fact, going to get battery technologies that really make

1590
01:14:45,290 --> 01:14:46,069
a and

1591
01:14:46,220 --> 01:14:49,549
battery infrastructure charging infrastructure that makes

1592
01:14:49,560 --> 01:14:52,220
battery electric vehicles almost universal?

1593
01:14:52,229 --> 01:14:56,589
In which case will the motor manufacturers want to still be with us?

1594
01:14:56,600 --> 01:15:00,040
Because that makes a very, very fundamental difference to

1595
01:15:00,339 --> 01:15:02,770
to how we go about our racing.

1596
01:15:03,220 --> 01:15:03,709
Um,

1597
01:15:04,330 --> 01:15:05,430
it doesn't kill

1598
01:15:06,259 --> 01:15:08,370
racing a any more than,

1599
01:15:09,390 --> 01:15:12,479
you know, they ran the Grand National at the weekend. Um,

1600
01:15:12,649 --> 01:15:15,520
but no one went there on a horse, did they? They drove there.

1601
01:15:15,910 --> 01:15:16,600
So

1602
01:15:16,729 --> 01:15:18,359
racing will always be there.

1603
01:15:18,750 --> 01:15:19,419
And

1604
01:15:19,700 --> 01:15:24,810
maybe if we look at 2040 if everything is battery electric vehicles, uh, you know,

1605
01:15:24,819 --> 01:15:26,399
even on the the heavy stuff.

1606
01:15:26,410 --> 01:15:27,290
Maybe by then,

1607
01:15:27,759 --> 01:15:30,200
uh, which will require some big breakthroughs.

1608
01:15:31,100 --> 01:15:32,140
Maybe we're providing.

1609
01:15:32,149 --> 01:15:35,470
We're running sustainably, and we're running with a sustainable fuel.

1610
01:15:35,479 --> 01:15:36,839
Whether that be a liquid

1611
01:15:37,160 --> 01:15:39,029
hydrocarbon fuel or a,

1612
01:15:39,339 --> 01:15:39,930
um,

1613
01:15:40,770 --> 01:15:44,220
a synthesised liquid hydrocarbon fuel or whether it's

1614
01:15:44,229 --> 01:15:46,350
hydrogen or or whatever it might be?

1615
01:15:46,689 --> 01:15:50,470
Maybe we just, you know, divorce ourselves from from

1616
01:15:50,850 --> 01:15:53,250
everyday transport in the same way that

1617
01:15:53,390 --> 01:15:55,000
horse racing has from

1618
01:15:55,370 --> 01:15:58,140
It does seem that way that potentially there is, um,

1619
01:15:58,709 --> 01:16:01,439
almost like a nostalgia. At that point of maybe there's

1620
01:16:02,439 --> 01:16:03,859
a desire to

1621
01:16:04,089 --> 01:16:06,419
see racing or things that are not.

1622
01:16:07,930 --> 01:16:12,000
I think fans would be very, very pleased if we

1623
01:16:12,649 --> 01:16:13,990
went back to

1624
01:16:14,270 --> 01:16:15,270
high revving

1625
01:16:15,919 --> 01:16:17,529
V tens V twelves.

1626
01:16:18,990 --> 01:16:19,560
Uh,

1627
01:16:20,540 --> 01:16:25,359
we constantly get that feedback because obviously in in my role now,

1628
01:16:25,370 --> 01:16:29,000
we we do a lot of fan surveys, so we constantly get that,

1629
01:16:29,680 --> 01:16:34,540
uh, motor manufacturers want us to be pushing battery chemistry.

1630
01:16:35,330 --> 01:16:36,049
Um,

1631
01:16:36,479 --> 01:16:38,270
inverter technology

1632
01:16:38,950 --> 01:16:41,240
to some extent, motor technology,

1633
01:16:41,509 --> 01:16:42,009
um,

1634
01:16:43,549 --> 01:16:45,009
hybridization,

1635
01:16:45,899 --> 01:16:49,000
highly efficient internal combustion engines,

1636
01:16:49,200 --> 01:16:49,750
um,

1637
01:16:50,750 --> 01:16:52,089
that sort of thing. But

1638
01:16:52,450 --> 01:16:53,169
actually,

1639
01:16:53,959 --> 01:16:56,500
uh, if they were not part of the scene,

1640
01:16:56,509 --> 01:16:58,600
then I guess we would go about things differently.

1641
01:16:58,609 --> 01:16:59,040
So

1642
01:16:59,370 --> 01:17:01,629
really, really difficult looking out that far.

1643
01:17:02,129 --> 01:17:04,220
So final question for you, you said

1644
01:17:04,930 --> 01:17:09,430
that it's actually more engineering the motorsport in some ways that drives you.

1645
01:17:10,229 --> 01:17:11,569
Do you have any

1646
01:17:12,319 --> 01:17:15,359
sort of bucket list things or desires that you I mean,

1647
01:17:15,370 --> 01:17:17,859
it's done pretty much everything I can imagine.

1648
01:17:17,950 --> 01:17:22,299
But is there anything else you like? I really That's one thing I'd love to work on.

1649
01:17:22,310 --> 01:17:22,830
Or do

1650
01:17:25,160 --> 01:17:28,299
I think there is. In fact, I suspect there's more than one.

1651
01:17:28,540 --> 01:17:28,919
But

1652
01:17:29,759 --> 01:17:31,700
as I said, you know, I started

1653
01:17:32,450 --> 01:17:33,290
really is a

1654
01:17:33,430 --> 01:17:34,970
mechanical engineer

1655
01:17:36,600 --> 01:17:40,680
was taught some automotive. I had to learn an awful lot more automotive, you know,

1656
01:17:41,919 --> 01:17:42,839
tyres, uh, a

1657
01:17:42,959 --> 01:17:45,649
subject I find fascinating.

1658
01:17:45,660 --> 01:17:48,609
And I was taught very basic tyre models,

1659
01:17:48,620 --> 01:17:52,529
whereas now I've really got into thermal tyre models and things like that.

1660
01:17:52,540 --> 01:17:53,520
Aerodynamics.

1661
01:17:53,879 --> 01:17:54,549
Very

1662
01:17:54,729 --> 01:17:58,270
much self taught electronics, very much self taught.

1663
01:17:58,899 --> 01:17:59,479
Um,

1664
01:17:59,959 --> 01:18:04,229
but I do find this whole area of AI and ML really

1665
01:18:05,310 --> 01:18:08,910
interesting, and it's certainly an area I want to keep on top of, As I say,

1666
01:18:08,919 --> 01:18:10,970
I was an early adopter too early,

1667
01:18:11,939 --> 01:18:12,439
and

1668
01:18:13,240 --> 01:18:14,020
I see

1669
01:18:14,689 --> 01:18:16,669
incredible possibilities,

1670
01:18:17,509 --> 01:18:19,799
and I see incredible pitfalls,

1671
01:18:20,109 --> 01:18:22,120
and I guess one of the things that worries me.

1672
01:18:23,919 --> 01:18:27,339
I'll give you a simple example. Let's say,

1673
01:18:29,330 --> 01:18:30,819
let's imagine Yeah, I I've

1674
01:18:31,430 --> 01:18:35,609
got a huge expanse of land and I've got a lovely little stream running through it.

1675
01:18:35,620 --> 01:18:37,850
And I think, Oh, I need a bridge across that

1676
01:18:38,350 --> 01:18:39,569
that that stream.

1677
01:18:39,810 --> 01:18:40,209
And

1678
01:18:40,899 --> 01:18:43,240
to be honest, if I want to walk across that bridge,

1679
01:18:43,250 --> 01:18:45,430
I know I can put down a couple of bits of four

1680
01:18:45,439 --> 01:18:48,020
by two timber and a couple of planks on top of it.

1681
01:18:48,029 --> 01:18:48,799
It'll be fine.

1682
01:18:49,779 --> 01:18:52,790
And then I think, Oh, actually, maybe I want to drive a tractor across it.

1683
01:18:52,799 --> 01:18:55,439
Oh, II, I better calculate it. But

1684
01:18:55,750 --> 01:18:56,520
that's fine.

1685
01:18:56,529 --> 01:19:00,560
Yeah, it's It's an easy calculation to do to to look at what I need on that bridge.

1686
01:19:01,810 --> 01:19:02,790
And then I think,

1687
01:19:03,029 --> 01:19:05,990
Well, actually, there are a few different ways I could do this.

1688
01:19:06,000 --> 01:19:08,470
So maybe, rather than just doing a hand calculation,

1689
01:19:08,479 --> 01:19:09,950
I'll write a computer programme

1690
01:19:11,040 --> 01:19:11,620
and

1691
01:19:12,529 --> 01:19:15,779
I write a computer programme and it looks at the various options

1692
01:19:15,790 --> 01:19:19,680
of the sections of wood or steel that I could use and

1693
01:19:19,910 --> 01:19:23,149
et cetera, et cetera, and I build my bridge and I drive my tractor over it

1694
01:19:23,540 --> 01:19:24,629
and it falls in the stream.

1695
01:19:25,709 --> 01:19:29,250
So I think I, I go back and I look at my computer programme and say, Oh

1696
01:19:29,500 --> 01:19:31,330
yeah, sorry, I made a mistake there.

1697
01:19:31,810 --> 01:19:33,810
That's fine I'm in control of it.

1698
01:19:35,049 --> 01:19:37,629
If I use an AI system to do that

1699
01:19:38,529 --> 01:19:39,709
and the bridge falls down,

1700
01:19:40,770 --> 01:19:41,970
it's a black box.

1701
01:19:42,370 --> 01:19:44,399
Where did it get the information?

1702
01:19:44,830 --> 01:19:45,709
That was wrong.

1703
01:19:46,859 --> 01:19:49,439
They call it hallucinating when it starts to make it

1704
01:19:49,589 --> 01:19:50,959
up its own things.

1705
01:19:51,129 --> 01:19:51,600
And

1706
01:19:52,279 --> 01:19:57,009
yeah, that's a real concern because there is so much of a culture now

1707
01:19:57,689 --> 01:19:59,870
of believing what's on the Internet,

1708
01:20:00,629 --> 01:20:02,729
believing what comes out of a computer

1709
01:20:04,240 --> 01:20:07,560
with AI being trained or ML being trained

1710
01:20:08,029 --> 01:20:09,040
so much and

1711
01:20:09,979 --> 01:20:11,740
just on what's on the Internet.

1712
01:20:12,149 --> 01:20:13,689
It's not all true,

1713
01:20:14,089 --> 01:20:16,060
and some of the inferences that can be

1714
01:20:16,930 --> 01:20:18,799
drawn from what's out there

1715
01:20:19,009 --> 01:20:20,229
are really worrying

1716
01:20:20,520 --> 01:20:20,990
and

1717
01:20:21,200 --> 01:20:24,240
there's no way of checking it. I can't go back and look at my code

1718
01:20:24,629 --> 01:20:26,109
and say, Oh, yeah, hang on.

1719
01:20:27,020 --> 01:20:29,500
I missed out a decimal point in that, that

1720
01:20:30,129 --> 01:20:31,229
that line of code.

1721
01:20:32,080 --> 01:20:32,620
So

1722
01:20:33,799 --> 01:20:35,140
I have that caution I.

1723
01:20:35,149 --> 01:20:39,580
I don't have the worries about it taking over the world that that some might have.

1724
01:20:39,950 --> 01:20:41,049
I have the worries

1725
01:20:42,479 --> 01:20:46,520
a of it being misused by bad actors because unfortunately

1726
01:20:46,839 --> 01:20:48,500
that's what happens so often.

1727
01:20:48,509 --> 01:20:49,770
We've seen it with the Internet and we

1728
01:20:49,779 --> 01:20:52,149
should learn from the Internet because the Internet

1729
01:20:52,319 --> 01:20:53,939
was badly regulated

1730
01:20:54,319 --> 01:20:57,299
and we should learn from that. And we should make sure that

1731
01:20:58,560 --> 01:20:59,919
any form of

1732
01:21:00,149 --> 01:21:05,209
AI, particularly when we get to AGI—you know, artificial general intelligence.

1733
01:21:05,220 --> 01:21:07,140
We've got to make sure we're regulating it.

1734
01:21:08,379 --> 01:21:09,279
So, um

1735
01:21:09,709 --> 01:21:11,339
yeah, that's the bit I would like to get

1736
01:21:12,839 --> 01:21:13,770
just a small

1737
01:21:14,890 --> 01:21:15,950
just a last

1738
01:21:17,970 --> 01:21:17,979
a

1739
01:21:18,129 --> 01:21:18,229
year

1740
01:21:18,359 --> 01:21:18,430
or

1741
01:21:18,600 --> 01:21:18,620
two.

1742
01:21:19,950 --> 01:21:20,140
Great.

1743
01:21:20,640 --> 01:21:20,899
Thanks So

1744
01:21:21,000 --> 01:21:21,330
much for

1745
01:21:21,509 --> 01:21:23,359
joining really enjoyed this talk. And

1746
01:21:23,640 --> 01:21:24,149
thanks again,

1747
01:21:24,470 --> 01:21:25,189
it's a pleasure

1748
01:21:48,629 --> 01:21:48,680
that