1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:01,760 Hi, and welcome to the Neil Ashton 2 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:04,520 podcast. In each episode, we explain 3 00:00:04,520 --> 00:00:06,080 some of the fascinating ways that 4 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:08,200 science and engineering are changing the 5 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:09,680 world around us. 6 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:11,720 We talk to leading engineers from elite 7 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:14,800 level sports like cycling and Formula 1 8 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:16,880 to some of the world's top academics to 9 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:19,120 understand how fluid dynamics, machine 10 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:21,880 learning, supercomputing are bringing in 11 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:23,840 a new era of discovery. 12 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:26,080 We also hear some of their life stories, 13 00:00:26,080 --> 00:00:27,600 their career advice, 14 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:29,080 and lessons they've learned on the way 15 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:32,000 that I hope will be helpful to you, too. 16 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:36,400 So, sit back and enjoy this episode. 17 00:00:39,480 --> 00:00:42,040 Welcome back to the Neil Ashton podcast. 18 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:44,520 Today's episode is with Chris Rumsey, 19 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:46,640 who is a research scientist at NASA 20 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:48,720 Langley Research Center. 21 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:50,520 This is another one of these episodes 22 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:53,360 that is going to get quite focused into 23 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:55,080 computational fluid dynamics and 24 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:57,920 turbulence modelling. So, um 25 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:00,040 I'm hoping if you're interested in that, 26 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:01,960 this is, you know, great for you and 27 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:03,600 diving into a topic and speaking to 28 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:05,199 somebody who I think is, 29 00:01:05,199 --> 00:01:07,040 you know, has played a key role in this 30 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:10,520 industry and this community. Um but, uh 31 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:12,680 just just a caveat that if you are maybe 32 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:15,040 outside of CFD and you've been watching 33 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:16,720 or listening to some of the episodes on 34 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:18,520 Formula 1 or cycling, 35 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:21,240 uh just be prepared this does get quite 36 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:23,240 deep. So, I just put that as a warning 37 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:25,600 out there. Um 38 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:27,960 a quick thing as well I should say if 39 00:01:27,960 --> 00:01:30,080 you're listening to this podcast, there 40 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:32,760 is also a YouTube version where we have 41 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:34,160 the full video. 42 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:36,200 Just type Neil Ashton podcast. Uh but, 43 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:37,560 equally if you're watching this on 44 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:39,240 YouTube right now, and actually 45 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:41,320 sometimes you prefer just to listen to a 46 00:01:41,320 --> 00:01:44,320 podcast, it's also available on uh 47 00:01:44,320 --> 00:01:46,800 Spotify and Apple. And uh 48 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:48,160 thanks to those who have already 49 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:49,760 listening. I I can't believe there's 50 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:52,520 over now 15,000 subscribers on YouTube, 51 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:53,600 which 52 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:55,680 yeah, I thought it'd be, you know, five 53 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:57,560 people and a few of their mates. So, I'm 54 00:01:57,560 --> 00:01:58,680 pleased that at least some people are 55 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:00,520 finding this interesting, but yeah, so 56 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:02,680 if you do like this, I hate saying this 57 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:05,280 thing, but I'm told I should say it, the 58 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:07,160 whole like and subscribe, just because 59 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:09,399 then if a new episode comes out, you 60 00:02:09,399 --> 00:02:11,160 you know about it. 61 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:12,160 So, 62 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:15,120 today's thing is, like I said, about 63 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:18,840 Chris Rumsey from from NASA. Um 64 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:21,600 I have to say that 65 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:24,760 I have a personal 66 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:26,760 I I just I really like Chris as an 67 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:28,959 individual, and I hope many other people 68 00:02:28,959 --> 00:02:30,560 who know him will agree with me, and and 69 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:31,959 after watching this, you'll also agree 70 00:02:31,959 --> 00:02:33,840 if you didn't know him before, because 71 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:37,360 he's just such a nice guy. He's just 72 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:39,040 such a pleasure 73 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:41,440 to talk to. He has 74 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:44,800 no ego, he's very modest, he he 75 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:47,760 but he has so much awareness, and and we 76 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:49,400 discussed many of the things that he's 77 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:51,840 he's done. 78 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:55,640 He's created and shared so much like his 79 00:02:55,640 --> 00:02:57,520 his role of sort of public 80 00:02:57,520 --> 00:02:59,320 dissemination, the papers he's written, 81 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:00,680 the websites he looked after, the 82 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:02,680 workshop he's done, so many of these 83 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:05,040 things that I genuinely think have had a 84 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:07,760 huge impact on every person out there 85 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:11,160 who develops a method, a code. And this 86 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:14,280 is particularly true in the aeronautical 87 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:16,280 sphere and things like drag prediction 88 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:18,080 or high-lift prediction 89 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:20,680 of aircraft, Chris has really played a 90 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:22,600 huge role. 91 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:24,360 But what the one of the some of the 92 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:25,959 things that I found interesting and that 93 00:03:25,959 --> 00:03:28,480 we get into is um 94 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:30,320 I didn't know Chris was an artist. So, 95 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:31,800 we talk a little bit about some of his 96 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:35,280 early passions for that, how that he he 97 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:38,200 actually interviewed for the CIA. Again, 98 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:41,800 I had no clue about that. But I guess 99 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:44,400 the conversation is split into two. 100 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:47,040 The first half is a little bit about his 101 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:49,840 career, how he got into CFD, 102 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:53,160 some of the early days at Langley. 103 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:55,440 Talking a little bit about the 104 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:57,480 turbulence modelling website that he was 105 00:03:57,480 --> 00:03:59,040 one of the the founders for. And if you 106 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:01,440 look in the um the caption notes or the 107 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:02,960 the show notes, there's a link to that 108 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:04,000 website if you're not aware. It 109 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:05,800 basically lists almost every single 110 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:07,400 turbulence model 111 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:09,800 that CFD has so that you can implement 112 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:11,160 it and you can verify that you've 113 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:12,640 implemented it correctly and then you 114 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:15,080 can validate it against some test cases. 115 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:16,200 This is 116 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:18,320 widely used as he said as you know more 117 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:20,239 than 40,000 visitors a month because it 118 00:04:20,239 --> 00:04:23,560 is one of the central places um for for 119 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:24,960 these models. And that's not just 120 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:26,880 low-speed aerodynamics. Almost anybody 121 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:29,520 who's doing any turbulence modelling um 122 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:31,360 quite often goes to this website to find 123 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:34,240 the formulation and the papers. 124 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:36,440 Um and if you're writing a new code, uh 125 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:38,120 I mean hundreds or thousands of papers 126 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:40,800 reference this site to verify that 127 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:42,800 they've implemented the model correctly. 128 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:44,200 So we talk about some of the origins of 129 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:46,800 that. Um we talk about the high-lift 130 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:49,000 prediction workshop which um is a 131 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:50,440 workshop that's trying to advance the 132 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:52,120 state of the art for high-lift 133 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:54,440 aerodynamics. Uh again, I'll put a link 134 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:57,000 in the in the chat. Um and we talk about 135 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:59,040 how how some of those came about, some 136 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:01,080 of his thoughts on the role of machine 137 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:02,960 learning for CFD and for turbulence 138 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:04,400 modelling. Again, something that he's 139 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:07,200 been part of uh arranging with other 140 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:09,360 symposiums and and workshops to try and 141 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:13,000 explore this place. Um we also um get 142 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:14,960 into some discussion of certification by 143 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:17,360 analysis uh and some of the challenges 144 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:19,600 of machine learning applied to that, uh 145 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:22,400 how reproducibility, etc. 146 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:25,120 Um and then we shift a little bit 147 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:27,160 because one of the things I 148 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:30,160 wanted people listening to this to get a 149 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:32,280 feel of is 150 00:05:32,280 --> 00:05:33,919 uh what is it what is it like to work at 151 00:05:33,919 --> 00:05:36,880 NASA? What was that journey like? Um 152 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:38,320 I'm always jealous of people who work 153 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:40,040 for NASA. It was a dream of mine to to 154 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:41,400 work for NASA. And even though I did 155 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:42,880 spend a little bit of time there, I was 156 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:45,240 you know, never a civil servant like 157 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:47,000 like Chris is. So we dive a little bit 158 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:49,480 into how he got in, how other people, 159 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:51,640 the differences in the roles, 160 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:53,480 and then maybe a few more light-hearted 161 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:55,240 things around 162 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:57,200 some of the conferences that he the most 163 00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:00,440 memorable times he's had at conferences 164 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:01,960 and events that he's done. And then a 165 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:03,480 little bit of discussion at the end 166 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:05,320 around 167 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:07,480 whether it's best to pursue your hobby 168 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:10,200 as a job or do your job and have a hobby 169 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:12,760 afterwards. So, hopefully an interesting 170 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:16,600 explanation or exploration of someone 171 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:18,600 who I think has made it a really key 172 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:21,800 role for CFD. And and just someone, like 173 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:23,720 I said, it's just such a a lovely and 174 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:26,680 nice individual that I hope um 175 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:28,280 if you haven't met him, that you have 176 00:06:28,280 --> 00:06:30,080 the opportunity to meet him because he's 177 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:32,560 just a pleasure to speak to. So, yeah, 178 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:35,240 please sit back and enjoy this episode 179 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:36,919 with Chris Rumsey. 180 00:06:36,919 --> 00:06:39,720 I I think most people have a dream. 181 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:41,480 At least I did. 182 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:44,960 Of working for NASA. It's sort of like 183 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:46,120 when you're growing up, there's this 184 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:47,600 certainly doesn't almost matter what 185 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:49,480 country you grow up in. You know, you 186 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:51,800 you think about NASA. You actually do 187 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:53,320 work for NASA. 188 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:55,560 So, did you always actually want to work 189 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:57,040 for NASA? Was that sort of a childhood 190 00:06:57,040 --> 00:06:59,320 dream? 191 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:03,280 No, not not really. 192 00:07:03,280 --> 00:07:04,600 When I was in 193 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:05,919 in college at 194 00:07:05,919 --> 00:07:09,880 Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, RPI, 195 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:13,520 they just had interviews and I actually 196 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:16,560 interviewed for the CIA. And then I 197 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:17,600 interviewed 198 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:19,320 interviewed for NASA. 199 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:21,680 And it just it just struck me at the 200 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:23,919 time that it would be 201 00:07:23,919 --> 00:07:25,520 a good place to work and it sounded cool 202 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:26,960 then, but I hadn't thought of it before 203 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:28,919 before that time. Just that they had an 204 00:07:28,919 --> 00:07:30,280 opening and 205 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:32,760 and it sounded really interesting. 206 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:35,760 Okay, I need to back up there cuz 207 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:37,840 I wasn't expecting that answer. 208 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:40,240 Is that because of where you 209 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:43,400 were living? I mean, was this 210 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:44,680 When you said the CIA or NASA, they're 211 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:46,040 quite different things. Were these 212 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:49,000 graduate programs essentially or 213 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:50,800 No, it was just at the time they just 214 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:51,720 had 215 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:55,120 the school had job fairs and 216 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:56,840 it was just random companies would come 217 00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:59,200 in, you know, all from all over and and 218 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:00,440 you just signed up for the ones that you 219 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:02,560 were potentially interested in and just 220 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:04,120 had 221 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:05,760 It was almost like practice interviews 222 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:07,840 where you could could talk and not you 223 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:09,360 know, not worry so much about it because 224 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:10,480 you were just kind of trying to get a 225 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:12,680 feel for what was out there and 226 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:15,280 and I just remember those two. 227 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:16,760 Did you ever think what would happen if 228 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:18,080 you'd gone down the other route, I 229 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:18,600 guess? 230 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:21,120 I'd be a spy, I think. Well, we wouldn't 231 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:22,560 be having this conversation, that's for 232 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:24,840 sure. That's right, yeah. 233 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:27,840 Um but hold on, so you What did you 234 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:30,720 study then in university? What? I went 235 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:33,039 into aeronautical engineering. So I 236 00:08:33,039 --> 00:08:35,880 started I I went directly from 237 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:37,680 directly into the aero aeronautical 238 00:08:37,680 --> 00:08:39,719 engineering program. 239 00:08:39,719 --> 00:08:42,599 And so I was always interested in in 240 00:08:42,599 --> 00:08:44,800 aeronautics and aeronautical engineering 241 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:46,080 and 242 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:47,880 mathematics, that type of thing. But the 243 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:49,160 the aero 244 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:53,320 appealed to me I guess because of uh 245 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:56,080 airplanes and space, I've always 246 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:57,640 just found them fascinating that they 247 00:08:57,640 --> 00:08:59,160 even work. So, you know, when I was a 248 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:01,000 kid it was like, "Wow, look at look at 249 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:03,120 that thing. How's that even working?" 250 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:05,480 So, just always always fascinated me and 251 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:06,920 and interested me. So, just wanted to 252 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:08,640 get into that field. 253 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:10,480 And did you Were you the sort of child 254 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:13,040 who was very 255 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:15,240 like obsessed with planes and fighter 256 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:17,800 jets and all that or were you more just 257 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:20,040 yeah? Yeah, not not really. Actually, I 258 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:22,000 was more into um 259 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:25,640 art and artistic things. I was In fact, 260 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:26,240 I 261 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:28,280 almost went that direction instead of 262 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:29,800 engineering 263 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:31,240 because I was 264 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:33,720 good at art, good at drawing and 265 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:35,560 painting and things like that. 266 00:09:35,560 --> 00:09:38,400 But um, teachers convinced me that it 267 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:39,720 would be better to go into something 268 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:41,160 more lucrative 269 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:42,360 and 270 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:44,200 that where you have a definite type of 271 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:45,680 income and then 272 00:09:45,680 --> 00:09:48,600 keep the art for a hobby or something to 273 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:50,040 do on the side 274 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:52,360 uh or or to do when you retire type of 275 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:54,680 thing. But, that's also partly why I was 276 00:09:54,680 --> 00:09:56,640 interested in in aeronautics because of 277 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:58,520 the sleekness of the airplanes and how 278 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:00,880 they were shaped and 279 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:02,800 the design aspect of it was was 280 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:04,200 fascinating. 281 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:06,800 interesting. So, Oh, so I see behind 282 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:08,640 you. Are these some of your works that 283 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:11,320 you Oh, yeah. have that that one 284 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:12,080 uh 285 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:13,560 uh went to yeah, those are mine. Yeah. 286 00:10:13,560 --> 00:10:14,760 Mhm. 287 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:17,080 But, see, you said before we started, 288 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:18,360 "Oh, I've got nothing interesting." I'm 289 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:21,400 already this is something I did not 290 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:22,680 know at all. Okay, that's interesting. 291 00:10:22,680 --> 00:10:25,040 So, you were always Did Were you tempted 292 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:26,720 to go into architecture then at all that 293 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:29,040 side or was it more the drawing like uh 294 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:32,040 proper art like Yeah, maybe a little bit 295 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:32,640 um 296 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:34,280 the architecture I 297 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:35,920 um 298 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:37,640 Yeah, it doesn't move though. So, maybe 299 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:39,400 it wasn't quite as interesting me to be 300 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:41,320 from that perspective. A- And actually, 301 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:42,960 when when I was when I was at RPI, they 302 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:44,920 had an architecture program and some of 303 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:48,240 my roommate one of my roommates was a in 304 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:50,600 that. And it sa- he was just miserable. 305 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:52,440 It was awful because 306 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:54,280 the mathematics part of it, you know, 307 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:55,400 was always very definite. You're either 308 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:57,120 right or you're wrong. But, the art part 309 00:10:57,120 --> 00:10:59,320 of it is very subjective. And if you 310 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:01,680 happen to have a teacher who is just 311 00:11:01,680 --> 00:11:03,240 doesn't like you for some reason, he can 312 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:05,200 just say, "I don't like that because 313 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:06,839 it's not good." And it And it's very 314 00:11:06,839 --> 00:11:09,360 subjective. So, he he was driven crazy 315 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:10,520 by that. 316 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:12,200 So, you did 317 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:15,440 your um undergraduate, but then you went 318 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:18,040 on to do a PhD. Is that correct? W- 319 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:20,720 Yeah, at RPI, I stayed at RPI for the 320 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:23,520 undergraduate and a master's. Did those 321 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:25,440 kind of together. Okay. 322 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:27,000 Yeah. So, it went fairly quickly and 323 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:30,000 then came to uh NASA. 324 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:32,480 And then I got my PhD through NASA. NASA 325 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:34,440 has a has a nice program. Well, they 326 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:35,760 they will 327 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:38,080 pay for you to get your degree, 328 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:39,880 you know, because it benefits them to 329 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:41,360 have someone who's 330 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:42,960 smarter working for them. 331 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:45,480 Okay. So, what did you do your PhD in 332 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:48,160 then? What was the um It It was in uh 333 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:49,920 aeronautical or aerospace engineering. 334 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:52,000 It It was at the University of Michigan, 335 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,440 and it was numerical methods 336 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:56,520 uh under Bram van Leer. 337 00:11:56,520 --> 00:11:58,800 And that was uh he was my advisor. 338 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:00,680 Okay. And that connection came about 339 00:12:00,680 --> 00:12:02,720 because of NASA, because 340 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:05,600 at NASA we had the ICASE program. I 341 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:07,680 don't know if you've heard of that. 342 00:12:07,680 --> 00:12:09,960 But it's it's a it's a it was a a really 343 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:12,760 nice institute, kind of like the uh 344 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:14,320 there are other institutes like this 345 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:16,440 elsewhere. Um 346 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:18,960 ICASE, what does it stand for? I don't 347 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:21,320 remember what it even stands for. It's 348 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:22,800 not around anymore. 349 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:24,800 But it was a a small institute that was 350 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:27,120 independently run within NASA, and it 351 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:29,320 was actually housed in the building 352 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:31,880 where my branch was located. 353 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:33,480 And it would bring in mostly in the 354 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:36,040 summers bring in all these professors 355 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:37,920 from all over the world, Bram van Leer, 356 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:40,680 Phil Roe, I mean, all these all these 357 00:12:40,680 --> 00:12:43,800 really uh great CFD guys. Mhm. And 358 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:46,360 turbulence folks as well. Uh to to come 359 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:48,080 and work um 360 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:50,480 uh for the summer or or other times. And 361 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:51,400 they would also bring in young 362 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:53,560 undergraduates and uh 363 00:12:53,560 --> 00:12:55,040 build up 364 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:57,080 the science that that way. 365 00:12:57,080 --> 00:12:58,680 And so, being housed with them, you 366 00:12:58,680 --> 00:12:59,960 know, we got to know all these folks. 367 00:12:59,960 --> 00:13:02,360 And it was really a a great 368 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:03,960 relationship. And because of that is 369 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:05,280 what why 370 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:08,360 then work for Bram for the PhD. 371 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:11,280 Ah, okay. But did you Did you always 372 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:13,520 want to go into the more 373 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:15,760 uh CFD side rather than wind tunnel 374 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:17,600 testing? Was Was there a reason for 375 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:19,760 going in, or was it just that was the 376 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:22,720 choice of PhD that was available? 377 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:25,240 Well, the branch that I joined was a it 378 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:27,800 was a This was the time when CFD was 379 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:29,720 kind of getting 380 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:31,720 started. So, it was a new branch that 381 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:34,160 had just uh gotten underway maybe a year 382 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:35,640 or two previous. 383 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:36,720 And I was 384 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:39,200 hired into that branch uh 385 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:41,240 despite knowing very little about 386 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:43,360 numerical methods at the you know, from 387 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:44,520 my uh 388 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:45,880 from my 389 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:46,560 uh 390 00:13:46,560 --> 00:13:48,680 undergraduate and and master's work. I 391 00:13:48,680 --> 00:13:51,160 didn't do that much with with com- with 392 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:53,560 computer science. But, the branch was 393 00:13:53,560 --> 00:13:54,840 all numerical methods. In fact, when I 394 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:56,680 first got there, one of the first things 395 00:13:56,680 --> 00:13:59,120 they do is they sit you down 396 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:01,240 and and they Each person in the branch 397 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:02,440 who was already there would talk to you 398 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:03,840 about what they did. And I just remember 399 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:05,240 sitting there going, 400 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:06,680 "What the heck? I didn't even know I 401 00:14:06,680 --> 00:14:08,520 didn't know what a vortex was." I mean, 402 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:10,000 they they were just talking like 403 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:12,400 gibberish. So, I was 404 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:14,240 brought in and really trained on the job 405 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:17,320 to to do the the numerical methods. 406 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:20,200 Wow. So, what was the state that's This 407 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:22,160 is NASA Langley. It was NASA Langley, 408 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:22,920 yeah. 409 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:24,720 I And so, what was the 410 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:25,880 um 411 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:27,400 What was it like at that stage? Was 412 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:29,240 there any major projects going on at 413 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:32,280 that time? I mean, the space shuttle Am 414 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:33,720 I getting the dates wrong now? When 415 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:36,320 would that have been? I'm sure that that 416 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:38,600 was going on, but we weren't at least to 417 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:39,839 my knowledge that involved in that. It 418 00:14:39,839 --> 00:14:42,360 was more uh fundamental development of 419 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:47,800 the of CFD codes for doing um 420 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:49,560 analyzing wings, you know, starting out 421 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:52,640 with the Euler and then moving fairly 422 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:54,240 quickly after I got there into the 423 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:57,720 Navier–Stokes and and started up these 424 00:14:57,720 --> 00:14:58,920 codes. I don't know if you remember any 425 00:14:58,920 --> 00:14:59,839 of the names of the codes, you know, 426 00:14:59,839 --> 00:15:03,120 CFL3D and TLNS3D. They were very old 427 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:04,560 codes that were 428 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:06,960 uh and and worked with uh you know, Tony 429 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:09,960 Jameson was someone involved too, or he 430 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:13,360 was in in the same cadre of 431 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:15,080 of folks that that 432 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:17,400 that came to ICASE. And so, everyone was 433 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:20,320 working on the same um 434 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:22,120 uh in the same area trying to build up 435 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:24,840 the the CFD methods. When did you start 436 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:27,000 to transition more into turbulence 437 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:29,440 modelling compared to pure numerical 438 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:31,080 methods? Was there a sort of turning 439 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:32,640 point when that happened or particular 440 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:34,840 project? Yeah, it was kind of a gradual 441 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:38,600 shift toward that. Uh, part of it was 442 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:40,400 that we had, um, 443 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:41,560 some 444 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:43,360 to turbulence, you know, the turbulence 445 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:46,040 work was going on at ICASE and then, uh, 446 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:47,800 we had some folks in the branch who who 447 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:50,040 were more turbulence modelers and I just 448 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:52,040 started to work with them 449 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:53,000 uh, 450 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:54,400 a little over time and and of course our 451 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:56,840 codes, starting out with just 452 00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:57,960 laminar Navier–Stokes, but then we 453 00:15:57,960 --> 00:15:59,520 needed turbulence models, so we put in 454 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:01,800 this the Cebeci-Smith and the 455 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:03,920 Baldwin-Lomax. And then, of course, in 456 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:05,480 the early '90s, 457 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:08,240 uh, Philippe Spalart and, uh, Florian 458 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:09,800 Menter, who who you've interviewed 459 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:11,960 already here, their models came out and 460 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:13,680 and we worked with them to put them in 461 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:15,720 our codes as well. And then that it just 462 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:17,640 kind of built from there. 463 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:19,720 Yeah, what was I was trying to when I 464 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:21,560 was asking Florian about that, what was 465 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:24,480 it like that time? Because looking back, 466 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:26,560 it seems like that must have been this 467 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:28,240 really, 468 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:30,120 you know, fast-paced development all 469 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:31,839 these models. Did it feel like that or 470 00:16:31,839 --> 00:16:33,280 at the time did it 471 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:35,120 did it not? Do you know what I mean? Did 472 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:38,000 it feel like you were onto something 473 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:40,160 momentous with these new models coming 474 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:42,120 in that gave better accuracy than before 475 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:45,760 or was it Did it just feel like a normal 476 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:47,800 No, I don't think it felt normal. It was 477 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:50,560 It was I think we we we saw this as as 478 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:53,120 major developments. I mean, Mhm. uh, 479 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:54,280 because with the ones we were working 480 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:56,920 with before were just, um, 481 00:16:56,920 --> 00:16:57,600 uh, 482 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:00,520 I don't know. So, so, um, touchy and, 483 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:02,200 um, I don't know what the word is, but, 484 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:05,000 ad hoc ad hoc, yeah. And then to have 485 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:06,400 these, uh, 486 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:08,920 well actually the even before Philippe 487 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:10,160 Spalart's, 488 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:12,079 uh, model, there was the Johnson-King 489 00:17:12,079 --> 00:17:14,319 model, you know, and that that one I 490 00:17:14,319 --> 00:17:16,480 spent a lot of time working with Dennis 491 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:18,640 Johnson and NASA Ames to put that in our 492 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:19,680 code. 493 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:21,920 And and that was a very difficult model 494 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:24,240 to to implement. 495 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:25,280 I'd say 496 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:26,839 in fact if we had to do verification on 497 00:17:26,839 --> 00:17:28,600 that model now, I think most codes would 498 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:30,040 all be giving different answers cuz it 499 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:30,960 was 500 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:32,920 you know, searching along lines to find 501 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:34,520 thing I don't know. It's just 502 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:36,160 not very easy. 503 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:37,920 Mhm. And in fact it was kind of a funny 504 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:40,200 story with that. We had two codes in in 505 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:43,200 our branch, CFL3D and FUN3D and and we 506 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:45,480 started comparing against each other. 507 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:46,840 And at one point we were getting 508 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:49,120 different answers with that model. 509 00:17:49,120 --> 00:17:50,080 And 510 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:52,440 the TLNS3D answers were better compared 511 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:54,520 to certain experiments 512 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:56,200 when we were comparing. But it turned 513 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:58,720 out that that there was a a factor of 514 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:01,600 two error in in their coding. So putting 515 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:03,960 in that factor of two 516 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:05,560 just happened to give a better answer. 517 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:06,960 This is a this is a story of turbulence 518 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:09,360 modelling, right? Yeah. 519 00:18:09,360 --> 00:18:10,880 There's always a two missing or a half 520 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:14,000 missing. Yeah, yeah. 521 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:17,000 Ah, okay. Just so for people to 522 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:19,600 understand, so CFL3D, am I correct that 523 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:22,360 was the structured focused code, is that 524 00:18:22,360 --> 00:18:25,840 right? Well, both TLNS3D and CFL3D are 525 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:27,400 both structured codes. Yeah, they just 526 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:30,040 kind of developed side by side. Um 527 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:31,400 Okay. 528 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:33,520 within the same same branch. And then 529 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:36,400 FUN3D came along. This is also within 530 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:38,800 our branch, came along the unstructured 531 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:40,240 uh 532 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:41,600 code came along around that time, 533 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:43,560 started to build up. 534 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:45,760 Okay, so were you quite involved with 535 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:48,640 FUN3D as well or was it more CFL 536 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:49,520 focused? 537 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:51,720 Yeah, for me it was more CFL3D. Uh the 538 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:53,960 FUN3D I wasn't too involved in until 539 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:55,040 later. 540 00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:57,960 Yeah, maybe in the 2000s I started to 541 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:00,240 get more involved on that team. 542 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:01,560 Now, one of the thing that I was really 543 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:03,560 interested to know 544 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:05,920 the turbulence modelling website Mhm. has 545 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:07,480 become a 546 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:08,720 I mean, almost everybody who's 547 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:11,200 developing turbulence models or 548 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:12,640 or not even developing them, testing 549 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:14,440 them, verifying them, validating them. 550 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:16,720 So, if you go to that website now, but 551 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:19,000 how did it all begin? What How did that 552 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:20,920 even start? 553 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:23,040 Yeah, that um 554 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:26,880 during the early 2000s, I guess. Uh 555 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:27,440 uh 556 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:29,800 Brian Smith from Lockheed Martin and 557 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:32,240 George Wang from um 558 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:34,480 Where is he now? Ohio 559 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:36,240 State One of the One of the universities 560 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:36,960 in 561 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:37,880 up there. 562 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:38,440 Uh 563 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:39,720 we got together and we were talking 564 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:41,840 about this um 565 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:44,000 how it would be nice to have 566 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:45,440 uh 567 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:48,160 a website or a a place where people 568 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:51,000 could go to um 569 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:52,600 see 570 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:55,440 how models behave for basic problems, 571 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:57,280 right? That was the the first idea was 572 00:19:57,280 --> 00:19:59,520 to say, "Okay, well, if I want to run a 573 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:01,520 case that's really dominated by, you 574 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:03,880 know, shear or or 575 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:06,480 a jet an axisymmetric 576 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:08,360 you know, different type If I have this 577 00:20:08,360 --> 00:20:10,080 this dominant 578 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:11,920 basic problem, what is the best model 579 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:13,400 for it?" And to have a place where 580 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:14,720 people could just go and look it up and 581 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:16,320 say like a little library. Say, "Oh, you 582 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:18,040 know, for this type of 583 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:20,080 flow, this is the best model." 584 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:22,680 Uh or or whatever. Or or this is the 585 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:24,800 the flaws of the model here. And uh so, 586 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:26,920 we created this team 587 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:28,600 uh the turbulence model benchmark 588 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:31,040 working group, which still exists today 589 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:34,080 and still meets fairly regularly. Um 590 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:36,240 to to talk about to get together and 591 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:37,640 talk about these things and maybe start 592 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:40,720 to formulate uh plans for that. 593 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:42,120 So, that's really the where it started. 594 00:20:42,120 --> 00:20:43,560 And there were some special sessions at 595 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:46,320 early AIAA meetings where we uh brought 596 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:48,040 up the ideas and talked to people about 597 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:49,080 it. 598 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:51,160 But then, the part of the But the part 599 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:53,840 of the website 600 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:55,960 the verification part, which which I 601 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:57,800 think is maybe had a little bit more 602 00:20:57,800 --> 00:20:59,960 impact now. That was actually something 603 00:20:59,960 --> 00:21:02,800 that I came up with as a total fluke 604 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:04,560 result of what what I would call 605 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:06,080 serendipity. 606 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:08,080 You know, I just something that just 607 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:10,280 happened at a workshop I went to and it 608 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:13,520 was it was something in um 609 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:15,200 it was a workshop in Europe. They used 610 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:16,480 to have these 611 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:18,080 uh I can't remember the names of the 612 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:19,600 workshops, but they were 613 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:20,600 they would get together kind of like 614 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:22,600 they do now and they everyone would run 615 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:24,320 their codes with 616 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:26,480 certain models certain small ones. 617 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:27,840 um a cough tech maybe? 618 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:28,800 It was in a cough tech. It was in a 619 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,600 cough tech. Yeah, sponsored event. 620 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:33,240 And then they would compare results. You 621 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:34,320 know, and usually it was something with 622 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:36,520 separation because no one could do that. 623 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:38,840 Mhm. And then they would um draw 624 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,440 conclusions from them or not which is 625 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:43,560 maybe more often what happened. And and 626 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:46,280 at at this at this workshop at one point 627 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:47,920 there was um 628 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:49,880 they were showing results and I was I 629 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,200 was using CFL3D with a Spalart–Allmaras 630 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:53,320 model. 631 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:55,280 And it turns out that another 632 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:57,600 group, I think it was ONERA 633 00:21:57,600 --> 00:21:58,880 was using 634 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:00,520 I believe it was ELSA, but one of their 635 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:02,600 codes using the same model 636 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:03,880 and there were all these results, but 637 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:06,640 these two results right dead on top of 638 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:08,560 each other. And it was it was these two 639 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:10,680 code results and I realized then that 640 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:11,920 said, you know, this is a good way to 641 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:13,760 determine whether 642 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:15,280 you're um 643 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:17,440 you've coded it correctly. If two people 644 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:19,960 because it's so much more likely 645 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:22,200 that if you get the same answer what's 646 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:24,680 the what are the chances of 647 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:26,600 of of a coding error 648 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:28,840 if two are absolutely dead on top of 649 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:30,280 each other like that. 650 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:31,600 Mhm. And so it just struck me that that 651 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:33,320 was a way of 652 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:34,800 um 653 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:37,120 doing a kind of cheap verification, you 654 00:22:37,120 --> 00:22:38,960 know, without 655 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:40,840 you know, the formal 656 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:42,720 method of manufactured solutions or or 657 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:45,360 other methodology, but just just 658 00:22:45,360 --> 00:22:46,960 you know, the the on the more codes you 659 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:48,400 compare and the more the degree the more 660 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:50,480 confidence you have in that this is 661 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:51,880 right. 662 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:54,400 And um do you have any stats on that? Do 663 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:55,520 you know how many people actually go to 664 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:57,160 that website? 665 00:22:57,160 --> 00:22:59,480 Do you have a ton of any Yeah, I mean 666 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:01,320 I've it's that's hard to say because 667 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:04,080 they have these, you know, Google um 668 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:05,160 has a 669 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:07,760 a way of uh tracking these things, but I 670 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:08,880 don't know what these numbers actually 671 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:11,200 mean because it's is I don't know 672 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:12,800 whether it's actually people going to it 673 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,600 or or robots going to it. I I don't know 674 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:16,800 what it is. 675 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:19,800 But uh yeah, it's it's it's quite a bit. 676 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,200 I can't remember maybe 40,000 a month or 677 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:24,560 something like that at the most, yeah. 678 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:26,800 It's a lot. I'm sure it is cuz everybody 679 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:28,440 seems to go there. 680 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:31,040 It's um I mean, it is a credit that you 681 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:33,480 know, Brian himself and the rest still 682 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:35,960 keep this going because uh 683 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:38,080 I I used it in my PhD. I think most 684 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:40,720 people do it. It's it's such a But I 685 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:42,240 always feel bad for you cuz it seems 686 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:45,240 like I your website coding skills quite 687 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:46,800 good now because you always seem to be 688 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:50,320 updating websites. Oh, yeah. 689 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:51,680 That that's happened. And then one 690 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:53,280 unintended consequence of the website, 691 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:55,280 too, was just I didn't realize this at 692 00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:57,240 the time, but having one place just to 693 00:23:57,240 --> 00:23:59,600 go for information like that is really 694 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:00,520 it's I mean, I do it all the time 695 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:02,120 myself. Like instead of 696 00:24:02,120 --> 00:24:03,520 having to say, "Okay, well, I got to 697 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:05,480 look up this thing in in the Broughton's 698 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:07,360 model." So, you have to find the paper 699 00:24:07,360 --> 00:24:08,480 and you have to remember where the paper 700 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:09,560 was. You have to remember which year it 701 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:12,520 was published. And this way it's just 702 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:14,200 one it takes you 10 seconds and you're 703 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:15,840 and you're there. One of the things that 704 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,480 stood out in that 2030 report was the 705 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:20,400 lack of machine learning. 706 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:22,400 It it's kind of incredible in a way. If 707 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:24,240 I'm not mistaken, there was very little 708 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:26,160 mention if if at all Yeah. 709 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,520 about machine learning and fast forward 710 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:32,040 to now and it's So, is that What Where 711 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:33,400 do you 712 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:35,120 I mean, this is a big topic, but so 713 00:24:35,120 --> 00:24:37,120 let's say first of all, the turbulence 714 00:24:37,120 --> 00:24:40,400 modelling, where do you see 715 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:42,560 the role of machine learning? Are Are 716 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:46,480 you positive about? Are you thinking 717 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:49,560 there's over hype in this area around 718 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:51,480 turbulence modelling to begin with? 719 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:53,200 Yeah, I think there's a little bit of 720 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:55,400 over hype and it's coming back down to 721 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:57,720 ground now a little bit because I think 722 00:24:57,720 --> 00:24:59,840 at the time well first of all I think 723 00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:02,160 when the when the 2014 report came out 724 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:03,680 there wasn't much machine learning out 725 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:05,440 there. I mean there it was there but not 726 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:07,240 so much in our field. So I it wasn't 727 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:09,280 even in the the authors 728 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:13,280 brains at that point. But um 729 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:15,960 I think then that that the thought there 730 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:17,320 was a lot of thought that oh well this 731 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:18,600 is going to answer everything within a 732 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:20,360 few years we'll have all the answers and 733 00:25:20,360 --> 00:25:21,320 and that 734 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:23,360 did not pan out and now I think maybe 735 00:25:23,360 --> 00:25:24,680 the thinking more is that machine 736 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:26,880 learning 737 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,560 in conjunction with someone who 738 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:31,880 understands turbulence like a turbulence 739 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:33,240 model developer 740 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:35,240 somehow working hand in hand and maybe 741 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:36,960 it like another tool that could be used 742 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,240 to help the turbulence modeler develop 743 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,120 something but that the machine learning 744 00:25:41,120 --> 00:25:42,600 itself 745 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:44,720 it is it's it's not going to do it on 746 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:45,920 its own. 747 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:47,880 So yeah we were talking um before about 748 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:51,240 the high-lift. So where did um 749 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:52,640 I guess similar to the turbulence 750 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:53,800 modelling 751 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,840 website high-lift workshop among some of 752 00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:59,080 the other workshop as 753 00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:01,640 I would say been responsible for pushing 754 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:03,320 a lot of the innovation particularly 755 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:06,160 around scale resolving methods. I think 756 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,120 the past few years 757 00:26:08,120 --> 00:26:10,320 um there's been a lot of advances on 758 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,320 that but what where did that actually 759 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:13,600 start 760 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:15,480 the the high-lift workshop? Do you 761 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:17,760 remember the origins? 762 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:19,840 Well I mean I guess the drag prediction 763 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,800 workshop came first and became the the 764 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:25,280 source for a lot of ideas for for 765 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:28,160 workshop subsequently but um 766 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:30,600 yeah the high-lift workshop was uh I 767 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:33,080 guess it was a the brainchild of uh the 768 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:35,480 NASA collaboration with folks at uh 769 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:37,880 Boeing and um another 770 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:38,840 uh 771 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,560 of the commercial companies that where 772 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,080 high-lift was the the solution or the 773 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:46,680 need to solve high-lift accurately with 774 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:49,360 CFD it was seen as a major stumbling 775 00:26:49,360 --> 00:26:51,960 block and and it's you know still is 776 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,480 today, you know, that's not not really 777 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,200 known exactly how to confidently do 778 00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:00,600 that. And so the workshops were they saw 779 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:01,920 the drag prediction workshops and said, 780 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:03,280 "Well, we should do this for high-lift 781 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:04,840 and really bring the community together 782 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:06,600 to to try to 783 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:08,840 put our brains in one place and get get 784 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:10,680 something working better." 785 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,680 And where do you see it from then 786 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:14,920 to now? 787 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:17,240 How how have you seen the progression 788 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:19,440 being in terms of accuracy, in terms of 789 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:21,600 capability? 790 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,960 Well, I guess the first three workshops 791 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:26,640 were almost all Reynolds-averaged 792 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:28,560 Navier–Stokes. 793 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:30,760 And one of our big conclusions so far 794 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:32,320 has been that Reynolds-averaged 795 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,360 Navier–Stokes cannot 796 00:27:35,360 --> 00:27:37,520 consistently and accurately predict 797 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:39,440 separated flow. So, it consist it cannot 798 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:41,680 consistently and accurately predict high 799 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:43,120 lift 800 00:27:43,120 --> 00:27:45,520 uh the high-lift flows. 801 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:49,600 So, for a lot of it, it was uh 802 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:51,040 not much progression other than just 803 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:52,960 confirmation every time that, you know, 804 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,640 we can't do it or we have this issue. 805 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:57,840 And then very slowly over the last 806 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,680 couple of workshops, we've had more of 807 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:02,840 the scale resolving type of simulations 808 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:04,040 enter into the 809 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:05,080 picture. 810 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:06,720 And we're seeing now the the push in 811 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:09,040 that direction and seeing how 812 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:11,480 it it's still not perfect, but those and 813 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:13,960 those methods still have a lot of 814 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:15,160 There's so many out there, so many 815 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:16,440 different ways of 816 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:17,960 approaching it. 817 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:20,360 But we see that the the flow physics is 818 00:28:20,360 --> 00:28:22,960 better captured by those methods. We see 819 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:23,760 the 820 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:24,920 um 821 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,760 uh the separation patterns and the 822 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,440 the reasons for the stall that happened 823 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,600 near near maximum lift 824 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:35,480 are being captured by those methods. But 825 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:37,480 do you think therefore we're close to 826 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:39,320 solving this problem? Where do you see 827 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,080 as the 828 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:45,200 Well, I think it's it's certainly 829 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,160 closer, you know, 830 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:50,280 in projects we often have, you know, 831 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:52,720 milestones and uh 832 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:56,120 and points where we declare success. 833 00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:58,120 And it's it's it it's maybe almost too 834 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:00,320 easy to say, "Yeah, we've solved it." 835 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:02,240 When really there's 836 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:03,680 it just made a step in the right 837 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:05,320 direction and it's it's certainly 838 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:07,040 getting it better, but there's 839 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:09,240 still a ways to go. I saw you just 840 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,240 recently did um 841 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:13,400 a paper which which I guess all of this 842 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,040 is sort of leading to, isn't it? Which 843 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,760 is this certification by analysis. 844 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:19,360 Um 845 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:21,480 where do you see that being and maybe 846 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:23,960 you could explain just this terminology. 847 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:25,320 I guess some people call it digital 848 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:26,720 certification, some people call it 849 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:28,160 certification. 850 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:30,800 How would you explain it and why is it 851 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,720 an important thing for for NASA and and 852 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:35,040 others? 853 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:36,520 Yeah, well well it's important thing 854 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:38,520 especially for the aircraft industry. I 855 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:40,800 guess NASA is hoping to support that 856 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:43,360 that goal. But it's um the idea that 857 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,080 right now when they design airplanes, 858 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:48,720 there's a lot of uh wind tunnel and 859 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:51,080 flight tests that are very expensive 860 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:52,880 that take place during the certification 861 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:54,280 process. 862 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:59,120 And the hope is that some aspects of the 863 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:01,360 certification testing could be done by 864 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:03,000 CFD 865 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:04,640 in combination with 866 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:06,280 uh with the others. 867 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:08,720 That would lessen the the need for all 868 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:10,960 of the expensive 869 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:13,520 uh especially the flight flight testing, 870 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:15,840 but all to reduce the expense of of the 871 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:17,040 testing. 872 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:18,760 So to get to that point though, there 873 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:22,280 has to be a extremely high trust in the 874 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,760 CFD that that what it's doing is 875 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:27,240 as good 876 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:28,680 as the um 877 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:30,760 the other type of testing. 878 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:32,440 And so that's the hope. 879 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:34,120 At this point 880 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:36,080 I think it's not there, but uh that's 881 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:37,800 that's the idea of 882 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:39,280 push toward that goal. 883 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:41,160 I I think that's the one where I find 884 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:42,600 particularly interesting around machine 885 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:44,920 learning because 886 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:47,000 I guess if you're going to do 887 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:48,000 the way I see it, certification by 888 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,760 analysis makes sense. It takes a you 889 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,760 know, billions of dollars, years to do a 890 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:55,840 lot of the wind tunnel and flight tests 891 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:56,960 that 892 00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:58,880 will still need to be done, but it I 893 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:00,520 guess it's just reducing the number of 894 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:01,720 them 895 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:03,880 um such that the ones that they do do 896 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,080 could maybe be more high fidelity or you 897 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:06,800 know, 898 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:08,320 more detailed. 899 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:10,400 Um and it seems like scale resolving 900 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:12,040 methods are 901 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:13,800 the sort of methods that could help in 902 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:15,760 that. But then this is where the 903 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:17,280 interest in machine learning comes in 904 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,000 cuz there's a lot of a lot of talk of of 905 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:21,920 machine learning, but 906 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,000 the issue then is the reproducibility 907 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,680 and can you explain it? I guess if you 908 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,120 take a scale resolving, you can say it's 909 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:30,520 solving these equations with this 910 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:32,600 numerical scheme. You can sort of 911 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:34,440 there's a theory 912 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:36,480 how you get to the answer, isn't there? 913 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:38,000 Where 914 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:41,240 most people cannot exactly explain how a 915 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:43,160 machine learning model gets to the 916 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:45,480 answer. You know what I mean? Like how 917 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:46,800 The computer can't even tell you how it 918 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,240 gets the Yeah, so I do kind of wonder 919 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:51,480 whether there's a bit of an opposing 920 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:53,240 challenge here that machine learning may 921 00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:55,120 offer the challenge to do things faster 922 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:56,800 and cheaper, 923 00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:58,800 but does it meet the test of being fully 924 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,000 explainable and reproducible 925 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:03,160 such that 926 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:07,400 you can use it to do Right. Um cuz 927 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:09,080 there's a lot of 928 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:11,240 I think the reason I'm saying this is 929 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:12,800 you know how it is, there's always when 930 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:14,760 it comes to funding 931 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:15,960 there's buzzwords, isn't there? There's 932 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:17,280 there's there's things that attract 933 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:19,200 funding. So for a while RANS was it. I 934 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:20,800 think now it's almost the opposite where 935 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:23,320 if you put RANS in your funding proposal 936 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:25,040 This is what a lot of academics tell me. 937 00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:26,560 They say that is a guaranteed way for it 938 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,080 not to be funded because they say it's 939 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:30,080 all been done. 940 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:30,440 Yeah. 941 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:31,240 Yeah. 942 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:32,600 And then it was all about scale 943 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,080 resolving. And that was the way to get 944 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:37,720 things funded, but it feels like now 945 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:38,960 if you just say you're doing scale 946 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,480 resolving, that's not considered novel 947 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:42,920 enough. That's what everyone does it 948 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:44,400 now. Yeah. You see, you have to do 949 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,000 machine learning. Mhm. And uh the sort 950 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:49,200 of concern is if all the money is put 951 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:51,080 into the machine learning 952 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,400 for partially good reason, 953 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:55,760 does it actually take money away 954 00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:57,600 from perhaps some of the methods 955 00:32:57,600 --> 00:32:59,560 that ultimately may 956 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:01,120 need to be used because of this 957 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:02,840 reproduce You know what 958 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,120 Do you see that? Do you see many of the 959 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:07,160 NASA project or not just NASA, but just 960 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:08,040 projects you're involved in? 961 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:09,480 Well, in general, yeah, I think so. It's 962 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:11,160 like It's like buzzword funding. Yeah, 963 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:12,840 you you 964 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:14,680 you almost have to have to do that to to 965 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:16,320 get funding. And this is one of the 966 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:17,800 concerns about the turbulence model 967 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:19,600 benchmarking working group. It's a big 968 00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:22,120 mouthful to say. They um 969 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:23,960 you know, that group in general feels 970 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:25,120 that that 971 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:26,400 RANS, you know, because 972 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:27,960 Reynolds-averaged Navier–Stokes will be around 973 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:30,000 for a long time. It's It's a very useful 974 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:32,400 and usable method. We shouldn't 975 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:33,480 just 976 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:35,080 fix it in time and stagnate it. There 977 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:37,120 should be continued development. And so, 978 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:38,320 there's there 979 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:40,080 It would be nice to have continued 980 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:41,920 funding to some degree to some level for 981 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:43,080 that effort. 982 00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:45,040 Mhm. Yeah. 983 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:47,000 I guess this is always the challenge of 984 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:48,760 um 985 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,080 existing method versus new methods. You 986 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:52,880 know, you have to sort of keep things 987 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:53,960 going, 988 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,000 but if you lose the older methods, yeah, 989 00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:58,840 it's it's tricky. Um 990 00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:00,880 I I was keen to to take a slightly 991 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:05,440 different turn. Um Uh-oh. 992 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:09,000 No, in a in a positive way. Um 993 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:10,240 Okay. 994 00:34:10,240 --> 00:34:12,280 What's the best conference you've ever 995 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:14,840 been to? 996 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:18,120 Okay, the best conference I've ever been 997 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:20,159 to. 998 00:34:20,159 --> 00:34:23,240 That's uh not a question I was expecting 999 00:34:23,240 --> 00:34:25,600 to 1000 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:28,360 Well, I've been to so many AIAA 1001 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:30,480 conferences, right? I mean, I've been to 1002 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:32,800 Reno probably eight times. 1003 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:34,919 Uh Uh 1004 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:38,440 maybe maybe 50 AIAA conferences in my 1005 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:42,320 life. Um so, it's hard to say if if if 1006 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:43,840 they're I mean, I always enjoy them and 1007 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:45,280 they're and they're very good. So, I 1008 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:47,200 have to think of a novel conference 1009 00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:50,120 that's something out of the ordinary 1010 00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:54,040 that I've been to. Um 1011 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:56,159 well, I would have to say probably one 1012 00:34:56,159 --> 00:34:58,200 of one of the workshop that one of the 1013 00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:00,280 first workshops I went to in Europe 1014 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:02,880 where this idea for the 1015 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:04,480 turbulence model 1016 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:06,080 verification 1017 00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:09,000 came about. That I think that was a 1018 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:10,360 I always think back fondly on that 1019 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:11,520 workshop. First of all, because it was 1020 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:13,120 in France. Okay. 1021 00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:14,920 And uh you know, I hadn't been there 1022 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:16,240 before. 1023 00:35:16,240 --> 00:35:19,000 And they had wine for lunch. See, there 1024 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,280 we go. 1025 00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:23,880 But I just think fondly on it just from 1026 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:26,800 the fact that that was where 1027 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:28,560 you know, the idea first came to me for 1028 00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:31,960 the for the turbulence modelling website. 1029 00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:35,640 Did the wine help the idea of I don't 1030 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,320 think so, no. 1031 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:40,280 Do you remember where in France that 1032 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:41,240 was? 1033 00:35:41,240 --> 00:35:44,120 Uh that I think that was in Poitiers. 1034 00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:45,360 Okay. Yeah. 1035 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:45,760 Okay. 1036 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:48,200 Yeah. Where Joan of Arc was 1037 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:49,960 tried or burned or something. I don't 1038 00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:50,440 know. 1039 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:53,200 Okay. It was part of the tour there. 1040 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:56,560 Yeah, I mean, I love the AIAA, but um 1041 00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:59,520 you know, there is something nice. I see 1042 00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:01,280 the value The AIAA 1043 00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:02,720 conferences are fantastic as a 1044 00:36:02,720 --> 00:36:04,880 networking event to see everybody in one 1045 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,200 place. It sort of saves you 1046 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:08,520 the you know everyone's going to be 1047 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:10,840 there. That's right. To a certain point. 1048 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:12,920 Um but 1049 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:15,120 there is a value to sometimes these 1050 00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:17,760 smaller workshops that have a 1051 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:21,280 a very targeted focus. Um and I must 1052 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:23,440 admit I do kind of like 1053 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:25,600 these ones. Um 1054 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:27,640 I'm a bit of I'm obviously a bit biased 1055 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:29,400 being in Europe myself, but there tends 1056 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:30,720 to be a sort of 1057 00:36:30,720 --> 00:36:34,280 a large social aspect to it, which is 1058 00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:36,440 quite helpful to to sort of start 1059 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:38,720 ideating ideas. Um 1060 00:36:38,720 --> 00:36:40,720 Yeah, and you meet new people because 1061 00:36:40,720 --> 00:36:42,520 it's a place you don't ordinarily go and 1062 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:44,720 it's out of your normal wheelhouse. So, 1063 00:36:44,720 --> 00:36:46,840 that's always nice, too. 1064 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:48,080 Okay, so 1065 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:49,360 the um 1066 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:50,520 maybe we can find the name. It was 1067 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:52,200 probably in a cough tech thing. I think 1068 00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:52,800 I may 1069 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:54,720 I think it was, yeah. That 1070 00:36:54,720 --> 00:36:57,880 That reminds me. I've seen some reports. 1071 00:36:57,880 --> 00:36:59,200 I can try and find I can maybe put in 1072 00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:00,920 the show comments. Okay, what was the 1073 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:04,120 worst conference? 1074 00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:07,800 Uh The worst location for a conference. 1075 00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:11,440 Uh the worst conference 1076 00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:16,160 Well, maybe the uh the one that was held 1077 00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:18,760 here in uh in Norfolk. There was an AIAA 1078 00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:20,520 held in Norfolk, so it was so close that 1079 00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:23,160 we just had to drive to and from it. 1080 00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:24,640 And you couldn't even stay. You couldn't 1081 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:26,720 justify Couldn't even justify staying. 1082 00:37:26,720 --> 00:37:29,160 You just had to drive from home, yeah. 1083 00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:31,640 What about Didn't they used to go um 1084 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:33,360 This was before I think So, what's the 1085 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:35,680 history of Reno? Was it always in Reno? 1086 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:37,120 Was that the thing? 1087 00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:39,240 And someone told me that there was like 1088 00:37:39,240 --> 00:37:40,800 but it was there for many, many years. I 1089 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,080 think AIAA had a nice deal there. Maybe 1090 00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:45,200 that was the reason, but it was also 1091 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:46,960 very inexpensive place to stay. I 1092 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:50,200 remember $55 a night was the uh 1093 00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:52,120 the cost of the the room for many, many 1094 00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:54,520 years. 1095 00:37:54,720 --> 00:37:55,800 Wow. Okay. 1096 00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:57,240 hard to get to. That was the hard part 1097 00:37:57,240 --> 00:37:59,600 because it was in in January. 1098 00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:01,320 And then, of course, in Reno depends on 1099 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:02,680 the weather, you know, and it was often 1100 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:04,200 fogged in. 1101 00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:05,760 It was one time we had to drive through 1102 00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:08,080 a snowstorm from San Francisco to get 1103 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:09,600 there because the flights weren't 1104 00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:11,320 weren't going in. 1105 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:13,520 Wow. That's crazy. Yeah, 1106 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:15,680 I think one of my um 1107 00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:17,200 favorite conference I don't know if they 1108 00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:19,200 still have this philosophy. I think they 1109 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,800 did, which was um 1110 00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:23,920 ETMM. 1111 00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:27,560 This is the European Turbulence 1112 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:30,800 modelling and 1113 00:38:31,240 --> 00:38:32,960 I should know what the acronym is. And 1114 00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:34,320 something measurement, something like 1115 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:35,520 that. 1116 00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:38,000 And someone told me that the if you 1117 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,480 wanted to be an organizer, one of the 1118 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:43,080 requirements they had is that ETMM must 1119 00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:45,680 always be by the a beach. 1120 00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:48,560 That's right. I think I heard that, too. 1121 00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:49,880 Yeah. And 1122 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:53,480 but it did make it a very nice 1123 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:54,880 event 1124 00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:56,680 to do. So that I think there was one in 1125 00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:58,600 I'm not sure if you were there. 1126 00:38:58,600 --> 00:38:59,960 Yeah, I went to I went to the one recent 1127 00:38:59,960 --> 00:39:01,640 I've I've never been to any of those, 1128 00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:03,080 but I went to one recently. I think that 1129 00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:04,440 was the one in 1130 00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:06,640 near Barcelona. Was that the one in 1131 00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:08,640 there was one in Marbella 1132 00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:11,160 that I I think I went to. Okay. 1133 00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:12,560 That was one. The only one that I'm 1134 00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:15,000 jealous of is every time the AIAA seems 1135 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:17,120 to have something in Hawaii. Which is 1136 00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:19,440 not very often nowadays. I've never been 1137 00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:21,560 able to make but I do seem to remember 1138 00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:24,440 that about 10 years ago it was in Hawaii 1139 00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:26,280 and all the European people I knew were 1140 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:28,120 trying to desperately put together 1141 00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:30,240 abstracts to justify 1142 00:39:30,240 --> 00:39:32,800 going. Yeah. Going to Hawaii. 1143 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:34,240 There was a big flak when they first had 1144 00:39:34,240 --> 00:39:37,320 it in Hawaii. Some of the NASA managers 1145 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:39,440 were saying this doesn't this isn't 1146 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:41,360 right because it's like you're going to 1147 00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:43,480 a resort. It doesn't 1148 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:44,400 you know, 1149 00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:45,920 it's not right for a government person 1150 00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:49,760 to go to a resort. We have to be 1151 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,160 Yeah. Yeah, no, no, no. I especially 1152 00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:53,520 whenever there's times of sort of 1153 00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:56,840 economic crunch. I guess those uh 1154 00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,120 those get more challenging. Um 1155 00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:00,560 how about 1156 00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:02,760 one of the things that I've 1157 00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:03,800 I've always 1158 00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:05,240 keen to do and I guess part of the 1159 00:40:05,240 --> 00:40:06,760 reason for you been doing this podcast 1160 00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:07,800 was 1161 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:09,440 to help people who are maybe a bit 1162 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:11,240 earlier in their careers and they're not 1163 00:40:11,240 --> 00:40:15,480 so clear sort of you know, how to 1164 00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:17,360 progress in you know, throughout 1165 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:19,400 throughout career. Mhm. What would be 1166 00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:21,280 your advice, and I don't know if you do 1167 00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:24,400 mentor people or help people in terms of 1168 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:26,840 working for NASA? Do you What are the 1169 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,080 routes? So, if you're, let's say, an 1170 00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:32,360 undergraduate or school um kid in the 1171 00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:33,400 US, 1172 00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:36,880 what routes are there to ultimately get 1173 00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:39,720 to to NASA? 1174 00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:41,760 Well, I think part of part of working 1175 00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:43,680 for NASA is is 1176 00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:45,960 being lucky because they don't hire very 1177 00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:48,560 often and and it's it's very competitive 1178 00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:51,000 to get in, but um 1179 00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:52,960 uh the job itself is great, you know, 1180 00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:54,320 because there's a certain amount of a 1181 00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:57,160 autonomy. It's probably similar to being 1182 00:40:57,160 --> 00:40:59,520 uh in in a university to some degree, 1183 00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:01,360 although maybe a little less 1184 00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:03,880 pressure from the point of view of 1185 00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:04,960 Having to get 1186 00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:08,480 get funding, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But uh 1187 00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:10,000 yeah, I mean, I guess 1188 00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:10,800 I 1189 00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:12,440 the kind of advice I would give would be 1190 00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:14,600 I mean, to always say 1191 00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:15,880 at least when you're young, to always 1192 00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:18,680 say yes, you know, to anything and sign 1193 00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:20,440 up for things and and try new things 1194 00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:21,920 that are um 1195 00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:23,680 that are challenging that 1196 00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:24,680 uh 1197 00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:26,400 no one else wants to do because you 1198 00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:29,080 you'll always learn something from it. 1199 00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:31,200 And then also, I think hook on to things 1200 00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:34,240 that happen by chance and and 1201 00:41:34,240 --> 00:41:35,720 if if you see something that happens by 1202 00:41:35,720 --> 00:41:37,720 chance, then it's uh 1203 00:41:37,720 --> 00:41:40,680 a potential route to follow, you know, 1204 00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:42,320 follow it if you can. 1205 00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:44,760 Mhm. But, do you have Are you aware of 1206 00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:46,680 like even in Langley, do they do 1207 00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:48,360 internships? Do you You know, if you're 1208 00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:50,920 like an undergraduate, can you come over 1209 00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:52,640 to do Are there those sort of programs? 1210 00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:53,720 Yeah, they do have they do have 1211 00:41:53,720 --> 00:41:55,440 internships. Um 1212 00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:57,960 there's a it's an official site I mean, 1213 00:41:57,960 --> 00:41:59,080 it's changed over the years how they've 1214 00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:02,760 done it. Uh but but there's a a 1215 00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:04,240 uh internship program where they bring 1216 00:42:04,240 --> 00:42:07,040 in even high school students, college 1217 00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:09,280 students, various different levels. 1218 00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:10,120 Mhm. 1219 00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:12,280 And how does it I think I know the 1220 00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:13,360 answer to this, but maybe it's 1221 00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:15,720 interesting for others to know. So, 1222 00:42:15,720 --> 00:42:17,400 you join at NASA, 1223 00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:19,680 correct? And 1224 00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:21,720 am I right in that 1225 00:42:21,720 --> 00:42:24,960 when you first join, you either 1226 00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:26,840 you quite often join 1227 00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:28,960 as um 1228 00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:30,480 like a contractor almost? Would that be 1229 00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:33,160 right to say that that there's a sort of 1230 00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:34,280 Do you Do you know what I'm getting at? 1231 00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:34,440 And 1232 00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:36,360 Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Could you 1233 00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:37,000 explain maybe 1234 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:38,600 have civil servants and they have 1235 00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:40,440 contractors, yeah. Now, the civil 1236 00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:42,400 servants are the are the difficult the 1237 00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:43,960 ones that don't open up so often. There 1238 00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:46,000 aren't often uh positions or the 1239 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:48,320 positions are very few and far between. 1240 00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:49,880 Uh so often 1241 00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:50,520 uh 1242 00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:52,160 they'll have contractor positions. And I 1243 00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:54,040 think even now they've even changed the 1244 00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:55,680 positions uh 1245 00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:57,600 maybe not to not be a lifetime position. 1246 00:42:57,600 --> 00:42:59,760 They'll be like term hires. 1247 00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:01,600 As a way of um 1248 00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:04,000 trying to limit the 1249 00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:06,200 the the number of 1250 00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:07,120 civil servants. 1251 00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:09,200 civil servants, yeah. So, term hires or 1252 00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:10,640 which would be you know, it'll be a 1253 00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:13,160 5-year position, renewable depending on 1254 00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:15,480 your uh 1255 00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:17,280 Ah, okay. 1256 00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:19,840 how how well you do or you know, your 1257 00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:23,040 the needs for the pro- of the projects. 1258 00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:24,280 I don't I guess this must be very 1259 00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:26,040 difficult across NASA, but I you 1260 00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:27,200 mentioned that and I've always wondered 1261 00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:28,400 myself 1262 00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:31,080 like with a university. So, is it meant 1263 00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:33,880 Is it essentially that 1264 00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:36,000 as a 1265 00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:37,360 you're sort of treated as your own 1266 00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:39,360 specialist where you sort of have a a 1267 00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:41,000 freedom 1268 00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:44,320 to work on your own projects as well as 1269 00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:46,320 you're assigned projects to work on? Is 1270 00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:47,760 that kind of how it is? There's a bit of 1271 00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:49,680 a blend between the two. There's some 1272 00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:51,840 independent work and there's some 1273 00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:53,880 some project work? 1274 00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:55,800 Yeah, well, I think the way it it 1275 00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:58,560 optimally works is well, 50% of your 1276 00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:00,320 time is spent reading emails, right? 1277 00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:02,680 Like but nowadays. 1278 00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:04,240 But among the among the time when you 1279 00:44:04,240 --> 00:44:05,720 actually do work, 1280 00:44:05,720 --> 00:44:06,280 uh 1281 00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:08,480 so the projects, you know, 1282 00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:09,720 when you're first hired especially, you 1283 00:44:09,720 --> 00:44:11,160 know, you you're you're given a project 1284 00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:12,280 and you're you're expected to work on 1285 00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:13,920 the project. I think as you become more 1286 00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:15,600 and more senior, you you have more of a 1287 00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:18,160 say in contributing to what the projects 1288 00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:19,920 are doing, right? Cuz projects often get 1289 00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:22,040 their ideas from the 1290 00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:23,600 the the people that work there, you 1291 00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:25,360 know, the senior members will help 1292 00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:27,680 define what the project's 1293 00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:29,080 goals are. 1294 00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:32,080 Uh, but then every individual also is 1295 00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:33,400 given 1296 00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:36,240 I mean, again, this is in theory, given 1297 00:44:36,240 --> 00:44:38,440 like 15% of their time to do whatever 1298 00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:40,440 they want, you know, this is a white 1299 00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:43,280 space type of activity where they 1300 00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:45,800 encourage you to go try something that 1301 00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:47,480 that you saw that you 1302 00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:49,720 didn't you know, it's not necessarily a 1303 00:44:49,720 --> 00:44:51,280 project 1304 00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:53,000 goal, but something that you think might 1305 00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:55,520 turn out good and give give something. 1306 00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:57,120 So, the problem, of course, is finding 1307 00:44:57,120 --> 00:44:59,040 that 15% sometimes, 1308 00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:00,120 especially with the with the all the 1309 00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:02,160 emails. 1310 00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:04,200 Yeah, I know I can 1311 00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:05,160 I can imagine. 1312 00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:07,560 Did you ever 1313 00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:10,160 There's often a debate, academia, 1314 00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:12,720 industry, government. Mhm. 1315 00:45:12,720 --> 00:45:16,360 Were you ever tempted to go to an 1316 00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:18,920 industry position, you know, to to leave 1317 00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:21,480 NASA? 1318 00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:23,800 Yeah, I'd say you know, 1319 00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:25,440 throughout my career I've had several 1320 00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:27,360 times when I thought, well, I've done 1321 00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:29,120 this long enough, I should I should do 1322 00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:31,840 something different and thought about 1323 00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:33,640 what if I worked at Pixar, you know, I 1324 00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:33,920 mean 1325 00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:36,280 Oh, wow. 1326 00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:38,120 or or Tesla or something, you know. 1327 00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:40,800 Yeah. Yeah, but never got beyond the 1328 00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:43,640 point of just kind of thinking about it. 1329 00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:45,760 But, uh, 1330 00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:48,120 yeah, yeah, and then at one point so 1331 00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:49,720 some folks have left NASA and worked at 1332 00:45:49,720 --> 00:45:51,960 universities, um, and then sometimes 1333 00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:54,120 they come back and or they've 1334 00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:56,160 migrated from universities to NASA. It's 1335 00:45:56,160 --> 00:45:57,520 very different. I mean, we're we're 1336 00:45:57,520 --> 00:45:59,800 similar to university. I think we're 1337 00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:01,520 there's a lot 1338 00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:04,320 uh, it's kind of an academic feel to 1339 00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:06,640 working at NASA. Very very academic 1340 00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:08,800 environment in general. 1341 00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:12,440 But we do have very definitive project 1342 00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:15,480 goals and project thrusts. 1343 00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:18,240 So therefore there's milestones and and 1344 00:46:18,240 --> 00:46:20,880 needs you know NASA type 1345 00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:22,880 you know 1346 00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:25,640 thrust and goals that that that define 1347 00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:27,040 you where which where you may not have 1348 00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:29,040 that in in a in university environment 1349 00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:30,040 but then of course university 1350 00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:31,560 environment there's other pressures of 1351 00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:34,080 trying to get funding from places like 1352 00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:35,160 NASA. 1353 00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:35,600 Yeah. 1354 00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:36,920 of course industry there's always the 1355 00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:38,080 worry of 1356 00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:40,760 the ups and down swings in the in the in 1357 00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:42,440 the industry. 1358 00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:44,280 So what's kept you is there a certain 1359 00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:45,400 thing of 1360 00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:47,720 are you over the NASA thing or do you 1361 00:46:47,720 --> 00:46:49,680 have any moments like I don't know if 1362 00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:52,080 you ever work then wear the NASA t-shirt 1363 00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:53,880 when you go through are there any times 1364 00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:55,520 when you you sort of have that moment 1365 00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:56,680 you go oh actually this is pretty cool 1366 00:46:56,680 --> 00:46:58,280 that I work. Is there anything that 1367 00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:01,040 keeps you basically at NASA like that? 1368 00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:02,720 Yeah I think that there's that that 1369 00:47:02,720 --> 00:47:03,960 factor. 1370 00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:05,560 There there's been a lot of a lot of 1371 00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:06,960 times where you run into people and you 1372 00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:09,040 say you work at NASA and they all go woo 1373 00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:10,800 you know. And then you say well that's 1374 00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:12,320 the aeronautical side of NASA and they 1375 00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:14,040 say the what? 1376 00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:16,560 I was going to ask you about 1377 00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:18,200 Yeah everyone thinks of the the space 1378 00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:20,280 space part of it. But I I think I I've 1379 00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:22,640 really enjoyed working here. It's been a 1380 00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:23,880 you know 1381 00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:25,240 it's nothing's perfect and there's 1382 00:47:25,240 --> 00:47:26,720 always you know the grass is greener 1383 00:47:26,720 --> 00:47:27,880 thoughts. 1384 00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:29,800 But but overall I'd say it's been a a 1385 00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:31,800 really good place to work. You said 1386 00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:33,040 right at the beginning that you 1387 00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:36,480 attempted to to go into art. So have you 1388 00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:37,960 managed to 1389 00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:40,800 keep that balance? Do do you still draw? 1390 00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:42,160 Do you 1391 00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:43,480 have you managed to sort of keep that 1392 00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:44,960 hobby 1393 00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:46,840 alive? 1394 00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:50,040 Yes and no. It's it's gone in cycles 1395 00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:52,840 like anything. It it it's it's energy 1396 00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:55,000 right? I mean if if I have 1397 00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:56,440 Uh been a time in my life when I had a 1398 00:47:56,440 --> 00:47:59,080 lot of energy and every night I would do 1399 00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:00,080 um 1400 00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:02,600 some kind of art project or or something 1401 00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:04,680 just just for fun. Try to enter in 1402 00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:07,600 shows. At one point I was a a member of 1403 00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:08,400 uh 1404 00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:10,480 art alliance from the Hampton Roads 1405 00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:12,800 area. So I would be constantly going to 1406 00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:15,040 and from there. But then, you know, 1407 00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:17,280 you get tired of that and 1408 00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:18,840 the cycle cycles 1409 00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:20,160 cycle out of that and then everything 1410 00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:21,520 gets packed up and put on a shelf 1411 00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:23,320 somewhere and you don't do much. 1412 00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:25,800 Mhm. But 1413 00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:27,880 Do you think that advice is right though 1414 00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:29,680 about 1415 00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:31,720 art you know, a job that pays well and 1416 00:48:31,720 --> 00:48:33,360 not do art? Cuz I 1417 00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:34,960 I've heard this a lot that some people 1418 00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:37,840 are encouraged away from the arts 1419 00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:40,080 to go to a safe job like being a doctor 1420 00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:42,000 or being a thing. I mean, when you look, 1421 00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:44,160 do you think that was the right choice 1422 00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:46,480 or do you know friends and family who 1423 00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:47,360 have 1424 00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:49,880 you know, made a living out of 1425 00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:51,480 uh art? 1426 00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:53,600 My sister's made a living out of art. 1427 00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:55,880 She's she's um done very well. She's 1428 00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:58,320 actually a professor of art up at uh 1429 00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:01,120 Oh, wow. in in your your in a college. 1430 00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:03,920 Yeah, it's um 1431 00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:04,840 I don't know if that was the right 1432 00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:06,360 decision or not. I mean, the the the 1433 00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:08,480 professor that I I trusted the professor 1434 00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:10,280 who who told me that and I felt that 1435 00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:12,520 that was the right decision at the time. 1436 00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:14,320 I you know, obviously if I had if I had 1437 00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:15,880 made a different decision everything 1438 00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:16,840 would you know, wouldn't have the same 1439 00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:19,600 family and wouldn't be you know, So it's 1440 00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:20,960 right from that perspective that what I 1441 00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:22,800 did. 1442 00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:24,840 But yeah, I I don't know. It's it's 1443 00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:27,680 really hard to hard back in time and 1444 00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:29,800 Mhm. and say You know, you contributed a 1445 00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:31,040 lot. You've done a huge amount of 1446 00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:32,960 things. Is there anything that you still 1447 00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:35,000 feel is unfinished? Is there Is there 1448 00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:37,000 anything that you like I really I have 1449 00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:38,840 certain things I really would like to go 1450 00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:42,640 and do or achieve that I haven't yet 1451 00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:44,000 done? 1452 00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:46,480 No, I don't think so. I mean, 1453 00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:50,080 when I was younger, I would be um 1454 00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:51,640 uh of course there's always the dream to 1455 00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:55,360 become uh another uh Brown Van Lear or 1456 00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:56,760 you know 1457 00:49:56,760 --> 00:49:58,040 some 1458 00:49:58,040 --> 00:49:58,600 surname 1459 00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:00,560 Einstein or something. 1460 00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:02,640 Yeah. You know, but that that eventually 1461 00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:04,440 you say, "Okay, this this is what I'm 1462 00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:05,680 good at. I 1463 00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:08,040 I'm well organized. I can figure out how 1464 00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:11,520 to do do these certain things and and 1465 00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:12,680 you know, I I 1466 00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:14,520 I'll just enjoy what I'm able to do as 1467 00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:17,120 best I can do it, but 1468 00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:18,520 I'm not going to solve turbulence 1469 00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:21,080 modelling. 1470 00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:22,400 That was also a dream, too, at one 1471 00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:24,480 point. Like, "Oh, this model is going to 1472 00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:26,240 Everyone's going to use it. It'll be the 1473 00:50:26,240 --> 00:50:28,720 best thing to come along." But now, it's 1474 00:50:28,720 --> 00:50:30,120 it's um 1475 00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:33,200 So, just just 1476 00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:35,440 bow out gracefully at some point, say, 1477 00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:38,560 "Oh, well, this this is 1478 00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:40,360 Yeah, no, it's it's it's true, isn't it? 1479 00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:42,280 It's like almost 1480 00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:44,960 That's why I enjoy speaking to people 1481 00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:46,040 like 1482 00:50:46,040 --> 00:50:47,880 Florian or Philippe who 1483 00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:50,840 who are the rare individuals that you 1484 00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:52,600 could say have 1485 00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:55,960 done that thing of having a surname 1486 00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:58,160 after a model, but I guess the sad 1487 00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:00,280 reality is that for most people that is 1488 00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:01,920 never the case. And I I remember the 1489 00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:03,960 same thing during my PhD thing, "Oh, 1490 00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:06,040 yeah, well, if I sort of move this 1491 00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:07,920 equation around, if I can fit this line, 1492 00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:09,480 maybe this could be a new model." And 1493 00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:10,320 you know, 1494 00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:12,040 this could this could be it, but it's 1495 00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:13,560 actually much harder than you realize, 1496 00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:14,480 isn't it, 1497 00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:14,720 to do it? 1498 00:51:14,720 --> 00:51:16,920 Oh, yeah. Yeah, definitely. 1499 00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:18,920 And you know, it's respect to those 1500 00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:20,920 people, but I don't think whilst it's 1501 00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:22,960 amazing what they've done, I think 1502 00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:26,920 actually what you've done, which not to 1503 00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:28,720 uh put what you've done just in one 1504 00:51:28,720 --> 00:51:30,400 circle, but I think 1505 00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:31,840 where I genuinely think you've done a 1506 00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:32,960 lot of 1507 00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:35,320 help to the community is the curation of 1508 00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:36,480 knowledge. 1509 00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:38,080 You know, you can have the best models 1510 00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:39,800 in the world. You can do the best 1511 00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:41,280 research, 1512 00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:42,920 but I don't know if you've consciously 1513 00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:45,320 focused on this or not, 1514 00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:46,880 but you've seemed to have done a lot 1515 00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:49,240 about documenting it. 1516 00:51:49,240 --> 00:51:50,200 You know, 1517 00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:51,720 like when I look at what you've done 1518 00:51:51,720 --> 00:51:53,080 with the turbulence modelling website, 1519 00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:55,760 with the high-lift, with CGNS, with the 1520 00:51:55,760 --> 00:51:59,480 codes, like you seem to be very good at 1521 00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:02,480 documenting and curating that knowledge 1522 00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:04,560 and almost that public dissemination 1523 00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:06,880 knowledge. Is that a conscious 1524 00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:09,560 thing you do or you just sort of slipped 1525 00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:11,840 in to the to the 1526 00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:13,320 Probably probably just slipped slipped 1527 00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:15,440 in. Yeah. I mean, I saw the need for it 1528 00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:17,960 maybe and just did it because it it 1529 00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:19,760 seemed like the right thing to do. But, 1530 00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:22,240 I I I think kudos to you for that cuz 1531 00:52:22,240 --> 00:52:25,200 genuinely, if I look at all these 1532 00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:27,240 new methods, these new startups, new 1533 00:52:27,240 --> 00:52:30,280 methods, they almost all are showing 1534 00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:31,600 that they've validated their thing 1535 00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:34,080 against some basic turbulence modelling 1536 00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:35,640 website case. 1537 00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:38,560 They've almost all taken some high-lift 1538 00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:40,320 case and running it. And I know it's a 1539 00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:43,080 team effort, but a lot of that has been 1540 00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:45,440 basically put on a website, curated, 1541 00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:46,960 organized 1542 00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:49,280 by you and a few others. So, I would 1543 00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:52,120 argue whilst your surname may not be on 1544 00:52:52,120 --> 00:52:53,920 a particular turbulence model, I think 1545 00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:55,280 you've still actually had AI think you 1546 00:52:55,280 --> 00:52:58,280 can have a tap on the back for 1547 00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:00,120 for contributing. That's That's nice of 1548 00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:02,000 you to say that. 1549 00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:03,680 And I I think others would would agree 1550 00:53:03,680 --> 00:53:06,680 with me, too. So, I Yeah, I really um I 1551 00:53:06,680 --> 00:53:09,480 really appreciate you speaking and um I 1552 00:53:09,480 --> 00:53:10,880 have certainly learned something new. I 1553 00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:14,040 had no idea about the arc connection. I 1554 00:53:14,040 --> 00:53:16,560 didn't know that maybe you could have 1555 00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:20,200 been a spy. That's 1556 00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:21,240 Never too late. 1557 00:53:21,240 --> 00:53:24,080 Not a good one, though. 1558 00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:27,840 Um but, yeah, and uh I hope we can um 1559 00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:30,040 uh have a good chance to catch up at the 1560 00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:31,920 uh at the high-lift workshop. 1561 00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:32,360 Coming up. 1562 00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:34,120 a nice way to sort of I don't know about 1563 00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:36,480 you, but I'm after that, I feel like I 1564 00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:38,480 need to have a break. I think August 1565 00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:39,960 will be a a good time for Yeah, this 1566 00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:43,200 next month is not going to be fun for 1567 00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:43,480 Yeah. 1568 00:53:43,480 --> 00:53:45,160 collecting everything and 1569 00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:46,160 getting it ready. 1570 00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:47,160 Yeah. 1571 00:53:47,160 --> 00:53:48,280 Brilliant. Thanks Chris. Really 1572 00:53:48,280 --> 00:53:50,080 appreciate it. 1573 00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:51,120 Sure Neil. 1574 00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:52,120 Cheers. 1575 00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:54,400 Cheers. 1576 00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:19,120 Yeah.