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Hi and welcome to the Neil Ashton podcast.

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In each episode,

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we explained some of the fascinating ways that science and engineering

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are changing the world around us.

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We talk to leading engineers from elite level sports like cycling and Formula One

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to some of the world's top academics to understand how fluid dynamics,

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machine learning and supercomputing

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are bringing in a new era of discovery.

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We also hear some of their life stories, their career advice

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and lessons they've learned on the way that I hope will be helpful to you too.

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So sit back and enjoy this episode.

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Hi and welcome back to the Neil Ashton podcast.

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We're in season two.

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Wow. I'm, I'm pleased that

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we managed to get through a whole season, I think 14 episodes.

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Uh I'm really appreciative of the positive feedback. And so I wanted to try and do

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an even better job for, for season two.

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And uh what's a better way than starting a new season with

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somebody who I think is probably at the moment one of the most

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influential, powerful, important figures within Formula One.

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And that is Nikolas Tombazis

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and he is the single-seater director for the FIA

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essentially what that means is he is the person

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who is responsible for setting

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the rules of the sport and, and works with his colleagues to,

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to, you know, set the discipline, the rules of the,

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the car, speaks with the teams, changes, listens to feedback.

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He's the one who works closely with Formula

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One Management uh and all of the partners.

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But he is the one who is the,

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the figurehead to deal with the team

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principals to deal with the technical directors.

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And along with his team

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advance

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the technical and sporting regulations

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of Formula One.

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He in this discussion though I really wanted to

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or for you to learn more about him because I think he has a, a

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fascinating

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history. He's one of these people who

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was one of the first

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PhD educated uh people with a real sort of scientific background

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who went into Formula One starting in the, in the early nineties.

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Uh It's obviously very common now for that to happen.

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But back then it, it wasn't so much

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and he really has gone through, you know,

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the ticking the box of all the top positions in the teams.

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He was at Benetton,

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he was at Ferrari, he was at McLaren,

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he's won multiple world championships

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um

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and is someone who really has probably one of

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the best understandings of the sport from a technical side

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and obviously now from a regulatory side.

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So we cover lots of areas. He he's somebody who I, I really like his personality.

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We worked together a little bit.

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Um,

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when I was doing some stuff with Formula One for the new rules, you know,

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about four years ago.

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And at a time he was a consultant there

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before he took over at the FIA

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and he was one of these people I, I had on my list,

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uh, to speak to,

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um, before we, uh, you know, when I was starting to do this podcast.

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So I was really pleased and I, I think

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if you're a fan of Formula One or not, I hope you'll appreciate the, the,

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the topic and the discussions.

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Um We go through in hearing about his fascinating uh life journey. So

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yeah, sit back and please enjoy this episode with Nikolas Tombazis.

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You went to Cambridge

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University.

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But when did you know that you were going

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to do engineering versus let's say physics or maths,

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you know, specifically what made you want to go into an engineering course?

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Um

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Well, I guess I was very um

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interested in mathematics and physics,

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which I liked, really, at school.

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Um And uh I also always had

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a

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bit of a design background because uh my father was an architect

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and um

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so

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there was always some form of drawing going on at home.

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Um

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And I was extremely passionate about Formula One.

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Uh

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So, and my aspiration was to be designing Formula One cars as a kid.

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Um

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and

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all of those factors I think conspired to make me want to go and do engineering.

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I was

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also quite, um

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I guess, uh maybe a bit arrogant as a youth,

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maybe I still am

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and,

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and therefore

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I didn't want to

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do what my dad did. Um

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I felt it would be to

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too

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easy in some ways, even though I have full respect for the profession,

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architecture.

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And I find it fascinating. I

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had too many people.

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I guess when I was a kid asking me, are you going to be an architect when you grow up?

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And that probably uh created the opposite effect in my head

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as

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a

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youth.

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It's kind of amazing, isn't it?

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How those reverse psychology or some people you see,

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you never know if you say to someone don't do that,

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sometimes it can drive them the other

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um

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the other way. So, oh, so you're always into, were you one of these people then

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as a teenager that was,

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had that laser focus for Formula One, was watching the races, was

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really passionate about it.

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Yeah, I guess I got hooked up to Formula One when I was about

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10 years old.

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That's when I watched my first races.

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Uh And uh when I was then uh well, in Greece where I come from there was no,

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there was not always TV, coverage, there was only a few races a year

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but I was uh I was always waiting for the newspaper or the,

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the evening news to see who had won a race and following and so on. And, and,

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and back then, of course,

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there was a lot of talk about the ground effect

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because the Lotus 79 was um

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dominating in, in 1978.

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And then in 1979

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it was all very much an aerodynamic war

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between competitors. And, um

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and there was a lot of drawings in magazines with diffusers and

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arrows indicating where the air would

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move and so on.

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And uh all of that

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uh intrigued me very much. And uh that's exactly,

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that's what, what

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really attracted me.

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I used to have. Um

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uh Well, I still have that, that my best friend from school in those days and,

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and he was also extremely passionate. He didn't become an engineer in Formula One.

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Uh but we used to have um to draw our own Formula One cars and

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try to compare them and say why mine is better than his or his better than mine.

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So we used to draw cars a lot back then.

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Yeah, that's uh

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I guess you, you would be the equivalent now

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of those people who can draw and have you seen them online where they draw

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in

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CAD,

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an almost exact Formula One car.

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They're not Formula One designers, but they just have incredible CAD skills

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that they draw these things, I guess. Maybe

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clearly. No CAD.

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Yeah, indeed.

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Not even a computer.

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Now, we just draw

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um, um, side view,

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plan view and the cross section of the diffuser and a few things like that.

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And, uh, but yeah, I guess if CAD had been available then probably

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would have loved to.

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Yeah.

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What was Cambridge like there was that quite a

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culture shock going to? I can imagine, uh

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what feels like being in the 16th century? Was that something you

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enjoyed that you were sort of

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excited about?

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Very excited to go there. And, um, and I have to say,

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uh, I definitely enjoyed it. Um, it was probably the most,

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um,

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careless period of my life in many ways. Uh,

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um, it's,

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I was doing something I enjoyed.

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I didn't have to do

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subjects that I did not enjoy. Like at school, there were some

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subjects I did not enjoy that I had to do being at school. Whereas at Cambridge, you know,

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just in engineering which almost

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everything I enjoyed.

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Um,

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it

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was my first period away from home and parties and,

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and, uh, living with other

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young people, uh, you know, in

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close proximity.

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Yeah, it was quite reasonably hard work but I wouldn't,

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compared to other stuff I've had to do in my life. It was probably

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with hindsight.

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Yeah, it was definitely the easiest period

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of my life.

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I know. I always think there,

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I

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don't know if you ever look back and

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well,

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not regret is the wrong word, but you do fully appreciate university.

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I think it's that sweet spot because you're right at school,

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you have no freedom really. You're kind of told what to do. You have to do the things

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you're in,

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you're in a work scenario when you're in your

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early twenties and you're kind of told what to do

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normally, especially nowadays, university, I guess,

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is that sweet spot where you have enough freedom?

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Usually they kind of say, well, if you don't want to go to lecture,

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well, fine, whatever.

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It's, yeah, it is a freeing period, isn't it?

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It is. Yes. And, um,

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and again, you're 18, you're away from home. You

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don't have to ask permission to, to do almost anything

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and you're doing stuff you enjoy.

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Um,

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I must say when I was there, I felt

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quite shocked by

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some of the

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professors who,

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you know,

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sometimes you get to speak with a professor who

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was maybe 70 years old or something like that.

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And you'd ask him where he'd been to college and he'd say, well,

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I've been to Cambridge and I did my PhD at Cambridge and then I became a fellow and then

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I,

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and so there are these guys who have lived there for

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like,

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50 years

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and, um,

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that, that one I must say did not attract me. I am I

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happy. I haven't stayed there for 50 years.

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Um, but, uh, I can see why some people have done that as well.

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Yeah. Well, yeah, that's true. That's sort of uh, I've met

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a few professors

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who don't drive,

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um, because they've always lived in college accommodation

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and probably similar to you. It's like this and they just cycle around all the time.

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It's almost like watching an Inspector Morse

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or one of these, uh, programs, you know,

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live in a bubble, don't they? And some

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have never

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moved away from that bubble. Um,

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I'd say obviously life has its trials and tribulations and, um,

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and

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maybe, maybe they've understood things much better than we have.

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Yeah, I was gonna say like it's not such a bad lifestyle.

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Um

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But you,

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one thing that intrigued me is

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especially when you did it.

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Um A

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lot of people who are really into engineering or,

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or even fast forward to now really are desperate to

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get into Formula One the first chance they have,

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they'll try and go.

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You went on to a PhD. I, I'm just wondering what drove your decision?

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Was it a quest just for more knowledge? Was it

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a strategic thing of doing it?

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What, what, what was the reason that you then went to go down the PhD um route?

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Well, um well, first of all, I will say conscious that

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we're talking about uh whatever now, um sort of

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35 years ago or whatever

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that

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I

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fully acknowledge that things may have changed since then.

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And what, what decision back in the eighties or nineties isn't?

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I do not imply that

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00:12:53,460 --> 00:12:54,140
and

264
00:12:54,419 --> 00:12:55,280
I,

265
00:12:56,429 --> 00:12:58,700
I didn't feel at the time

266
00:12:59,390 --> 00:13:00,010
that

267
00:13:00,969 --> 00:13:02,260
just a three year

268
00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:03,989
degree was

269
00:13:04,239 --> 00:13:06,349
enough in some ways,

270
00:13:07,690 --> 00:13:09,080
in many other countries,

271
00:13:09,770 --> 00:13:10,880
um,

272
00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:14,580
you know, three year degree would be associated with.

273
00:13:14,590 --> 00:13:16,520
Uh, I don't know, lesser studies of some sort.

274
00:13:17,590 --> 00:13:20,549
And then, so I had one was that in my mind.

275
00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:25,000
So I guess I always had in mind that I was going to do some form of postgraduate study.

276
00:13:26,099 --> 00:13:27,099
Um,

277
00:13:27,349 --> 00:13:28,239
I

278
00:13:29,979 --> 00:13:31,419
had heard that

279
00:13:32,219 --> 00:13:35,400
uh Imperial College where I went for my PhD had

280
00:13:36,229 --> 00:13:37,020
um

281
00:13:37,359 --> 00:13:39,700
sort of quite a few people had gone

282
00:13:39,940 --> 00:13:42,260
into Formula One from there back then

283
00:13:43,010 --> 00:13:46,770
and I felt that it was going to be putting me in a good position.

284
00:13:47,270 --> 00:13:51,760
I also felt that maybe the amount of aerodynamics I had done at Cambridge was not

285
00:13:52,659 --> 00:13:53,400
that much.

286
00:13:53,409 --> 00:13:55,859
I mean, I had taken all the aerodynamic options I could,

287
00:13:55,869 --> 00:13:57,909
but I felt I could do a bit more.

288
00:13:58,940 --> 00:14:05,169
Um So it was pretty, I, I didn't, I didn't actually even try to go from Cambridge into

289
00:14:05,919 --> 00:14:09,489
the Formula One team back then. I, I only started

290
00:14:09,619 --> 00:14:12,849
looking for a job in Formula One during my PhD

291
00:14:13,419 --> 00:14:15,190
during the latter part of my PhD,

292
00:14:15,469 --> 00:14:15,750
more accurately.

293
00:14:16,599 --> 00:14:20,940
And what was the focus of your, your PhD in the end? What, what was the main

294
00:14:21,690 --> 00:14:24,229
it was uh experimental aerodynamics?

295
00:14:24,239 --> 00:14:28,390
So I was working in a wind tunnel and I was studying

296
00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:31,349
uh the wakes of bluff bodies

297
00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:37,190
and the vortex shedding and how the various 3D effects that

298
00:14:37,869 --> 00:14:38,450
occur

299
00:14:38,950 --> 00:14:40,919
naturally. And, um,

300
00:14:41,679 --> 00:14:42,729
and, uh,

301
00:14:43,919 --> 00:14:45,260
I guess what

302
00:14:46,299 --> 00:14:48,950
I got from the PhD was not the,

303
00:14:50,059 --> 00:14:52,020
actual knowledge of vortex

304
00:14:52,309 --> 00:14:53,400
shedding from bluff

305
00:14:53,679 --> 00:14:54,010
bodies and

306
00:14:54,159 --> 00:14:54,400
that

307
00:14:55,770 --> 00:14:57,309
honestly you can read it up.

308
00:14:58,109 --> 00:14:58,890
Um,

309
00:14:59,049 --> 00:14:59,830
and

310
00:15:01,119 --> 00:15:07,049
ok, I guess what I got from it was that I had to do a big project which was standalone.

311
00:15:08,479 --> 00:15:09,299
It was,

312
00:15:09,780 --> 00:15:13,099
I had to deal with a lot of issues whether it was

313
00:15:13,919 --> 00:15:18,820
instrumentation or writing software back then to analyze my data

314
00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:20,409
or

315
00:15:21,239 --> 00:15:22,780
designing my

316
00:15:23,119 --> 00:15:27,099
models or instruments that I would put in the wind tunnel, sorting out

317
00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:28,859
basically everything

318
00:15:30,169 --> 00:15:31,369
and having to,

319
00:15:31,659 --> 00:15:32,789
to then think a

320
00:15:33,330 --> 00:15:34,179
bit like

321
00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:35,929
or

322
00:15:36,229 --> 00:15:41,150
try to provide some original theory of some of trying to explain what you're seeing

323
00:15:41,159 --> 00:15:44,070
and understand what it is you need to do in order to investigate it.

324
00:15:44,659 --> 00:15:49,419
So for me, it was more the thinking process

325
00:15:49,719 --> 00:15:50,580
or learning

326
00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:53,150
the thinking process more than the actual

327
00:15:53,690 --> 00:15:57,859
specific topic I was studying that I felt was

328
00:15:58,190 --> 00:15:59,359
neither here nor there.

329
00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:01,640
No, I, I um

330
00:16:02,510 --> 00:16:05,289
I totally agree with you. I felt,

331
00:16:06,090 --> 00:16:10,030
I don't think your conclusion is entirely wrong about the three year thing.

332
00:16:10,039 --> 00:16:11,750
I, I know when I speak to a lot of my

333
00:16:12,229 --> 00:16:14,549
sort of European colleagues that,

334
00:16:15,460 --> 00:16:17,590
you know, the four or five year standard

335
00:16:17,690 --> 00:16:19,080
degree or master's

336
00:16:19,369 --> 00:16:21,340
or, or rather let's put it around the other way,

337
00:16:21,609 --> 00:16:24,000
people who do end up going into a PhD

338
00:16:24,489 --> 00:16:27,059
from a UK background sometimes struggle a little

339
00:16:27,070 --> 00:16:29,159
bit in the first year because they hadn't had

340
00:16:29,340 --> 00:16:31,400
the same amount of knowledge

341
00:16:31,619 --> 00:16:33,659
as people who have done longer degrees.

342
00:16:33,830 --> 00:16:34,599
Um,

343
00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:38,919
but the, the other way works as well that if you were to leave after just three years,

344
00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:39,419
uh,

345
00:16:39,479 --> 00:16:41,890
you wouldn't have necessarily had the same length of

346
00:16:41,900 --> 00:16:44,549
study time and individual projects and things like that.

347
00:16:44,559 --> 00:16:44,820
So,

348
00:16:44,929 --> 00:16:45,820
I think that's still,

349
00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:49,989
um, it holds true today, at least in my opinion.

350
00:16:50,109 --> 00:16:51,059
Um And

351
00:16:51,349 --> 00:16:54,739
you were probably, would you not say one of the

352
00:16:55,919 --> 00:17:01,679
few—there were far fewer people, I would say having a PhD going into Formula One

353
00:17:02,070 --> 00:17:03,590
in the early nineties compared to.

354
00:17:03,599 --> 00:17:05,979
Now, was that the case when you went to Benetton,

355
00:17:06,060 --> 00:17:07,979
were you one of the few people who had

356
00:17:07,989 --> 00:17:10,390
done a PhD or was it actually already quite common

357
00:17:11,650 --> 00:17:11,699
uh in

358
00:17:11,979 --> 00:17:12,368
Benetton?

359
00:17:13,089 --> 00:17:13,868
I think

360
00:17:14,449 --> 00:17:16,430
there were very few. Maybe it was

361
00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:19,750
me and one other guy in, I remember, structural

362
00:17:19,858 --> 00:17:20,750
mechanics, I think,

363
00:17:21,118 --> 00:17:23,030
I don't think there was anybody else there.

364
00:17:23,489 --> 00:17:25,858
And back then, of course, there was a lot more

365
00:17:26,329 --> 00:17:30,030
um people who'd grown through the ranks and uh

366
00:17:30,989 --> 00:17:33,140
been mechanics in their youth or,

367
00:17:33,150 --> 00:17:36,839
or whatever and uh as well as quite a few engineers, of course,

368
00:17:37,390 --> 00:17:39,250
um in aerodynamics

369
00:17:39,430 --> 00:17:40,369
back then.

370
00:17:40,770 --> 00:17:45,650
Obviously, aerodynamics in the, let's say in the eighties or in the,

371
00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:49,459
or even the late seventies during the Colin Chapman, whatever

372
00:17:49,569 --> 00:17:51,209
the period I described as a kid

373
00:17:52,060 --> 00:17:52,310
aerodynamics

374
00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:53,880
was evolving

375
00:17:54,209 --> 00:17:56,719
very much um empirically

376
00:17:58,510 --> 00:17:59,089
and

377
00:17:59,709 --> 00:17:59,719
I

378
00:18:00,069 --> 00:18:03,130
don't think people who did it really had that much

379
00:18:03,589 --> 00:18:05,219
knowledge about aerodynamics.

380
00:18:05,229 --> 00:18:08,439
So there were people who were quite successful aerodynamicists

381
00:18:09,170 --> 00:18:10,000
back then

382
00:18:10,390 --> 00:18:14,739
who actually had very little formal knowledge about aerodynamics.

383
00:18:15,150 --> 00:18:18,750
I think when I arrived in the scene in the nineties,

384
00:18:18,900 --> 00:18:19,989
it had become,

385
00:18:20,479 --> 00:18:22,229
it was beginning to be more

386
00:18:22,849 --> 00:18:23,349
um

387
00:18:25,500 --> 00:18:28,699
accepted that people needed to,

388
00:18:28,709 --> 00:18:31,739
to actually have understood aerodynamics a bit better.

389
00:18:32,430 --> 00:18:34,260
And certainly there was,

390
00:18:34,270 --> 00:18:36,800
there were a few other people also from Imperial

391
00:18:36,810 --> 00:18:39,420
College who had gone into Formula One back then.

392
00:18:39,949 --> 00:18:41,859
The big difference to now, of course is that

393
00:18:42,770 --> 00:18:46,150
um when I arrived at Benetton, I was the second

394
00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:47,180
aerodynamicist.

395
00:18:48,449 --> 00:18:49,050
Um uh

396
00:18:49,670 --> 00:18:55,060
So basically, my boss was head of aerodynamics and me as junior aerodynamicist

397
00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:57,219
and um

398
00:18:57,589 --> 00:18:58,819
most teams had

399
00:18:59,300 --> 00:19:02,219
two or three, or maybe four aerodynamicists in the bigger teams.

400
00:19:02,900 --> 00:19:04,449
And uh

401
00:19:06,349 --> 00:19:11,069
and maybe the small teams had one aerodynamicist.

402
00:19:11,489 --> 00:19:13,420
and as a consequence,

403
00:19:13,780 --> 00:19:17,569
the opportunities to enter Formula One were much fewer back then.

404
00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:18,689
I felt

405
00:19:19,469 --> 00:19:21,489
it was a double edged sword because

406
00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:22,410
um

407
00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:27,199
nowadays, I think people enter, I think it's probably a bit easier to enter now.

408
00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:27,930
A

409
00:19:28,150 --> 00:19:30,770
lot of competition, quite hard needs hard work,

410
00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:32,469
but

411
00:19:33,500 --> 00:19:37,680
their career progression afterwards is a bit slower because a lot slower,

412
00:19:38,180 --> 00:19:40,390
it's unthinkable for somebody to be,

413
00:19:40,910 --> 00:19:44,800
I don't know, chief aerodynamicist. At 26 I was chief aerodynamicist.

414
00:19:45,660 --> 00:19:45,680
I

415
00:19:45,829 --> 00:19:46,000
was going,

416
00:19:46,859 --> 00:19:47,359
I mean,

417
00:19:47,650 --> 00:19:50,040
nowadays, I think if they're lucky

418
00:19:51,010 --> 00:19:52,920
and very capable, they will be

419
00:19:53,150 --> 00:19:58,040
maybe that sort of position at 35 or something like that.

420
00:19:58,760 --> 00:19:59,489
Um

421
00:19:59,770 --> 00:20:03,229
So I think it was arguably more difficult to enter back then.

422
00:20:04,949 --> 00:20:05,719
But

423
00:20:06,339 --> 00:20:11,119
once you entered, I think if you had some sort of level of competence, I guess

424
00:20:11,439 --> 00:20:13,859
your progression was a bit more rapid.

425
00:20:14,349 --> 00:20:15,439
And I remember back then,

426
00:20:15,449 --> 00:20:19,849
even I had this feeling for the generation of engineers who were

427
00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:23,530
in Formula One since the seventies, they were all

428
00:20:23,890 --> 00:20:27,329
sort of chief designers, technical directors, you know, they,

429
00:20:27,339 --> 00:20:30,189
they had designed everything from nose to tail

430
00:20:30,500 --> 00:20:31,729
and they had a uh

431
00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:34,680
I felt that for many years there was

432
00:20:34,839 --> 00:20:34,849
a

433
00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:36,989
quite a gap in

434
00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:39,439
Formula One because there were these

435
00:20:40,630 --> 00:20:42,790
divine heroes in my perception

436
00:20:43,530 --> 00:20:44,569
in the seventies

437
00:20:45,079 --> 00:20:47,010
who knew how to do the whole car

438
00:20:47,660 --> 00:20:51,130
and all the young people like me or other people arriving,

439
00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:52,339
um

440
00:20:52,579 --> 00:20:54,900
didn't have exposure to the whole car and

441
00:20:55,219 --> 00:20:55,439
it

442
00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:58,770
was difficult to see how they're going to expand one day and so on

443
00:20:59,020 --> 00:21:01,410
Clearly. I guess biology

444
00:21:02,290 --> 00:21:03,089
contributed to that.

445
00:21:04,489 --> 00:21:05,510
They retired or went out of

446
00:21:05,630 --> 00:21:07,569
work, and then you had to step in.

447
00:21:09,770 --> 00:21:11,520
Yeah. I mean, that is—

448
00:21:11,650 --> 00:21:15,030
so you went from Imperial, so you went to Benetton

449
00:21:15,790 --> 00:21:16,630
was Benetton.

450
00:21:17,150 --> 00:21:20,430
Where was it? Was it in Enstone by that time?

451
00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:20,900
Um

452
00:21:22,099 --> 00:21:27,359
Yes, I think uh well, when I started working, which was end of 92. They had moved to

453
00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:29,260
literally

454
00:21:29,380 --> 00:21:30,180
probably a

455
00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:30,989
month

456
00:21:31,530 --> 00:21:32,630
or something like that.

457
00:21:32,810 --> 00:21:33,660
It was very new.

458
00:21:34,329 --> 00:21:38,790
And uh and yeah, I, I my interview to

459
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:42,520
be accepted at Benetton was done at a previous factory.

460
00:21:42,530 --> 00:21:44,930
And then when I started working, it was a new one.

461
00:21:45,849 --> 00:21:47,989
What was it like at a personal level? Because,

462
00:21:48,790 --> 00:21:50,890
um, you were in Cambridge

463
00:21:51,449 --> 00:21:53,089
then, I guess in London

464
00:21:53,239 --> 00:21:56,810
and then you were coming out. Did, did you have a bit of a shock moving to this

465
00:21:57,270 --> 00:22:01,300
Oxfordshire countryside Cotswolds from the sort of big city of,

466
00:22:01,530 --> 00:22:03,270
of London? Was that sort of

467
00:22:03,459 --> 00:22:03,469
a

468
00:22:05,859 --> 00:22:06,310
move

469
00:22:06,550 --> 00:22:07,069
um,

470
00:22:07,750 --> 00:22:11,400
from a personal side, uh I guess a bit, but I,

471
00:22:13,050 --> 00:22:16,569
I was obviously a lot younger than I am now and I had

472
00:22:16,869 --> 00:22:18,109
quite a lot of stamina

473
00:22:18,250 --> 00:22:20,170
and I,

474
00:22:20,579 --> 00:22:23,869
all my social life, I remained in London.

475
00:22:26,380 --> 00:22:27,760
Uh I found a house

476
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:31,130
uh in a place called Wheatley, which is

477
00:22:31,420 --> 00:22:32,319
uh quite

478
00:22:32,459 --> 00:22:36,109
close to Oxford, and quite close to the M40. So I could

479
00:22:36,849 --> 00:22:37,750
easily

480
00:22:37,959 --> 00:22:40,239
get into London within about 50 minutes.

481
00:22:40,709 --> 00:22:42,819
There was fewer speed cameras back then.

482
00:22:43,079 --> 00:22:43,790
Um

483
00:22:43,959 --> 00:22:47,229
And uh I was about 20 minutes from work

484
00:22:47,579 --> 00:22:51,510
and I would go to London almost every weekend.

485
00:22:53,010 --> 00:22:55,180
Usually I'd probably go into London

486
00:22:55,589 --> 00:22:59,910
probably once midweek as well to meet with friends and stuff like that.

487
00:23:00,719 --> 00:23:02,290
And of course, we had the wind tunnel,

488
00:23:02,300 --> 00:23:04,640
we were using a wind tunnel at Farnborough back then,

489
00:23:04,650 --> 00:23:06,550
which was a little bit closer to London.

490
00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:07,400
Still. So,

491
00:23:07,849 --> 00:23:08,579
so,

492
00:23:09,229 --> 00:23:09,989
so,

493
00:23:10,369 --> 00:23:14,530
yeah, my, my, I never had any real social life in Oxford or,

494
00:23:14,900 --> 00:23:17,260
or in that area. All my life was in London,

495
00:23:17,959 --> 00:23:20,400
which is, I always find it a little bit

496
00:23:21,130 --> 00:23:24,930
unusual and I know there's some historical reasons for it that these

497
00:23:25,170 --> 00:23:28,719
Formula One teams, other than a couple of exceptions are

498
00:23:28,979 --> 00:23:32,160
all within this 40–50-mile radius of each other.

499
00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:34,040
Do you find that?

500
00:23:34,050 --> 00:23:36,609
Uh And then when I speak to some younger people, they hate it because they're like,

501
00:23:36,619 --> 00:23:38,339
oh God, I'm moving out to the countryside.

502
00:23:38,349 --> 00:23:38,869
There's no,

503
00:23:39,229 --> 00:23:41,270
you know, there's just these old pubs around,

504
00:23:41,589 --> 00:23:46,109
hence why you went to London and I think others sometimes want to be close to a city.

505
00:23:46,489 --> 00:23:47,109
Um

506
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:51,180
It does create a weird dynamic though, doesn't it, it all being

507
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:52,910
in just this one

508
00:23:53,780 --> 00:23:55,209
part of the world, do you not think?

509
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:56,369
Yeah, I mean, it's

510
00:23:56,510 --> 00:23:59,760
understandable technically why this is the case because

511
00:23:59,869 --> 00:24:00,430
the,

512
00:24:00,729 --> 00:24:02,729
um these teams

513
00:24:03,569 --> 00:24:04,150
um

514
00:24:06,109 --> 00:24:08,410
indirectly and unwillingly

515
00:24:08,839 --> 00:24:11,030
sort of collaborate with each other to some degree

516
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:14,250
nicking each other's personnel.

517
00:24:14,959 --> 00:24:17,189
That's exactly what I was alluding to that,

518
00:24:17,540 --> 00:24:21,449
I guess as you can just jump to another team and still stay living in the same place

519
00:24:21,589 --> 00:24:24,069
when I found my house, I chose it

520
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:27,209
strategically. I bought a small flat back then

521
00:24:27,319 --> 00:24:29,829
when I got my job after a few months.

522
00:24:30,420 --> 00:24:31,989
But I thought, well,

523
00:24:32,380 --> 00:24:35,459
it is close to Oxford. Um

524
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:38,150
If you look at where the teams are Benetton and,

525
00:24:38,550 --> 00:24:42,689
uh, the various other Formula One teams, Williams was a bit south of Oxford back then

526
00:24:43,010 --> 00:24:47,569
and so on. So I felt that I was covering a reasonably good circle.

527
00:24:47,989 --> 00:24:51,689
Of course, then I moved to Italy afterwards,

528
00:24:55,859 --> 00:24:57,199
so I had to sell my house.

529
00:24:57,640 --> 00:24:59,239
But, um,

530
00:25:00,209 --> 00:25:03,869
but yeah, initially I thought, yeah, it's quite a strategic choice.

531
00:25:04,449 --> 00:25:05,920
But in the end

532
00:25:06,930 --> 00:25:08,300
life came about differently

533
00:25:09,089 --> 00:25:10,699
to the point that I, um,

534
00:25:11,469 --> 00:25:15,560
if I go to a pub in Woodstock or, or somewhere, it's,

535
00:25:15,569 --> 00:25:18,400
I'm always surprised how often you'll see somebody

536
00:25:18,410 --> 00:25:20,380
and I think it's probably best not to,

537
00:25:20,780 --> 00:25:22,890
it'd be hard to have a secret meeting, you know,

538
00:25:22,900 --> 00:25:25,560
when people are deciding to move teams because you'd have to pick

539
00:25:25,569 --> 00:25:28,229
a pub that no one else is going to go into.

540
00:25:28,239 --> 00:25:28,920
I'm sure

541
00:25:29,189 --> 00:25:33,280
there's been some conversations, uh, overheard for sure. Um,

542
00:25:34,130 --> 00:25:37,959
so you were, I mean, that was incredible. You joined in 92

543
00:25:38,489 --> 00:25:38,949
and then,

544
00:25:39,329 --> 00:25:41,689
and then by 94 you were essentially

545
00:25:41,949 --> 00:25:44,900
the head of aerodynamics or the chief aerodynamicist

546
00:25:46,069 --> 00:25:49,810
Yeah, the latter part of '94, so two years after I joined, I guess I was

547
00:25:50,099 --> 00:25:50,260
the chief aerodynamicist.

548
00:25:52,150 --> 00:25:54,089
actually. That's almost unbelievable.

549
00:25:54,239 --> 00:25:56,410
You know, now people

550
00:25:56,839 --> 00:26:01,609
never become head of aero—they're 15 years in and still trying.

551
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:03,130
How was that?

552
00:26:03,439 --> 00:26:06,359
Were you always used to

553
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:08,599
leadership positions? I know it sounds a strange way.

554
00:26:08,609 --> 00:26:11,060
Were you comfortable in that sort of

555
00:26:11,390 --> 00:26:12,609
responsibility?

556
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,520
Yeah, I don't, I don't think, I mean, I, I'm not

557
00:26:19,069 --> 00:26:20,010
saying

558
00:26:21,229 --> 00:26:26,619
I'm necessarily, I'm good or not good at leadership positions, but I didn't have

559
00:26:26,790 --> 00:26:26,800
a,

560
00:26:27,489 --> 00:26:28,640
um,

561
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:32,520
I mean, I enjoyed what I was doing very much. I was a very hard worker.

562
00:26:33,319 --> 00:26:34,319
Um,

563
00:26:34,459 --> 00:26:37,520
it was a passion for me as well as a profession

564
00:26:38,510 --> 00:26:39,369
and I,

565
00:26:39,949 --> 00:26:41,910
I think I was half decent. So,

566
00:26:42,270 --> 00:26:44,329
so, um, all of that

567
00:26:44,589 --> 00:26:44,959
was

568
00:26:45,589 --> 00:26:46,969
ok. I always felt that

569
00:26:48,589 --> 00:26:49,859
people who are

570
00:26:51,300 --> 00:26:55,939
cutting up patients on a, on a surgery table or something like that

571
00:26:55,949 --> 00:26:57,150
have more responsibility

572
00:26:57,930 --> 00:27:00,329
than I had in many ways.

573
00:27:01,969 --> 00:27:02,910
So,

574
00:27:03,750 --> 00:27:06,920
what I mean is maybe less publicity and maybe,

575
00:27:07,430 --> 00:27:08,750
but, but still,

576
00:27:09,089 --> 00:27:10,439
I think ultimately

577
00:27:11,420 --> 00:27:15,689
I always felt yes, it is a lot of responsibility but it is, we are still doing

578
00:27:16,479 --> 00:27:17,449
sport or

579
00:27:17,989 --> 00:27:18,449
something

580
00:27:18,810 --> 00:27:20,540
a pastime, almost, for a lot of people. So it, it

581
00:27:21,109 --> 00:27:26,589
That doesn't mean I ever used that as an excuse to say to somebody, ‘Well, don't worry,’

582
00:27:26,599 --> 00:27:27,130
you know, we,

583
00:27:27,900 --> 00:27:27,910
uh,

584
00:27:28,650 --> 00:27:29,199
my boss,

585
00:27:30,900 --> 00:27:34,079
but I always felt that ultimately we are, uh, you know,

586
00:27:34,089 --> 00:27:35,729
we are still doing something that is fun.

587
00:27:35,739 --> 00:27:36,410
And, um,

588
00:27:36,689 --> 00:27:37,050
so,

589
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:37,750
yeah,

590
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:40,709
did, um, what was it like though? Going to

591
00:27:40,849 --> 00:27:43,260
that first, you know, few days at Benetton

592
00:27:43,390 --> 00:27:46,140
because as someone who was really into Formula One,

593
00:27:46,869 --> 00:27:49,550
that first few days of being in it, was it

594
00:27:49,699 --> 00:27:52,310
everything you hoped it to be? Was it a

595
00:27:52,569 --> 00:27:56,729
bit less, you know, what was the feeling like those first?

596
00:27:57,500 --> 00:27:58,219
Well, I remember

597
00:27:59,829 --> 00:28:00,729
driving,

598
00:28:00,900 --> 00:28:01,560
uh,

599
00:28:01,839 --> 00:28:04,640
up those country lanes, um,

600
00:28:05,140 --> 00:28:05,849
on

601
00:28:06,310 --> 00:28:07,729
the morning of day one.

602
00:28:08,829 --> 00:28:13,520
And of course, that was pre GPS and, uh, trying to find my way around.

603
00:28:14,619 --> 00:28:16,599
And I remember driving and,

604
00:28:17,770 --> 00:28:20,189
and thinking now, finally I'm going to

605
00:28:21,449 --> 00:28:22,449
learn the truth.

606
00:28:22,910 --> 00:28:26,630
You know, I'm going to ask all the questions for why,

607
00:28:27,349 --> 00:28:28,630
uh, this is

608
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:31,000
done in this way or that way

609
00:28:31,270 --> 00:28:35,579
and why is the car shaped in that particular way? Why is this particular

610
00:28:36,150 --> 00:28:37,030
duct and so on?

611
00:28:37,599 --> 00:28:38,589
And, um

612
00:28:39,780 --> 00:28:40,760
so

613
00:28:41,930 --> 00:28:43,459
I remember asking

614
00:28:43,770 --> 00:28:46,530
when I arrived, you know, the first day I went to the wind tunnel and say,

615
00:28:46,540 --> 00:28:47,469
why is this like that?

616
00:28:47,479 --> 00:28:48,189
Why is it like that?

617
00:28:48,890 --> 00:28:51,020
And I got a lot of answers along the

618
00:28:51,349 --> 00:28:55,640
lines of uh well, you know, we've tried certain shapes and this is the best one.

619
00:28:56,369 --> 00:28:59,969
And uh and I've got no idea why this works.

620
00:29:01,250 --> 00:29:02,030
So

621
00:29:02,219 --> 00:29:03,550
I guess my

622
00:29:03,869 --> 00:29:04,550
um

623
00:29:05,810 --> 00:29:07,040
yeah, my

624
00:29:07,380 --> 00:29:10,180
imagination of perfection was

625
00:29:10,319 --> 00:29:11,319
damped

626
00:29:11,530 --> 00:29:11,979
very, very

627
00:29:13,930 --> 00:29:14,199
uh

628
00:29:14,380 --> 00:29:14,640
uh

629
00:29:15,119 --> 00:29:15,880
and,

630
00:29:16,130 --> 00:29:16,479
and

631
00:29:17,260 --> 00:29:20,760
people nowadays, I think struggle a bit to understand it because

632
00:29:21,770 --> 00:29:22,739
nowadays,

633
00:29:23,699 --> 00:29:24,599
you have such

634
00:29:25,890 --> 00:29:27,910
near perfect simulations that

635
00:29:28,689 --> 00:29:33,650
people can see the flow can see almost every little vortex, every little

636
00:29:34,439 --> 00:29:35,189
eddy

637
00:29:35,719 --> 00:29:36,989
or something like that.

638
00:29:37,989 --> 00:29:38,589
Um

639
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:40,569
Whereas

640
00:29:40,829 --> 00:29:41,670
back then, of course,

641
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:45,810
we didn't have that and therefore to understand what the flow is doing,

642
00:29:45,819 --> 00:29:47,400
it was extremely difficult.

643
00:29:48,099 --> 00:29:50,599
And people

644
00:29:51,229 --> 00:29:54,000
of the previous generation hadn't pursued

645
00:29:54,359 --> 00:29:54,790
as many

646
00:29:54,910 --> 00:29:56,780
aerodynamic, you know,

647
00:29:57,510 --> 00:30:00,930
studies, and therefore a lot of it was empirical. So

648
00:30:01,140 --> 00:30:02,040
my,

649
00:30:02,260 --> 00:30:05,609
yeah, my my dream was shattered quite early

650
00:30:06,180 --> 00:30:07,410
but not my enthusiasm.

651
00:30:07,420 --> 00:30:11,750
But I mean, and I also realized very quickly that it's very difficult that

652
00:30:12,339 --> 00:30:17,449
you still need a lot of empirical approach. Even if you've done a PhD, it's not

653
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:22,229
your PhD doesn't immediately tell you what shape to do or anything

654
00:30:22,410 --> 00:30:26,250
like that. So you still have to spend a lot of time understanding things.

655
00:30:27,079 --> 00:30:28,650
I, I must admit, um,

656
00:30:29,150 --> 00:30:30,329
I had that

657
00:30:30,579 --> 00:30:32,180
reaction when I went into Formula

658
00:30:32,329 --> 00:30:32,969
One and I, I

659
00:30:33,239 --> 00:30:34,689
think I've seen others that

660
00:30:35,030 --> 00:30:35,689
the only

661
00:30:36,219 --> 00:30:38,849
the problem with doing a PhD in a way is that

662
00:30:38,969 --> 00:30:41,170
you have become an expert in your area,

663
00:30:41,180 --> 00:30:43,170
you become almost a little bit opinionated

664
00:30:43,180 --> 00:30:45,250
because you've been a sole person working

665
00:30:45,780 --> 00:30:50,199
and sometimes the temptation is to go in from academia to industry

666
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:53,819
and instantly question, you know, why aren't you doing this?

667
00:30:53,829 --> 00:30:54,739
Why aren't you doing that?

668
00:30:55,270 --> 00:30:56,290
And um

669
00:30:57,089 --> 00:30:59,540
but conversely, I found that, that

670
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:01,170
um

671
00:31:01,839 --> 00:31:04,099
practical pragmatism

672
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:05,979
is something that is just

673
00:31:06,569 --> 00:31:10,140
almost essential within industry, isn't it? There's a certain amount of this

674
00:31:10,810 --> 00:31:13,900
thing that, you know, the ideal world is in academia.

675
00:31:14,189 --> 00:31:16,130
But if you only live in the academic world,

676
00:31:16,140 --> 00:31:18,709
you don't really see how things are really done in industry.

677
00:31:18,719 --> 00:31:20,640
And that's what I personally have found.

678
00:31:21,119 --> 00:31:23,510
People who go into industry

679
00:31:24,609 --> 00:31:27,869
do see a more rounded view of,

680
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:32,550
of sort of design in the world um maybe different back then because

681
00:31:32,729 --> 00:31:35,709
they didn't have some of the simulation approaches. Um

682
00:31:37,410 --> 00:31:37,760
but

683
00:31:37,979 --> 00:31:38,000
yeah,

684
00:31:38,479 --> 00:31:39,810
I, I can see where you're coming from.

685
00:31:40,189 --> 00:31:40,709
Well,

686
00:31:41,060 --> 00:31:43,079
as I say, what I was impressed,

687
00:31:43,609 --> 00:31:47,079
what I was not impressed with on day one was

688
00:31:47,609 --> 00:31:50,400
the level of aerodynamic understanding. I felt

689
00:31:50,589 --> 00:31:51,349
it was low.

690
00:31:51,770 --> 00:31:54,400
What I was on the other hand, impressed with

691
00:31:55,290 --> 00:31:56,640
was the

692
00:31:57,329 --> 00:32:01,750
very intense programme and empirical approach and

693
00:32:02,060 --> 00:32:03,469
getting the job done.

694
00:32:04,079 --> 00:32:06,829
And that very much compensated. And

695
00:32:07,109 --> 00:32:08,900
for sure if somebody arrived

696
00:32:09,339 --> 00:32:13,609
on a high horse and said, this is what the theory says.

697
00:32:14,150 --> 00:32:15,300
Uh one

698
00:32:15,579 --> 00:32:16,550
wouldn't

699
00:32:16,750 --> 00:32:18,949
be successful, one had to do a lot of

700
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:20,020
empirical things.

701
00:32:20,030 --> 00:32:24,589
And I have to say in a bizarre way, my PhD because that was the previous question

702
00:32:24,930 --> 00:32:26,430
helped me because

703
00:32:26,790 --> 00:32:28,290
in my PhD, I had to

704
00:32:28,420 --> 00:32:32,030
design my experimental apparatus. I had to design my

705
00:32:32,469 --> 00:32:36,890
traversing gear to write little bits of software to analyze data, to

706
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:38,290
um

707
00:32:38,459 --> 00:32:42,030
take algorithms and fit them into my programs to do.

708
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:44,469
I don't know, Fourier transforms and stuff like that.

709
00:32:44,849 --> 00:32:46,189
So all of these things

710
00:32:47,670 --> 00:32:48,079
um

711
00:32:49,270 --> 00:32:52,359
I felt were extremely useful to my

712
00:32:52,469 --> 00:32:54,329
first years at work

713
00:32:55,020 --> 00:32:56,209
probably more than

714
00:32:56,819 --> 00:32:57,689
the actual

715
00:32:57,890 --> 00:33:02,770
knowledge I learned about vortices and uh bluff bodies.

716
00:33:03,439 --> 00:33:03,550
Yeah.

717
00:33:03,719 --> 00:33:05,969
No, no, I, I can see exactly.

718
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:08,329
And I guess at that time as well because there was so few

719
00:33:08,449 --> 00:33:11,109
aerodynamicists, you had a bigger impact,

720
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:12,209
um

721
00:33:12,420 --> 00:33:14,569
you know, potentially and you were driving the change.

722
00:33:14,739 --> 00:33:17,520
One question I did have is back in that time,

723
00:33:17,780 --> 00:33:20,339
you were probably, I guess at the

724
00:33:20,709 --> 00:33:23,900
crucial starting point of when CFD,

725
00:33:24,439 --> 00:33:26,810
when did CFD start to be used?

726
00:33:26,819 --> 00:33:28,560
Was it in those early nineties or was it

727
00:33:28,569 --> 00:33:30,949
when you moved to Ferrari that it was really more

728
00:33:31,430 --> 00:33:32,089
predominantly

729
00:33:33,579 --> 00:33:34,270
I

730
00:33:34,439 --> 00:33:35,439
was

731
00:33:36,369 --> 00:33:39,510
tasked with starting the Benetton CFD programme.

732
00:33:41,300 --> 00:33:41,790
And, uh

733
00:33:43,010 --> 00:33:44,229
and they did

734
00:33:44,670 --> 00:33:46,209
quite a lot of work there.

735
00:33:47,189 --> 00:33:47,979
Uh

736
00:33:49,219 --> 00:33:52,829
to say that the CFD work I did actually benefited the

737
00:33:53,449 --> 00:33:57,359
car would be probably quite wrong. Uh I

738
00:33:57,520 --> 00:33:58,540
think I,

739
00:33:59,239 --> 00:34:03,560
there was very little, if anything at all, that was CFD-originated

740
00:34:03,770 --> 00:34:04,520
and so on.

741
00:34:04,969 --> 00:34:05,770
Um

742
00:34:05,979 --> 00:34:06,750
I,

743
00:34:07,699 --> 00:34:08,790
I learned a lot

744
00:34:10,199 --> 00:34:11,540
about CFD

745
00:34:12,159 --> 00:34:13,780
and about why things

746
00:34:15,418 --> 00:34:17,299
are more complicated than CFD.

747
00:34:17,309 --> 00:34:21,158
So I think that benefited me in later stages of my career

748
00:34:21,819 --> 00:34:22,998
when I was at McLaren

749
00:34:23,368 --> 00:34:24,059
and Ferrari

750
00:34:24,309 --> 00:34:24,839
and so on.

751
00:34:25,259 --> 00:34:29,638
But initially, I remember I was doing 2D simulations for wings

752
00:34:30,858 --> 00:34:33,518
very soon. I realized that it was pretty hopeless

753
00:34:34,099 --> 00:34:35,678
and um

754
00:34:36,620 --> 00:34:39,708
and I was writing some routines to change wing

755
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,149
shapes and stuff like that and try to optimize.

756
00:34:42,159 --> 00:34:42,409
But

757
00:34:42,679 --> 00:34:43,478
basically,

758
00:34:44,310 --> 00:34:49,370
I didn't have a, a package that would tell me whether design A is better than design B

759
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:49,770
in

760
00:34:50,050 --> 00:34:53,149
a reliable way. So that was pretty hopeless.

761
00:34:53,610 --> 00:34:54,399
Um

762
00:34:54,620 --> 00:34:56,500
I guess back in the nineties.

763
00:34:56,860 --> 00:34:59,409
Uh And, and I was using the

764
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,080
uh how do you call it? The, the,

765
00:35:03,959 --> 00:35:06,370
the ancestor of Fluent

766
00:35:06,489 --> 00:35:06,520
was

767
00:35:06,959 --> 00:35:06,969
a

768
00:35:07,330 --> 00:35:08,020
package

769
00:35:08,860 --> 00:35:09,620
called

770
00:35:09,790 --> 00:35:10,659
RAMPANT.

771
00:35:12,310 --> 00:35:15,659
It was done by, I think the company was called Fluent,

772
00:35:16,070 --> 00:35:18,620
but, but the package was called RAMPANT

773
00:35:18,820 --> 00:35:18,929
initially.

774
00:35:20,699 --> 00:35:21,669
Um

775
00:35:22,149 --> 00:35:23,030
then

776
00:35:24,229 --> 00:35:25,290
I, I

777
00:35:25,939 --> 00:35:27,439
felt at that time

778
00:35:27,649 --> 00:35:32,129
and that was a common phenomenon in the nineties that people doing CFD felt

779
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:33,620
they were a bit

780
00:35:33,919 --> 00:35:36,370
too cut off from the real action

781
00:35:36,659 --> 00:35:42,199
They were like boffins on the side

782
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:46,929
and felt they were too detached. That was common back then.

783
00:35:47,489 --> 00:35:51,510
It also happened to me at Ferrari when I was in a senior position,

784
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:54,300
people doing CFD would come to me and say, now I want to do wind

785
00:35:54,419 --> 00:35:55,110
tunnel work

786
00:35:55,379 --> 00:35:56,070
back then.

787
00:35:57,310 --> 00:35:57,899
Um

788
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,850
So yes. Uh uh back then, I guess the most

789
00:36:02,659 --> 00:36:03,879
useful CFD

790
00:36:04,340 --> 00:36:04,889
um

791
00:36:05,100 --> 00:36:06,830
process back then was

792
00:36:07,330 --> 00:36:08,300
panel methods.

793
00:36:08,699 --> 00:36:12,530
Um panel methods were numerically, of course, a lot less

794
00:36:13,300 --> 00:36:13,830
dense.

795
00:36:14,110 --> 00:36:18,969
Uh You could design really reasonably well 3D

796
00:36:19,290 --> 00:36:22,020
shapes on wings like front wings.

797
00:36:22,510 --> 00:36:25,929
And um we started doing some panel methods

798
00:36:26,439 --> 00:36:30,850
then I was promoted to chief aerodynamicist in late 94. So

799
00:36:31,179 --> 00:36:34,250
I moved much more. My focus was much more into the wind tunnel

800
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:35,260
and

801
00:36:35,479 --> 00:36:35,689
so on.

802
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:38,840
Okay. And is it um

803
00:36:40,350 --> 00:36:44,449
which would you say has advanced the most from a practical,

804
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:46,610
making-a-car perspective?

805
00:36:46,620 --> 00:36:48,459
Do you think it's the wind tunnel technology

806
00:36:48,469 --> 00:36:51,100
since the nineties or the CFD technology?

807
00:36:54,219 --> 00:36:55,280
I would

808
00:36:56,199 --> 00:36:59,780
say the CFD by probably quite a considerable factor.

809
00:37:01,250 --> 00:37:01,739
I mean

810
00:37:02,929 --> 00:37:05,500
CFD has multiplied by,

811
00:37:06,409 --> 00:37:07,219
I don't know

812
00:37:08,350 --> 00:37:12,370
hundreds if not thousands of times in usefulness. Uh uh

813
00:37:12,629 --> 00:37:16,280
Whereas wind tunnel was pretty useful back then,

814
00:37:16,929 --> 00:37:21,250
of course, still very useful. Um clearly technology

815
00:37:21,939 --> 00:37:23,840
has evolved massively,

816
00:37:24,459 --> 00:37:24,929
but

817
00:37:25,580 --> 00:37:28,169
the basics are extremely similar.

818
00:37:28,709 --> 00:37:29,300
Um

819
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:31,120
whereas

820
00:37:31,969 --> 00:37:36,159
uh back then, you know, CFD, like back then was like a,

821
00:37:37,060 --> 00:37:38,479
like an abacus compared with now.

822
00:37:39,879 --> 00:37:42,610
I want to, I mean, this is jumping forward a little bit,

823
00:37:42,620 --> 00:37:44,010
but just while we're on the topic,

824
00:37:44,929 --> 00:37:45,550
um

825
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:50,459
I remember there was a lot of discussion about this, particularly during the sort of Manor

826
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:54,100
period in the Virgin team. So there were some of these challengers who

827
00:37:54,399 --> 00:37:56,500
tried to do more of a CFD-only

828
00:37:57,169 --> 00:37:58,060
approach.

829
00:37:58,070 --> 00:37:58,570
And obviously,

830
00:37:58,580 --> 00:38:03,219
now there are a lot more topical discussions around the role of wind tunnels and CFD.

831
00:38:03,949 --> 00:38:07,379
Do you see a future where CFD,

832
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:08,600
you know,

833
00:38:08,610 --> 00:38:13,929
could be the only or the predominant design tool or do you see that there is a,

834
00:38:14,669 --> 00:38:16,300
a role for wind tunnels and

835
00:38:16,679 --> 00:38:18,489
experimental methods

836
00:38:18,959 --> 00:38:21,649
almost always in this sport?

837
00:38:22,530 --> 00:38:23,270
Um

838
00:38:24,449 --> 00:38:26,429
Well depends. First of all, if you talk by,

839
00:38:26,610 --> 00:38:27,270
by

840
00:38:27,469 --> 00:38:29,750
the team's free choice or by

841
00:38:31,090 --> 00:38:32,100
regulation, of

842
00:38:32,290 --> 00:38:32,330
course,

843
00:38:32,949 --> 00:38:33,050
depends

844
00:38:33,389 --> 00:38:34,830
which way your question is.

845
00:38:35,439 --> 00:38:36,600
Uh I guess

846
00:38:37,209 --> 00:38:38,820
the prospect of CFD

847
00:38:39,229 --> 00:38:41,590
being the only development tool I think is

848
00:38:42,020 --> 00:38:43,989
I believe is becoming quite realistic.

849
00:38:44,830 --> 00:38:47,899
Um I think you will always need

850
00:38:48,330 --> 00:38:49,580
to have a very strong

851
00:38:50,350 --> 00:38:51,399
correlation

852
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:52,350
for them.

853
00:38:52,979 --> 00:38:54,770
And I believe that

854
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:56,649
therefore

855
00:38:57,500 --> 00:38:58,719
to have a periodic

856
00:38:59,850 --> 00:39:01,879
correlation um

857
00:39:02,090 --> 00:39:02,989
opportunity,

858
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:07,949
I think will always be necessary because you can't expect just to do CFD and to

859
00:39:08,300 --> 00:39:10,320
get a bad surprise when you arrive at the track.

860
00:39:10,330 --> 00:39:12,280
So you will need some form of correlation.

861
00:39:13,909 --> 00:39:16,050
I think that is a realistic prospect

862
00:39:16,389 --> 00:39:18,530
that it could happen.

863
00:39:19,189 --> 00:39:21,540
You mentioned Virgin

864
00:39:21,649 --> 00:39:22,129
and

865
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:23,739
back

866
00:39:26,229 --> 00:39:26,989
then

867
00:39:27,469 --> 00:39:30,250
I was, you know, when they were making a lot of noise about.

868
00:39:30,889 --> 00:39:34,310
Uh Well, actually we're going to do it all in CFD. I felt it was

869
00:39:34,530 --> 00:39:35,229
naive.

870
00:39:36,199 --> 00:39:37,669
Uh I

871
00:39:37,949 --> 00:39:38,929
however,

872
00:39:39,310 --> 00:39:42,419
was thinking back then, we were worrying a lot about,

873
00:39:42,989 --> 00:39:44,590
I don't know, curved flows.

874
00:39:44,949 --> 00:39:45,510
Um

875
00:39:46,889 --> 00:39:50,419
If you go many years further, back, back in the mid nineties,

876
00:39:50,429 --> 00:39:53,219
I believe at Benetton and we were probably the first

877
00:39:53,939 --> 00:39:55,179
to do serious work in

878
00:39:55,290 --> 00:39:55,310
yaw

879
00:39:56,050 --> 00:40:00,360
and the role of yaw and steer. We were the first to go away from the straight ahead

880
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:00,949
to

881
00:40:01,060 --> 00:40:01,080
yaw

882
00:40:01,250 --> 00:40:02,139
and found that yaw

883
00:40:02,270 --> 00:40:05,030
was giving so much performance that we had to develop a lot of them.

884
00:40:05,370 --> 00:40:08,149
I think that was a trend that then subsequently

885
00:40:08,969 --> 00:40:10,580
got copied by everybody.

886
00:40:11,030 --> 00:40:14,030
But back in the sort of

887
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:18,870
mid two thousands and late two thousands, we were worried about a

888
00:40:19,300 --> 00:40:21,179
lot more about wheel shapes,

889
00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:24,870
uh and tires and tire deformations

890
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:29,270
and um hot flows, um

891
00:40:29,989 --> 00:40:32,469
um curved flows,

892
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:35,300
all sorts of parameters of this sort of

893
00:40:35,489 --> 00:40:36,219
nature

894
00:40:37,290 --> 00:40:38,419
that clearly

895
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:40,919
could not be simulated in the wind tunnel properly.

896
00:40:41,620 --> 00:40:43,840
And therefore, I remember thinking

897
00:40:44,770 --> 00:40:44,780
uh

898
00:40:44,929 --> 00:40:45,629
well,

899
00:40:45,939 --> 00:40:48,820
maybe they, they have correlation issues, but at least

900
00:40:49,570 --> 00:40:50,449
they can

901
00:40:50,639 --> 00:40:52,709
simulate the full,

902
00:40:52,909 --> 00:40:54,080
you know, the full monty

903
00:40:54,979 --> 00:40:58,070
only to find out when I did my brief stint at Manor

904
00:40:58,209 --> 00:40:58,830
um

905
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:01,919
that actually at Virgin

906
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:04,790
they were running just half a car straight ahead. So therefore,

907
00:41:05,439 --> 00:41:07,659
I think they had the worst of both worlds. They had

908
00:41:07,780 --> 00:41:08,100
just a

909
00:41:08,780 --> 00:41:10,699
straight-ahead

910
00:41:11,050 --> 00:41:14,699
condition to, to the best of what I've been told, I never saw any data,

911
00:41:14,709 --> 00:41:15,500
but somebody told me

912
00:41:15,770 --> 00:41:16,790
that was what they were doing

913
00:41:17,209 --> 00:41:20,830
and no correlation. Clearly, I think they had underestimated

914
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:25,409
the difficulties that are posed by open wheels.

915
00:41:26,770 --> 00:41:27,870
But how, I mean,

916
00:41:28,370 --> 00:41:33,770
obviously I'm a CFD person, I'm quite biased in wanting to see more CFD.

917
00:41:33,780 --> 00:41:36,090
But then equally, I can understand a,

918
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:39,739
an argument of, well, how does it make the sport

919
00:41:40,139 --> 00:41:42,090
better? How do you balance?

920
00:41:42,100 --> 00:41:45,899
And then the other argument is, well, Formula One should be the pinnacle of technology

921
00:41:46,620 --> 00:41:50,879
and we need to be pushing all things forward like CFD and other things.

922
00:41:51,020 --> 00:41:55,270
How do you balance in your head? This thing between it's a sport.

923
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:58,320
It's all about just how exciting the racing is versus

924
00:41:58,989 --> 00:42:02,729
upholding that Formula One is the pinnacle of engineering.

925
00:42:02,739 --> 00:42:05,310
It's trying to be always using the latest methods.

926
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:09,479
That's why companies want to sponsor it. You know, how do you balance those two?

927
00:42:10,169 --> 00:42:11,070
That's

928
00:42:11,550 --> 00:42:11,560
a

929
00:42:11,709 --> 00:42:14,229
very good question and a very

930
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:17,790
difficult one. It's a very, very fine balance because

931
00:42:18,469 --> 00:42:19,389
as you,

932
00:42:20,570 --> 00:42:21,659
we do have,

933
00:42:21,969 --> 00:42:23,060
uh obviously

934
00:42:24,770 --> 00:42:26,270
we do rely on

935
00:42:27,530 --> 00:42:28,729
public watching us

936
00:42:29,489 --> 00:42:30,070
and,

937
00:42:31,179 --> 00:42:31,639
and

938
00:42:32,429 --> 00:42:37,080
the main client of Formula One is the fan on the grandstand

939
00:42:37,790 --> 00:42:39,489
and they must

940
00:42:39,610 --> 00:42:43,429
watch an exciting race, exciting championship.

941
00:42:43,639 --> 00:42:45,760
Sometimes we succeed, sometimes less so.

942
00:42:47,469 --> 00:42:48,250
Um

943
00:42:48,929 --> 00:42:52,030
I think fans don't want to see Formula One become

944
00:42:53,330 --> 00:42:55,020
like a one-make series.

945
00:42:55,479 --> 00:42:57,949
I think they are interested in the fact that

946
00:42:57,959 --> 00:43:00,080
it is a Ferrari fighting against a Red Bull,

947
00:43:00,090 --> 00:43:03,239
against Mercedes, against McLaren, etcetera, etcetera.

948
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:05,959
Therefore,

949
00:43:07,739 --> 00:43:10,939
there has to be a competition for technological stuff.

950
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:13,090
And at

951
00:43:13,580 --> 00:43:15,770
the same time, Formula One needs to be

952
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:17,659
pure. Uh

953
00:43:18,139 --> 00:43:19,459
when I say pure, I mean,

954
00:43:19,469 --> 00:43:24,110
uh we don't want to have uh let's say Balance of Performance of some sort,

955
00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:26,570
try to handicap the fast car or something like that.

956
00:43:27,850 --> 00:43:28,780
Um

957
00:43:29,179 --> 00:43:30,729
And fair in that respect.

958
00:43:31,010 --> 00:43:31,620
And

959
00:43:31,870 --> 00:43:34,179
also we, we need to,

960
00:43:35,850 --> 00:43:36,850
to reduce

961
00:43:37,090 --> 00:43:37,870
costs.

962
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:39,699
Um

963
00:43:39,830 --> 00:43:40,469
And

964
00:43:40,729 --> 00:43:41,510
in the last

965
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:43,379
period,

966
00:43:43,389 --> 00:43:45,379
uh we all have an obligation to

967
00:43:45,389 --> 00:43:47,760
remain relevant from an environmental point of view

968
00:43:48,129 --> 00:43:49,260
and, and so on.

969
00:43:49,530 --> 00:43:50,580
All of these

970
00:43:51,050 --> 00:43:52,239
key targets,

971
00:43:52,449 --> 00:43:53,659
entertainment,

972
00:43:54,110 --> 00:43:57,020
technological, uh you know, environmental

973
00:43:57,229 --> 00:44:01,090
um cost uh sustainability in that respect,

974
00:44:01,379 --> 00:44:02,500
all of these are

975
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:05,699
mutually incompatible to some degree.

976
00:44:06,530 --> 00:44:08,389
Uh So as any,

977
00:44:10,110 --> 00:44:11,919
you know, mutually incompatible

978
00:44:14,050 --> 00:44:16,610
um set of equations with

979
00:44:17,010 --> 00:44:21,040
many equations with sorry, too many unknowns with too few equations

980
00:44:21,340 --> 00:44:22,179
and vice versa,

981
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:25,199
um Too many equations with too few unknowns.

982
00:44:25,669 --> 00:44:26,270
The

983
00:44:26,399 --> 00:44:30,770
the solution is, is always, let's say what one perceives to be a best fit,

984
00:44:31,629 --> 00:44:32,189
not

985
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:34,620
uh it's not um

986
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:37,929
it cannot be too much in one direction or the other.

987
00:44:38,350 --> 00:44:39,100
Um

988
00:44:41,159 --> 00:44:44,020
And that is a very difficult part we have

989
00:44:47,620 --> 00:44:49,969
in my current role for us at the FIA is

990
00:44:52,060 --> 00:44:52,800
really

991
00:44:54,679 --> 00:44:55,419
having,

992
00:44:55,620 --> 00:44:59,699
let's say an agenda to protect the sport as much as possible and to make it

993
00:44:59,959 --> 00:45:01,610
grow and to keep it

994
00:45:01,929 --> 00:45:03,620
to achieve those objectives,

995
00:45:04,370 --> 00:45:05,060
we have

996
00:45:06,469 --> 00:45:07,169
the

997
00:45:07,479 --> 00:45:10,639
the team participants, you know, team principals, for example,

998
00:45:10,649 --> 00:45:12,389
the the the bosses of the teams

999
00:45:12,550 --> 00:45:14,709
who also love the sport and want it to be healthy.

1000
00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:16,610
But they also at the same time, they want to win.

1001
00:45:16,820 --> 00:45:19,419
And they in the discussion, they,

1002
00:45:19,860 --> 00:45:20,330
they

1003
00:45:20,459 --> 00:45:21,320
look at both,

1004
00:45:21,330 --> 00:45:23,229
they look whether this particular rule is going

1005
00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:25,610
to benefit my team more than their team.

1006
00:45:25,969 --> 00:45:26,979
They also look at

1007
00:45:27,209 --> 00:45:30,189
whether the sport is going to grow. Then you go into discussions with

1008
00:45:30,850 --> 00:45:34,110
the engineers who also look at the interest of the sport

1009
00:45:34,580 --> 00:45:35,129
and,

1010
00:45:35,610 --> 00:45:37,449
and it's all very legitimate.

1011
00:45:37,459 --> 00:45:39,969
But every participant and every stakeholder

1012
00:45:39,979 --> 00:45:42,159
in these discussions has a slightly different

1013
00:45:42,709 --> 00:45:44,909
angle to why they, they

1014
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:48,020
believe the sport should go in one particular direction or another.

1015
00:45:51,070 --> 00:45:51,320
Um

1016
00:45:51,610 --> 00:45:53,790
sorry, we can't make it just

1017
00:45:54,739 --> 00:45:58,389
a playground for who is designing a car. Uh It can't be

1018
00:45:59,270 --> 00:46:01,750
um just a playground for,

1019
00:46:02,459 --> 00:46:04,590
for an aerodynamicist, for example,

1020
00:46:05,010 --> 00:46:05,629
um

1021
00:46:06,030 --> 00:46:09,030
or, or an engine designer or anything,

1022
00:46:09,229 --> 00:46:13,939
but also it cannot be one-make. There's a middle ground somewhere

1023
00:46:14,300 --> 00:46:18,000
that tries to, to, to identify the correct areas

1024
00:46:18,159 --> 00:46:20,199
where we want to have competition,

1025
00:46:20,629 --> 00:46:22,510
to what extent, and the

1026
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:24,870
areas where we don't want to have competition maybe

1027
00:46:25,330 --> 00:46:28,060
and so on. And clearly, we always want to keep the driver very,

1028
00:46:28,540 --> 00:46:28,979
um

1029
00:46:29,459 --> 00:46:32,429
you know, a key part of the, of the competition because

1030
00:46:32,739 --> 00:46:36,330
ultimately the fans want to see humans racing against humans.

1031
00:46:37,479 --> 00:46:38,870
I am still

1032
00:46:39,709 --> 00:46:43,729
amazed when I, you know, have some friends message me who

1033
00:46:44,550 --> 00:46:48,649
are really into Formula One and they love the intrigue about

1034
00:46:48,810 --> 00:46:50,399
the engineering stuff.

1035
00:46:50,620 --> 00:46:52,909
It is one of the things of Formula One, isn't it that people,

1036
00:46:52,919 --> 00:46:55,169
even if they don't fully understand it,

1037
00:46:55,389 --> 00:46:58,250
and there's probably very few people who truly understand

1038
00:46:58,510 --> 00:47:01,080
what's put on the car and the real reason, you know,

1039
00:47:01,090 --> 00:47:02,689
there's a lot of people who write about it

1040
00:47:02,860 --> 00:47:04,810
but a lot of people don't actually understand it

1041
00:47:04,860 --> 00:47:06,669
but it doesn't matter because they love the intrigue.

1042
00:47:06,679 --> 00:47:09,149
Don't, oh, have you seen the new rear wing of that car? It's, it

1043
00:47:09,550 --> 00:47:12,969
is almost part of the sport, isn't it this technical?

1044
00:47:14,429 --> 00:47:15,139
Although

1045
00:47:15,820 --> 00:47:18,909
we need to be very conscious that if it was just that,

1046
00:47:19,659 --> 00:47:19,679
yeah,

1047
00:47:20,510 --> 00:47:22,459
and no entertainment

1048
00:47:22,679 --> 00:47:25,550
then we'd be all looking for another job.

1049
00:47:26,810 --> 00:47:27,000
Yeah.

1050
00:47:27,010 --> 00:47:27,689
And probably,

1051
00:47:27,699 --> 00:47:29,350
maybe we're all a little bit in our own

1052
00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:32,449
bubble because probably most people we speak to are engineers

1053
00:47:32,770 --> 00:47:33,830
and they're the ones,

1054
00:47:34,530 --> 00:47:34,689
there are a

1055
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:34,979
lot of

1056
00:47:35,270 --> 00:47:35,350
people

1057
00:47:35,620 --> 00:47:35,979
who

1058
00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:36,449
don't,

1059
00:47:37,689 --> 00:47:38,729
um,

1060
00:47:40,300 --> 00:47:41,629
understand any of that,

1061
00:47:42,030 --> 00:47:43,760
even avid fans.

1062
00:47:44,770 --> 00:47:45,750
And

1063
00:47:47,090 --> 00:47:50,929
some years ago when we were discussing some regulation changes, there were some,

1064
00:47:51,979 --> 00:47:53,389
um, teams,

1065
00:47:54,050 --> 00:47:54,399
some

1066
00:47:54,580 --> 00:47:57,550
principals who said, uh, that's going to make all cars look,

1067
00:47:58,070 --> 00:47:58,790
um,

1068
00:47:59,489 --> 00:48:00,629
very similar to each other.

1069
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:02,699
And

1070
00:48:02,919 --> 00:48:03,560
we,

1071
00:48:03,570 --> 00:48:08,899
I remember somebody did a rendering of the previous generation cars all in white

1072
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:13,020
and asked the team principals to, to

1073
00:48:13,209 --> 00:48:15,199
recognize which was their own car.

1074
00:48:15,209 --> 00:48:17,489
In most cases, they couldn't even tell their own car

1075
00:48:17,750 --> 00:48:19,020
apart from the others.

1076
00:48:19,639 --> 00:48:20,219
And

1077
00:48:21,060 --> 00:48:21,919
the reason

1078
00:48:23,199 --> 00:48:24,129
however,

1079
00:48:24,709 --> 00:48:25,219
that

1080
00:48:26,550 --> 00:48:31,060
we, we don't have cars that look a lot more different. It's not only

1081
00:48:31,399 --> 00:48:34,659
whether the rules are more restrictive. That is one part of the reason,

1082
00:48:35,179 --> 00:48:37,489
the other part of the reason is that,

1083
00:48:37,909 --> 00:48:38,600
um

1084
00:48:39,139 --> 00:48:42,229
I think it's very much what we've been discussing for the last one hour.

1085
00:48:42,429 --> 00:48:43,939
It's the level of simulation.

1086
00:48:44,350 --> 00:48:45,020
Um

1087
00:48:45,179 --> 00:48:45,840
The,

1088
00:48:46,260 --> 00:48:48,689
the amount of simulation you do nowadays,

1089
00:48:49,250 --> 00:48:49,919
um

1090
00:48:50,949 --> 00:48:55,419
There's no way you would design a car with six wheels even if it was permitted.

1091
00:48:56,229 --> 00:48:56,929
Um

1092
00:48:57,949 --> 00:48:59,389
If it wasn't much better

1093
00:49:00,780 --> 00:49:03,479
or, or if it wasn't clearly better in simulation

1094
00:49:03,659 --> 00:49:04,270
or

1095
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:10,399
indeed, uh if it was better, probably there would be ten cars with six wheels

1096
00:49:10,959 --> 00:49:11,040
and

1097
00:49:11,300 --> 00:49:14,189
suddenly there would be a rule saying, well, actually you must have four wheels.

1098
00:49:14,870 --> 00:49:15,330
But

1099
00:49:15,469 --> 00:49:17,300
what I mean is there's no way you would

1100
00:49:17,310 --> 00:49:20,340
design something that is so far out of the ordinary

1101
00:49:20,629 --> 00:49:20,899
with

1102
00:49:21,179 --> 00:49:22,370
a, with a low nose or,

1103
00:49:23,129 --> 00:49:26,020
or completely different things like double diffusers or,

1104
00:49:26,209 --> 00:49:29,159
you know, all of these, either successful or unsuccessful

1105
00:49:29,879 --> 00:49:31,780
um things of the past.

1106
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:36,260
Nowadays, the level of simulation is so so

1107
00:49:37,290 --> 00:49:38,429
fantastic

1108
00:49:38,879 --> 00:49:39,429
that

1109
00:49:39,679 --> 00:49:43,250
you can't just use your gut feeling anymore or, or your instinct

1110
00:49:44,290 --> 00:49:45,830
or some sound knowledge,

1111
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:50,989
but you just need to simulate and a lot less is left to chance nowadays,

1112
00:49:52,159 --> 00:49:54,139
which leads then on to the

1113
00:49:54,250 --> 00:49:56,590
I guess, logical question of

1114
00:49:57,379 --> 00:49:58,030
AI

1115
00:49:58,820 --> 00:50:00,489
in a lot of industries,

1116
00:50:00,949 --> 00:50:05,600
there have been breakthroughs in drug discovery, weather forecasting

1117
00:50:05,929 --> 00:50:08,770
where with sufficient amount of prior data,

1118
00:50:09,070 --> 00:50:13,209
machine learning models have been trained and shown to actually give

1119
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:16,169
as good or faster, you know, predictions.

1120
00:50:16,790 --> 00:50:22,459
Is this something that you sort of see as almost a natural evolution, just a CFD,

1121
00:50:22,709 --> 00:50:24,250
wind-tunnel thing? Or

1122
00:50:24,659 --> 00:50:25,489
is that

1123
00:50:25,989 --> 00:50:26,750
sort of

1124
00:50:26,889 --> 00:50:26,899
a,

1125
00:50:27,570 --> 00:50:28,419
a sweet spot here?

1126
00:50:28,429 --> 00:50:31,899
You know, you have to be careful that you don't have a team that's, you know,

1127
00:50:31,909 --> 00:50:33,870
blasting money on training AI models.

1128
00:50:33,879 --> 00:50:34,270
And

1129
00:50:34,770 --> 00:50:35,500
as you said,

1130
00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:38,830
being able just to automatically design a car almost, you know, where,

1131
00:50:38,899 --> 00:50:40,379
where do you see that

1132
00:50:40,629 --> 00:50:43,669
future going when it comes to AI in the sport?

1133
00:50:45,909 --> 00:50:46,449
When

1134
00:50:47,350 --> 00:50:47,360
I

1135
00:50:47,610 --> 00:50:48,209
think it's,

1136
00:50:49,530 --> 00:50:49,550
I

1137
00:50:49,739 --> 00:50:51,120
think it's uh

1138
00:50:51,659 --> 00:50:55,310
unavoidable. It will be playing a more and more dominant

1139
00:50:55,949 --> 00:50:57,169
role in this sport.

1140
00:50:57,729 --> 00:50:59,129
I don't think there's,

1141
00:50:59,610 --> 00:51:00,370
I don't think that

1142
00:51:01,399 --> 00:51:03,860
clock can go backwards in that respect.

1143
00:51:04,500 --> 00:51:05,750
There's a lot of things,

1144
00:51:06,179 --> 00:51:07,340
uh which

1145
00:51:08,709 --> 00:51:09,479
happen,

1146
00:51:09,739 --> 00:51:10,520
which

1147
00:51:11,270 --> 00:51:11,459
are

1148
00:51:12,020 --> 00:51:13,489
an indication of progress.

1149
00:51:14,139 --> 00:51:15,209
Um,

1150
00:51:15,510 --> 00:51:17,610
not only in the sport but in

1151
00:51:17,820 --> 00:51:19,120
life in general,

1152
00:51:19,570 --> 00:51:23,040
which in many ways have made

1153
00:51:24,350 --> 00:51:26,419
life better in a particular way,

1154
00:51:26,790 --> 00:51:28,199
but have made

1155
00:51:29,830 --> 00:51:32,929
life less fun than it used to be and so on.

1156
00:51:33,540 --> 00:51:34,800
And, um,

1157
00:51:35,100 --> 00:51:37,280
but you, many times you can't go back,

1158
00:51:38,030 --> 00:51:38,800
I'm pretty

1159
00:51:40,580 --> 00:51:42,080
clear in my head that

1160
00:51:42,479 --> 00:51:43,689
kids having

1161
00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:46,179
computer games and Game Boys and,

1162
00:51:46,449 --> 00:51:49,159
and, uh, you know, online games

1163
00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:51,409
is a lot less,

1164
00:51:51,899 --> 00:51:55,300
uh, fun overall than playing in the woods.

1165
00:51:55,310 --> 00:51:58,810
And, uh, you know, building houses out in the garden.

1166
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:00,100
Um,

1167
00:52:02,070 --> 00:52:03,709
and I think it is a bit

1168
00:52:05,260 --> 00:52:07,989
and I, I went, I mean, my kids are now

1169
00:52:08,300 --> 00:52:11,439
old enough that I don't have to have this concern, but I had a

1170
00:52:11,949 --> 00:52:14,419
moral dilemma about whether they should get a game

1171
00:52:14,429 --> 00:52:16,850
boy or a computer game or something like that.

1172
00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:18,219
And,

1173
00:52:19,689 --> 00:52:23,510
but at some point it became impossible to resist the tide

1174
00:52:23,889 --> 00:52:25,689
of that thing happening.

1175
00:52:25,979 --> 00:52:30,159
And I think the same applies to what we've been discussing about simulation.

1176
00:52:30,750 --> 00:52:32,909
Simulation has removed a lot of the

1177
00:52:33,699 --> 00:52:34,760
intuitive

1178
00:52:35,370 --> 00:52:35,959
or

1179
00:52:37,020 --> 00:52:40,750
a sexy part of creative, creating something different.

1180
00:52:41,379 --> 00:52:42,760
And, um,

1181
00:52:44,399 --> 00:52:47,340
and, and AI has, I think a similar

1182
00:52:47,770 --> 00:52:49,120
connotation, I guess,

1183
00:52:49,729 --> 00:52:50,679
um,

1184
00:52:53,629 --> 00:52:56,889
I don't think these things are things that can go back really.

1185
00:52:58,300 --> 00:52:58,949
I get, yeah.

1186
00:52:58,959 --> 00:53:03,100
So I guess for you more, it's more just how you manage it and make sure that teams

1187
00:53:03,439 --> 00:53:06,620
because I guess the challenge you always have is you're not dealing with a, and

1188
00:53:06,820 --> 00:53:08,729
this isn't meant to be offensive to the team.

1189
00:53:09,570 --> 00:53:14,729
You're dealing with incredibly competitive people and teams who will go,

1190
00:53:15,580 --> 00:53:20,320
who won't stop just for the sort of moral or ethical reason, but will go

1191
00:53:20,590 --> 00:53:22,419
to the limits of the rules, essentially.

1192
00:53:22,929 --> 00:53:25,860
Um, that seems to be my impression of sport, you know, there's,

1193
00:53:26,060 --> 00:53:27,610
it's a, it's a tough, it's like

1194
00:53:27,889 --> 00:53:31,379
any other sports people are so passionate that they will just go up to the line,

1195
00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:34,399
I guess the difficulty for you as an organization is just how you

1196
00:53:35,449 --> 00:53:36,350
frame it

1197
00:53:36,540 --> 00:53:40,629
in a way to protect it from the excesses that they may do.

1198
00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:42,280
Yeah. Um I

1199
00:53:42,459 --> 00:53:45,340
think that will be evolving in the next few years.

1200
00:53:45,989 --> 00:53:47,040
Clearly,

1201
00:53:47,550 --> 00:53:48,530
we also

1202
00:53:49,649 --> 00:53:50,699
are going to be

1203
00:53:50,979 --> 00:53:53,699
using more and more AI for

1204
00:53:53,909 --> 00:53:55,820
policing and for detecting

1205
00:53:56,479 --> 00:53:59,270
breaches and, and so on and so forth. So,

1206
00:53:59,659 --> 00:54:00,919
uh, it's,

1207
00:54:01,300 --> 00:54:02,939
it's a bit on both sides, I guess.

1208
00:54:04,080 --> 00:54:06,629
Yeah. Yeah, it's the million-dollar question.

1209
00:54:06,639 --> 00:54:09,129
You're in a unique place to maybe answer this.

1210
00:54:10,010 --> 00:54:11,399
People always wonder,

1211
00:54:12,429 --> 00:54:14,850
what do you think is the reason you have a team,

1212
00:54:14,860 --> 00:54:18,139
let's say Mercedes or it could be McLaren in the past.

1213
00:54:18,149 --> 00:54:21,610
It doesn't really matter who have been going really well,

1214
00:54:21,620 --> 00:54:23,969
had a great car won world championships

1215
00:54:24,409 --> 00:54:25,050
and then

1216
00:54:25,780 --> 00:54:26,719
the next year

1217
00:54:27,070 --> 00:54:28,949
usually, I guess because of a rule change,

1218
00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:30,120
but not always,

1219
00:54:30,810 --> 00:54:32,820
they then start to do really poorly,

1220
00:54:34,070 --> 00:54:34,500
is it?

1221
00:54:35,199 --> 00:54:37,169
But they have the same people sometimes.

1222
00:54:37,709 --> 00:54:42,500
Does it suggest that Formula One, whilst there's lots of simulation, is just such

1223
00:54:43,020 --> 00:54:45,790
a complex thing that people truly have still not

1224
00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:48,120
really understood how to design a Formula One car.

1225
00:54:48,129 --> 00:54:48,540
And so

1226
00:54:48,860 --> 00:54:51,620
there's so many risks that you can just go off the wrong path.

1227
00:54:52,899 --> 00:54:55,770
You know, why is it that they can suddenly go from great

1228
00:54:56,030 --> 00:54:57,070
to terrible.

1229
00:55:00,149 --> 00:55:00,199
First

1230
00:55:00,310 --> 00:55:02,360
of all, I'd rather not speak specifically about.

1231
00:55:05,860 --> 00:55:07,179
I've lived in a similar,

1232
00:55:07,889 --> 00:55:08,719
um,

1233
00:55:09,239 --> 00:55:11,300
I've lived similar experiences as, you know,

1234
00:55:11,310 --> 00:55:13,760
working for a team when it's been winning at

1235
00:55:13,770 --> 00:55:16,060
one time and then doing badly at another time.

1236
00:55:16,729 --> 00:55:17,530
Um,

1237
00:55:19,560 --> 00:55:22,689
I guess, well, first of all the gaps nowadays are very small

1238
00:55:23,020 --> 00:55:26,459
and therefore what you call doing terribly

1239
00:55:27,310 --> 00:55:29,830
is maybe three or four tenths of a second

1240
00:55:29,989 --> 00:55:30,570
a lap.

1241
00:55:31,100 --> 00:55:35,530
As you say, the, there's, um, usually

1242
00:55:35,939 --> 00:55:37,929
quite a lot of accumulated knowledge

1243
00:55:38,310 --> 00:55:38,929
that

1244
00:55:40,969 --> 00:55:46,070
it is difficult to undo and, and sometimes the rule change contributes to that, um,

1245
00:55:46,080 --> 00:55:47,120
you know, being

1246
00:55:47,540 --> 00:55:50,310
nullified and then almost people starting again.

1247
00:55:50,939 --> 00:55:51,870
Um

1248
00:55:53,679 --> 00:55:54,689
It's extremely

1249
00:55:56,229 --> 00:55:57,209
difficult to

1250
00:55:58,100 --> 00:56:00,719
not become complacent. I think if you're winning,

1251
00:56:01,590 --> 00:56:05,590
um, people do become complacent by, by nature.

1252
00:56:06,209 --> 00:56:07,159
Um

1253
00:56:08,409 --> 00:56:11,649
I find that myself as well. It's, um,

1254
00:56:12,129 --> 00:56:16,060
you know, it's easier to, to underestimate sometimes the task at hand.

1255
00:56:16,909 --> 00:56:21,169
Um So I think it's all of these factors that, that can contribute.

1256
00:56:22,330 --> 00:56:23,820
Well, how much this is my

1257
00:56:24,030 --> 00:56:26,070
theory, I'm interested to know if you agree with this

1258
00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:28,139
a people thing.

1259
00:56:28,510 --> 00:56:30,280
How much do you think of it is a

1260
00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:35,050
ultimately this wave of people. So

1261
00:56:35,389 --> 00:56:37,530
somebody gets lured away to another team

1262
00:56:38,729 --> 00:56:43,469
by the fact that somebody else goes to another team, somebody else replaces them.

1263
00:56:43,750 --> 00:56:46,459
Maybe the people below didn't like that, they got replaced.

1264
00:56:46,469 --> 00:56:48,179
They don't, that causes some bad thing.

1265
00:56:48,189 --> 00:56:50,000
Then the other person leaves like,

1266
00:56:50,010 --> 00:56:52,629
how much do you think of this weird thing is this going

1267
00:56:52,639 --> 00:56:54,979
back to the other question of all the teams being so close,

1268
00:56:54,989 --> 00:56:55,929
they jump around.

1269
00:56:56,169 --> 00:56:59,110
How much do you think this is also like a people thing

1270
00:56:59,120 --> 00:57:02,469
rather than technology and that who you have as your leader

1271
00:57:03,270 --> 00:57:05,810
can actually make a genuine difference

1272
00:57:06,100 --> 00:57:11,699
because of the potential for people to move around. And I think I would tend to agree.

1273
00:57:11,810 --> 00:57:14,000
I think the people thing is,

1274
00:57:14,459 --> 00:57:17,489
is very much part of it. And, um,

1275
00:57:18,149 --> 00:57:23,580
yeah, I, I mentioned it as complacency, but complacency involves a team maybe

1276
00:57:23,729 --> 00:57:25,719
stagnating. And, um,

1277
00:57:26,250 --> 00:57:30,320
but on the other hand, it could be that you lose two or three key personnel

1278
00:57:30,780 --> 00:57:32,570
and then the new people,

1279
00:57:33,330 --> 00:57:33,909
you know,

1280
00:57:34,139 --> 00:57:38,110
working together don't quite manage to click together properly

1281
00:57:38,659 --> 00:57:39,189
and so on.

1282
00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:41,620
I remember when I was,

1283
00:57:41,899 --> 00:57:44,760
uh, I'm digressing a bit but when I was at Ferrari,

1284
00:57:45,209 --> 00:57:45,770
um

1285
00:57:46,570 --> 00:57:46,820
in,

1286
00:57:48,469 --> 00:57:50,679
and I was chief designer in that

1287
00:57:51,020 --> 00:57:51,239
period,

1288
00:57:51,379 --> 00:57:52,139
we won

1289
00:57:52,300 --> 00:57:53,820
two championships in

1290
00:57:53,979 --> 00:57:55,860
2007, 2008.

1291
00:57:56,860 --> 00:57:59,330
And I was feeling particularly chuffed about that

1292
00:58:02,250 --> 00:58:03,399
and we had,

1293
00:58:03,780 --> 00:58:04,419
um,

1294
00:58:05,159 --> 00:58:09,540
the company had organized for some of the senior managers, some sort of

1295
00:58:09,969 --> 00:58:11,689
leadership training and,

1296
00:58:14,260 --> 00:58:14,790
and they were,

1297
00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:15,979
they were,

1298
00:58:17,320 --> 00:58:18,139
and I remember

1299
00:58:18,520 --> 00:58:20,530
doing these sessions with

1300
00:58:20,860 --> 00:58:23,060
all my group, like my senior

1301
00:58:24,100 --> 00:58:26,199
people in my group. And there was about

1302
00:58:27,159 --> 00:58:28,610
seven or eight of us

1303
00:58:29,070 --> 00:58:29,889
and

1304
00:58:30,540 --> 00:58:32,260
I remember they gave us a task

1305
00:58:33,370 --> 00:58:36,270
to do. It was like a bit of a role-play-type

1306
00:58:36,959 --> 00:58:38,929
game type task

1307
00:58:39,449 --> 00:58:41,060
where you had to produce an outcome.

1308
00:58:42,250 --> 00:58:45,790
And I remember we sat down very much like we do in a meeting and we said, ok,

1309
00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:47,060
now what's the task?

1310
00:58:47,070 --> 00:58:48,139
Let's do XYZ

1311
00:58:48,570 --> 00:58:49,429
and so on.

1312
00:58:49,590 --> 00:58:52,949
Um uh these things that

1313
00:58:53,169 --> 00:58:56,250
some people were giving us, tasks are less important.

1314
00:58:56,260 --> 00:58:57,439
These things are more important.

1315
00:58:57,669 --> 00:58:58,959
Let's vote. Ok, bla bla bla,

1316
00:58:59,820 --> 00:58:59,879
so

1317
00:58:59,989 --> 00:59:02,719
we, we delivered the results quite quickly

1318
00:59:03,250 --> 00:59:05,629
and I felt we were going to get good

1319
00:59:06,090 --> 00:59:06,909
grades.

1320
00:59:07,110 --> 00:59:08,600
I thought we'd get good feedback.

1321
00:59:08,610 --> 00:59:11,239
These, um, people who are organizing this course,

1322
00:59:11,250 --> 00:59:13,790
these external psychologists and stuff

1323
00:59:14,250 --> 00:59:14,949
and

1324
00:59:15,060 --> 00:59:20,639
they gave us a little bit of a blasting. They, they said, oh, no, it's,

1325
00:59:21,250 --> 00:59:25,229
it's all too easy. You, you guys are too complacent. You know, it's just

1326
00:59:25,510 --> 00:59:29,510
these things you had to choose between to make your decisions.

1327
00:59:29,520 --> 00:59:31,469
You should have had a much more

1328
00:59:32,169 --> 00:59:35,840
intense debate and higher level of tension in your group

1329
00:59:36,050 --> 00:59:36,989
to decide.

1330
00:59:37,350 --> 00:59:38,489
You shouldn't have just

1331
00:59:39,810 --> 00:59:44,030
steamrolled through the, the easy solution and you should have debated it far more.

1332
00:59:45,149 --> 00:59:45,810
And

1333
00:59:46,889 --> 00:59:48,100
off the back of

1334
00:59:48,600 --> 00:59:49,820
two championships,

1335
00:59:50,820 --> 00:59:53,669
I felt, come on. What are these guys talking about?

1336
00:59:54,770 --> 00:59:58,560
Then 2009 came, which was a very bad year for, for us.

1337
00:59:59,020 --> 00:59:59,760
And

1338
01:00:00,050 --> 01:00:00,820
I remember

1339
01:00:00,979 --> 01:00:02,179
thinking that

1340
01:00:02,500 --> 01:00:06,139
actually, and understanding a bit more what they were on about.

1341
01:00:06,850 --> 01:00:07,469
Um,

1342
01:00:07,790 --> 01:00:07,800
I

1343
01:00:07,979 --> 01:00:09,139
think it's,

1344
01:00:09,590 --> 01:00:12,560
it's not only people liking to work with each other,

1345
01:00:12,570 --> 01:00:14,330
it's also challenging each other

1346
01:00:14,969 --> 01:00:16,520
on which and,

1347
01:00:16,810 --> 01:00:20,379
and sometimes challenging each other sometimes comes with

1348
01:00:21,939 --> 01:00:24,510
not liking each other if you know what I mean? And,

1349
01:00:24,699 --> 01:00:27,439
and what is the right balance between

1350
01:00:28,500 --> 01:00:33,489
getting on and agreeing or not getting on and disagreeing or, or

1351
01:00:33,590 --> 01:00:35,020
how do you mix both? I

1352
01:00:35,300 --> 01:00:37,560
think is very much, uh,

1353
01:00:37,699 --> 01:00:38,949
one of the difficulties

1354
01:00:39,550 --> 01:00:39,889
I know.

1355
01:00:39,899 --> 01:00:41,500
It's one of these things that I must admit,

1356
01:00:41,510 --> 01:00:43,850
I think when you're early on in your career, you do think, oh,

1357
01:00:43,860 --> 01:00:44,889
this is a load of rubbish.

1358
01:00:44,899 --> 01:00:45,899
You know, this is all this

1359
01:00:46,090 --> 01:00:49,149
psychobabble, talking about all this psychology stuff. But

1360
01:00:49,330 --> 01:00:49,780
I don't know.

1361
01:00:49,790 --> 01:00:53,340
At least, the more I progressed through my career,

1362
01:00:53,350 --> 01:00:55,570
the more appreciation I had

1363
01:00:55,810 --> 01:00:59,330
for the role of the culture you set and like

1364
01:00:59,340 --> 01:01:02,090
how much level of disagreement or agreement you allow.

1365
01:01:02,100 --> 01:01:02,429
And

1366
01:01:02,800 --> 01:01:06,830
I think it can have more of an influence than people realize on sort of

1367
01:01:07,110 --> 01:01:07,120
a team.

1368
01:01:08,139 --> 01:01:09,520
Absolutely. And I remember in my early

1369
01:01:09,830 --> 01:01:10,459
career,

1370
01:01:11,229 --> 01:01:15,060
uh I'm going to speak ultimately very positively about two

1371
01:01:15,489 --> 01:01:18,659
individuals. I have huge respect for and

1372
01:01:19,040 --> 01:01:20,139
therefore,

1373
01:01:20,449 --> 01:01:21,169
uh uh

1374
01:01:21,449 --> 01:01:23,459
I'm sure if they happen to listen to this.

1375
01:01:25,709 --> 01:01:29,100
I had my, my two bosses in my early career were

1376
01:01:29,830 --> 01:01:31,850
uh Ross Brawn and Rory Byrne.

1377
01:01:32,310 --> 01:01:35,040
And in my Benetton days, I remember

1378
01:01:35,810 --> 01:01:36,639
um

1379
01:01:37,570 --> 01:01:38,659
I was thinking

1380
01:01:39,129 --> 01:01:39,139
that

1381
01:01:39,350 --> 01:01:43,570
Rory was chief designer and he was basically creating the car and Ross was a more

1382
01:01:45,129 --> 01:01:47,870
managerial leadership type role.

1383
01:01:48,580 --> 01:01:49,229
And

1384
01:01:49,330 --> 01:01:52,949
in my Benetton days, I definitely, if you'd asked me who's actually

1385
01:01:53,399 --> 01:01:55,179
responsible for the results,

1386
01:01:55,760 --> 01:01:58,389
I would have 100% said Rory.

1387
01:01:58,989 --> 01:02:02,610
And I still believe Rory had a massive input and was very,

1388
01:02:02,620 --> 01:02:04,409
very good at what he was doing.

1389
01:02:04,899 --> 01:02:05,290
So

1390
01:02:06,620 --> 01:02:08,600
as the years moved by, uh

1391
01:02:08,790 --> 01:02:11,719
I realized actually that Ross had

1392
01:02:12,600 --> 01:02:14,159
also an extremely important

1393
01:02:14,550 --> 01:02:15,739
role of a different nature,

1394
01:02:16,189 --> 01:02:20,600
which in my early years, I, I really underestimated and then I

1395
01:02:20,790 --> 01:02:24,919
understood how important it was probably more after we moved to Ferrari, for

1396
01:02:25,139 --> 01:02:25,239
example.

1397
01:02:27,270 --> 01:02:29,939
Yeah, I guess you needed, maybe also

1398
01:02:30,379 --> 01:02:34,219
as well. You needed to be in a senior position yourself to fully appreciate,

1399
01:02:34,399 --> 01:02:35,810
you know, what others

1400
01:02:35,939 --> 01:02:36,889
are

1401
01:02:37,270 --> 01:02:38,320
doing.

1402
01:02:38,399 --> 01:02:42,020
Did you ever, um, you've obviously been in Formula One now?

1403
01:02:42,419 --> 01:02:44,399
I mean, essentially your whole career

1404
01:02:44,719 --> 01:02:47,959
and it does seem to be a trend that people stay in it,

1405
01:02:48,449 --> 01:02:49,669
but I would imagine

1406
01:02:50,370 --> 01:02:51,830
has a part of you ever,

1407
01:02:52,100 --> 01:02:52,590
you know,

1408
01:02:52,889 --> 01:02:54,459
wanted to go off and

1409
01:02:55,870 --> 01:03:01,209
do a start up in California on eVTOL or, or, or do something completely different.

1410
01:03:01,219 --> 01:03:03,449
Have you, do you still have the sort of bug

1411
01:03:03,709 --> 01:03:06,909
for Formula One even to this day? Is it that strong

1412
01:03:07,909 --> 01:03:07,989
within you?

1413
01:03:08,409 --> 01:03:10,120
I definitely have still got the bug

1414
01:03:11,389 --> 01:03:12,209
um,

1415
01:03:12,370 --> 01:03:13,110
I,

1416
01:03:15,830 --> 01:03:18,889
I wouldn't say it is a bug that prevails over everything else.

1417
01:03:19,419 --> 01:03:22,729
I have seen quite a lot of people who've left and done

1418
01:03:23,399 --> 01:03:25,959
start ups or different things and

1419
01:03:26,260 --> 01:03:28,179
are very happy and content with that.

1420
01:03:29,080 --> 01:03:30,830
Um I also

1421
01:03:30,939 --> 01:03:33,219
know quite a lot of people who have a better

1422
01:03:33,449 --> 01:03:34,939
work life balance

1423
01:03:35,040 --> 01:03:35,610
than I have.

1424
01:03:35,810 --> 01:03:36,850
And

1425
01:03:37,919 --> 01:03:38,709
therefore,

1426
01:03:38,850 --> 01:03:40,709
um, I certainly

1427
01:03:41,040 --> 01:03:46,669
wouldn't see it in as absolute a way now that I perhaps used to see it

1428
01:03:47,320 --> 01:03:49,290
10 or 20 or 30 years ago.

1429
01:03:49,800 --> 01:03:53,300
But I still enjoy it and I feel very fortunate

1430
01:03:53,659 --> 01:03:54,010
to be doing it,

1431
01:03:55,459 --> 01:04:00,020
so maybe uh a kind of final question for you or area

1432
01:04:00,500 --> 01:04:01,679
really about

1433
01:04:02,300 --> 01:04:07,239
what you would advise to people and you must get asked questions so much,

1434
01:04:07,250 --> 01:04:10,709
but I'll try and be more specific with it around getting into Formula One.

1435
01:04:11,709 --> 01:04:13,649
Is there, first of all,

1436
01:04:14,129 --> 01:04:18,010
the PhD route, I would call the becoming a specialist

1437
01:04:18,469 --> 01:04:19,169
route.

1438
01:04:19,989 --> 01:04:21,409
Would you,

1439
01:04:21,850 --> 01:04:23,389
would you advocate for that?

1440
01:04:23,399 --> 01:04:27,449
Is that somewhere you would look for if you were sort of hiring people?

1441
01:04:27,909 --> 01:04:29,719
And secondly,

1442
01:04:29,909 --> 01:04:32,330
what about this balance between the

1443
01:04:33,080 --> 01:04:34,360
Formula One

1444
01:04:35,370 --> 01:04:39,000
knowledge or the motorsport knowledge versus the

1445
01:04:39,780 --> 01:04:43,639
science or the technology? It's often a question I get asked like, should I

1446
01:04:43,959 --> 01:04:45,510
do a motorsport degree?

1447
01:04:45,520 --> 01:04:47,689
Should I do work experience in motorsport or is it more

1448
01:04:47,699 --> 01:04:52,040
important to have the sort of science and the technical knowledge?

1449
01:04:54,169 --> 01:04:58,360
Ok. There's, there's obviously more than one way to skin a cat.

1450
01:04:59,429 --> 01:04:59,909
Now,

1451
01:05:04,120 --> 01:05:06,260
I do get asked this a lot and I do

1452
01:05:07,850 --> 01:05:08,989
speak with

1453
01:05:10,989 --> 01:05:13,969
young people who are in this phase of their studies quite a lot

1454
01:05:14,800 --> 01:05:16,860
and they ask me such questions.

1455
01:05:17,370 --> 01:05:18,189
Um

1456
01:05:18,320 --> 01:05:20,949
So what I say is my opinion, it's not the only way.

1457
01:05:21,229 --> 01:05:21,840
Um

1458
01:05:22,580 --> 01:05:24,169
I don't think a PhD is

1459
01:05:24,330 --> 01:05:25,350
essential.

1460
01:05:26,179 --> 01:05:26,870
Um

1461
01:05:27,370 --> 01:05:28,500
and it's not

1462
01:05:30,969 --> 01:05:31,000
uh

1463
01:05:31,649 --> 01:05:35,189
if you consider three years versus a master's of one year,

1464
01:05:36,679 --> 01:05:37,340
does it

1465
01:05:37,850 --> 01:05:40,179
vastly improve the chances?

1466
01:05:40,479 --> 01:05:41,489
I would say,

1467
01:05:42,929 --> 01:05:45,090
I think a PhD has this

1468
01:05:46,489 --> 01:05:50,419
degree of flexibility that if you happen to find a job at the right moment, you can

1469
01:05:50,899 --> 01:05:53,909
more easily jump ship and more easily

1470
01:05:54,629 --> 01:05:57,770
uh move into your job without

1471
01:05:57,909 --> 01:06:00,500
maybe completing a PhD, which is very inadvisable. But,

1472
01:06:00,639 --> 01:06:01,810
you know, people would do that.

1473
01:06:05,729 --> 01:06:06,370
I'm not,

1474
01:06:09,379 --> 01:06:09,959
I

1475
01:06:10,100 --> 01:06:11,550
think I prefer

1476
01:06:11,659 --> 01:06:12,860
more general,

1477
01:06:13,679 --> 01:06:14,879
more generalists

1478
01:06:15,260 --> 01:06:17,280
than specialists overall.

1479
01:06:17,770 --> 01:06:18,280
Um

1480
01:06:18,739 --> 01:06:19,909
I don't think it is

1481
01:06:20,159 --> 01:06:23,159
essential to do a motorsport course.

1482
01:06:23,840 --> 01:06:25,520
I think, um,

1483
01:06:25,959 --> 01:06:30,540
you know, doing a general engineering or, or something like that

1484
01:06:31,370 --> 01:06:32,090
is

1485
01:06:33,989 --> 01:06:35,209
at least as good.

1486
01:06:35,219 --> 01:06:38,080
And then what prevails in the choice is

1487
01:06:38,090 --> 01:06:40,419
the quality of the university rather than the,

1488
01:06:40,629 --> 01:06:43,760
whether the course is a specific motorsport course or not.

1489
01:06:44,790 --> 01:06:48,090
What I do however, recommend a lot

1490
01:06:48,409 --> 01:06:50,250
to young people is

1491
01:06:50,629 --> 01:06:53,090
I give them two bits of advice. One is

1492
01:06:53,870 --> 01:06:54,850
my opinion of course.

1493
01:06:55,080 --> 01:07:00,179
Uh that if the university has a Formula SAE type activity,

1494
01:07:00,840 --> 01:07:03,399
I think it is strongly advisable that they do that.

1495
01:07:04,739 --> 01:07:05,520
Um

1496
01:07:06,020 --> 01:07:07,929
If you want to get into motorsport, of course,

1497
01:07:08,090 --> 01:07:09,280
because uh

1498
01:07:09,850 --> 01:07:10,659
doing it,

1499
01:07:11,209 --> 01:07:11,600
uh

1500
01:07:12,100 --> 01:07:15,439
indicates that they work hard, they can work in a team.

1501
01:07:16,260 --> 01:07:17,850
Um They, they

1502
01:07:20,429 --> 01:07:24,610
have spent a huge amount of time doing that as well as studying for their

1503
01:07:24,800 --> 01:07:26,570
degree and getting the good grades.

1504
01:07:27,219 --> 01:07:29,250
Uh I was asked a question by one guy.

1505
01:07:29,260 --> 01:07:32,689
Um, what's more important: do Formula SAE or get good grades? Well, you need both.

1506
01:07:35,879 --> 01:07:38,459
That's very common in Formula SAE, because they get obsessed with it.

1507
01:07:40,419 --> 01:07:42,250
I remember telling him, no, no, if you,

1508
01:07:42,459 --> 01:07:45,199
if you're going to do it and then have bad grades,

1509
01:07:45,540 --> 01:07:46,679
actually, then you're

1510
01:07:47,419 --> 01:07:48,179
worse off.

1511
01:07:48,870 --> 01:07:52,760
Um, so you need to do both and if you manage to do well in both

1512
01:07:52,889 --> 01:07:53,560
it means

1513
01:07:53,850 --> 01:07:56,030
it gives a message to your employer that, look,

1514
01:07:57,689 --> 01:07:59,689
you're a hard worker. And

1515
01:08:00,090 --> 01:08:00,439
uh and

1516
01:08:00,590 --> 01:08:00,610
so,

1517
01:08:02,120 --> 01:08:03,620
so I definitely advise that.

1518
01:08:04,100 --> 01:08:04,189
Another

1519
01:08:04,449 --> 01:08:05,219
thing I advise

1520
01:08:05,669 --> 01:08:06,469
is

1521
01:08:06,659 --> 01:08:10,379
that the world is changing and

1522
01:08:10,949 --> 01:08:15,179
we don't know what it will be like in 20, 30 or 40 years from now.

1523
01:08:15,929 --> 01:08:17,950
And people should

1524
01:08:19,099 --> 01:08:21,318
uh always have a plan B as well.

1525
01:08:21,818 --> 01:08:26,837
And uh and make sure that what they study and what they do doesn't

1526
01:08:27,627 --> 01:08:32,249
lead only into motorsport, but can lead into a variety of fields

1527
01:08:33,639 --> 01:08:38,099
in motorsport. So I consider it's, it's good luck to be in motorsport. I,

1528
01:08:38,249 --> 01:08:39,957
I've been extremely fortunate.

1529
01:08:40,709 --> 01:08:43,290
I'm not sure if somebody who is now 20 who,

1530
01:08:43,970 --> 01:08:44,950
who will be

1531
01:08:45,809 --> 01:08:50,269
still working in 45 years from now, probably when he's 65.

1532
01:08:51,140 --> 01:08:53,839
I'm not sure if he can rely on,

1533
01:08:54,559 --> 01:08:57,229
on just motorsport being his breadwinner.

1534
01:08:57,769 --> 01:09:00,139
So I think it's important for

1535
01:09:00,479 --> 01:09:03,059
people to keep to, to have a wide

1536
01:09:03,368 --> 01:09:05,328
range of skills and abilities.

1537
01:09:06,578 --> 01:09:07,948
Yeah, it is. Uh

1538
01:09:08,457 --> 01:09:12,438
that's really good advice. And I, and I, what I find as well,

1539
01:09:12,749 --> 01:09:16,158
maybe it's because of what we spoke about right at the beginning:

1540
01:09:17,419 --> 01:09:20,640
there are so many people employed in these teams

1541
01:09:21,379 --> 01:09:24,339
and it's hard to progress, you know,

1542
01:09:24,350 --> 01:09:27,720
because I guess it's like a triangle, you know, sort of structure, isn't it?

1543
01:09:28,379 --> 01:09:29,080
Um

1544
01:09:29,370 --> 01:09:30,979
I usually say to people that,

1545
01:09:31,839 --> 01:09:34,620
you know, yes, be passionate about getting into Formula One,

1546
01:09:34,959 --> 01:09:35,509
but it's,

1547
01:09:35,910 --> 01:09:37,379
it's also a great stepping stone.

1548
01:09:37,390 --> 01:09:39,939
So many people have gone into Formula One and become

1549
01:09:39,950 --> 01:09:42,220
experts and then exported that into others.

1550
01:09:42,229 --> 01:09:45,430
I think one of Formula One's greatest exports is its talent.

1551
01:09:45,439 --> 01:09:47,339
I know you often talk about technology

1552
01:09:47,529 --> 01:09:52,740
but I'd say it's more the people if you look at Tesla and Rivian and all these sort of

1553
01:09:52,990 --> 01:09:56,240
exciting companies and you look at who's the person who's

1554
01:09:56,560 --> 01:10:00,160
head of aero or chief designer. It's almost always someone from Formula One.

1555
01:10:00,169 --> 01:10:01,529
It's, it's kind of incredible.

1556
01:10:01,790 --> 01:10:04,129
It has been a great exporter, hasn't it, in talent?

1557
01:10:04,140 --> 01:10:07,020
Even if you don't make it in Formula One or decide to leave

1558
01:10:07,500 --> 01:10:08,620
it. It's still a good

1559
01:10:09,520 --> 01:10:10,970
stepping stone, I suppose.

1560
01:10:11,250 --> 01:10:11,459
Yeah.

1561
01:10:12,459 --> 01:10:13,379
Yeah, I agree. Yeah.

1562
01:10:14,009 --> 01:10:14,339
Yeah.

1563
01:10:15,129 --> 01:10:18,399
Well, thank you. Really appreciate it. I know you're a busy man.

1564
01:10:18,410 --> 01:10:21,890
And as this is probably your first day back, there's about a million emails.

1565
01:10:24,410 --> 01:10:27,549
I have to close with

1566
01:10:27,709 --> 01:10:27,850
a mini

1567
01:10:28,600 --> 01:10:29,509
boast.

1568
01:10:30,029 --> 01:10:30,830
Uh

1569
01:10:31,500 --> 01:10:35,660
I think sometimes um my

1570
01:10:36,689 --> 01:10:41,270
biggest contribution to the sport I think was I believe I was the guy who

1571
01:10:41,700 --> 01:10:44,549
initially originated the idea of the August break.

1572
01:10:44,939 --> 01:10:46,040
And so,

1573
01:10:46,259 --> 01:10:47,600
so Um

1574
01:10:48,129 --> 01:10:49,859
Thanks to that, I don't have a million emails

1575
01:10:50,359 --> 01:10:50,919
and I

1576
01:10:51,140 --> 01:10:51,250
have

1577
01:10:51,520 --> 01:10:54,970
only a relatively manageable list of emails to go through.

1578
01:10:54,979 --> 01:10:57,830
But nonetheless, I'm trying to remember what it was all about. So

1579
01:10:59,620 --> 01:11:00,549
that's a good thing. Right.

1580
01:11:00,560 --> 01:11:03,939
So people, whenever they're, you know, disappointed in the FIA's decision,

1581
01:11:03,950 --> 01:11:06,750
they should thank you for actually giving them a nice break

1582
01:11:07,129 --> 01:11:07,729
over August

1583
01:11:08,120 --> 01:11:08,370
and it was

1584
01:11:08,490 --> 01:11:09,209
done for,

1585
01:11:09,540 --> 01:11:10,740
back in my pre

1586
01:11:10,870 --> 01:11:11,000
FIA

1587
01:11:11,120 --> 01:11:11,649
days. So

1588
01:11:11,919 --> 01:11:13,859
I proposed it when I was at Ferrari

1589
01:11:14,410 --> 01:11:16,709
and I proposed it when I came back when I,

1590
01:11:16,720 --> 01:11:19,689
I think I would have thought about it when I was flying back on a plane.

1591
01:11:20,100 --> 01:11:24,569
Uh, a bad holiday, which was full of phone calls and emails and

1592
01:11:25,120 --> 01:11:26,180
trying to

1593
01:11:26,500 --> 01:11:30,589
um manage between my little kids at that time and

1594
01:11:30,740 --> 01:11:32,930
phone calls and working on a report

1595
01:11:33,270 --> 01:11:37,839
and I had a really lousy holiday and I remember thinking that's just stupid, you

1596
01:11:37,939 --> 01:11:38,009
know?

1597
01:11:41,000 --> 01:11:41,910
It was a good decision.

1598
01:11:43,410 --> 01:11:43,439
Okay.

1599
01:11:43,790 --> 01:11:46,259
Great. Thanks so much. Really appreciate it. Nice

1600
01:11:46,379 --> 01:11:46,470
to see

1601
01:11:46,580 --> 01:11:46,600
you

1602
01:11:46,740 --> 01:11:46,970
again.

1603
01:11:47,790 --> 01:11:47,939
Keep

1604
01:11:48,069 --> 01:11:48,100
in

1605
01:11:48,220 --> 01:11:48,319
touch

1606
01:12:12,060 --> 01:12:12,089
then.