Hi, and welcome to the Neil Ashton Podcast.
In each episode, we explained some of the fascinating ways
that science and engineering are changing the world around us.
We talked to leading engineers from elite level sports like
cycling in Formula One to some of the world's top academics to
understand how fluid dynamics, machine learning, supercomputing
are bringing in a new era discovery.
We also hear some of their life stories, their career advice,
the lessons they've learned on the way that I hope will be
helpful to you too. So sit back and enjoy this
episode. Hi and welcome back to the new
Ashton podcast today. Super excited about this, this
episode. I'm a big fan of cycling.
I'm a big fan of the use of engineering within sports, hence
my level sort of of Formula One. And I couldn't think of a better
person and team to speak to, to help people to understand what
cycling is all about and why engineering and technology is
such an important thing for the sport.
And in some ways, cycling is becoming, in my opinion, and
growing to become more like Formula One in being not only a
human sport, but one where technology is really making a
difference with really exciting innovations that that then make
their way to to you and I, you know, the, the, the public.
And so today I'm speaking to to Kurt, Kurt Bergen Taylor, who's
the head of innovation at Tudor Pro Cycling.
And I kind of say in a way that if you're in the know, you're a
bit obsessed with with cycling like I am.
I think it's pretty universally accepted that Tudor are actually
one of the up and coming teams who I think have a very good
chance in the next sort of two to five years of winning Grand
Tours and some of the biggest races.
As you'll find from the conversation today, you'll see
they are taking really an amazing long term view of how to
take technology and, and really, yeah, build up a team and a
process and science to to really extract the maximum performance
out of their riders. And of course the equipment
based in based in Switzerland with a very famous owner in
Fabian Cancellara, who of course is one of the world's most
famous cyclist with amazing palmares and and Tudor obviously
is one of the world's sort of top, top watch brands.
It's a, it's a very interesting company, but really what we're
talking about today is about what what is cycling, I suppose
a little bit just to start off with.
That's how we started the conversation.
But really diving into the areas where technology makes a
difference, where science makes a difference, and ultimately
where there is innovation potential, which is the whole
point of of Kurt's job. So we go through, you know,
things like nutrition, thermal, so how the human body reacts to
heat and cold. We talk about some of the
influence of aerodynamics around the development.
You hear some of the stuff they're doing, their use of CFD
in terms of, you know, mannequin peddling mannequins, how the
strategy happens. You hear some about the number
of race days that they have, the logistical challenges, hopefully
all just to give you a better sense of why I again, I perceive
now cycling as being, if you're into Formula One, I always say
get into cycling because I really do think it's great human
and technological sport. But at the end we talk about
something that again, you, you know, it's a common theme of
these podcasts is advice for people wanting to get into to
the sport of cycling. But I'd say just in general
advice for people wanting to do well in engineering and science
and in any of the sort of sports engineering side.
So, yeah, I, I, I really enjoyed this conversation.
I, I actually learned some things from it and I was even
more motivated with all the latest technological advances.
So I, I hope you are too. I'm going to put some links in
the chat about Tudor and so you can learn a little bit more
about the team because again, I do think it's interesting and
hopefully from there you'll make your way to learning a little
bit also about the sport if you're not so familiar with Pro
Cycling. So yeah, today sit back and
enjoy this episode with Kurt Picken Taylor of Tudor Pro
Cycling. Maybe you could tell a little
bit more about yourself and Tudor Pro Cycling.
Some people listening are probably really into cycling and
proper geeks and know about the different teams.
But maybe just to level set everybody, maybe you could just
say a little bit about you, what you do at Tudor and who are
Tudor Pro Cycling. Yeah, absolutely, Neil.
So really my background comes from from academic.
So rather than some people in cycling who've come from kind of
being a professional athlete themselves, mine's more from
from an academic background. Did a masters and then a PhD at
Loughborough University in the UK and that was really around
kind of Physiology and nutrition around cycling really.
So understanding kind of from a human component and that really
kind of enticed me into wanting to work within, within cycling.
I was really fortunate at that point in time to be able to work
with people on the track. So people like Dan Bigham, who's
kind of a performance engineer now working with in psych and
also and, and doing some really interesting things about that
human equipment interaction and, and looking at how to move
forward, performance forward. And, and it attracts a really
nice environment for that because it's, it's measured, you
know, it's controlled. It's like a science experiment
every time you go on the board. So it's really has this culture
for for innovation and that was something that I enjoyed so
much. I really then decided I wanted
to work within within cycling. And then I had the opportunity
to go to Canada. So I worked for the Canadian
federation on the track towards the Tokyo Olympic Games.
And that was a really amazing experience in this kind of
performance scientist role. So sitting in between the human,
the equipment, the whole system innovation really and looking at
that as a as a system and that was such a great experience
towards that games. And yeah, really had a positive
impact on on where I saw myself moving forward.
Then COVID hit and yeah, the whole world kind of changed.
So that was really a point where we decided that we had to come
back to Europe and then had an opportunity to work within a
professional cycling team more as a coach, which was Team DSM
at the time. I worked there for two years,
mainly in that physiological kind of coaching role.
And then the opportunity with judo Pro Cycling came up to kind
of sit back in that more holistic kind of space.
So working with the physical and technical components of cycling,
which is where I kind of see myself really as as a scientist,
like not as a as an engineer, not as a physiologist, but
really as a scientist. You can kind of, you know, make
experiments, understand A versus B, and then find the right
people with the X-Men team knowledge to kind of drive
things forward. In terms of the team, it's a
really, it's a really interesting story.
It's was really born out of a team called Swiss Racing
Academy. So there was a team in the past,
a continental level team, which is like the third tier basically
of cycling that was there to encourage Swiss riders to be
able to make it professional basically.
So it was a team that was made, so they had basic conditions to
race, to have a salary, to have bikes, and that has been there
for many years and was really kind of a successful pathway for
Swiss riders to get into professional cycling.
And in 2022, essentially that was going to close.
So they struggled to gain their funding and it happened at a
really difficult point in terms of timing.
And basically, the guys who were left on that team were not going
to be able to find another team because all the teams were
fulfilled. And then the owner of our team,
Fabian, Fabian Kanchalara, who's a very famous and successful
cyclist from, from Switzerland, really saw this opportunity as
really saving, you know, the opportunity and careers of
these, these young Swiss riders. And he put himself in their
shoes and said, well, if I don't step in and, and give them this
chance to, to ride, like what's going to happen to their career?
And that's really the, the start of that process.
Then he found out pretty quickly, you need sponsorship,
you need help, you need support. And that's where Tudor came in.
Tudor being the, the watch brand, part of the Hans Weld off
foundation with Rolex as the main sponsor of, of the team.
And that started in 2022. And now we're we're going into
our third year of being a Tudor Pro Cycling really, which is
it's gone from strength to strength.
We're a pro team, so second tier technically, but with like a
world tour mindset. So we really see ourselves
growing towards being one of the biggest teams in the world.
And we're investing now in the kind of future of the team.
We have a really long term vision.
We invest in the staff, we invest in the people, we invest
in the science really because we know long term that's what's
going to make us at the highest level in the sport great.
Yeah, and I suppose at least from, from myself watching it,
Tudor's definitely seen as one of the top teams that potential
will get, you know, promoted, I guess, you know, in the in the
coming years and gets the invitations to the to the sort
of Grand Tours. So I guess to many people who
are not deep into sport, you may people may not know the
difference between the second tier and the top tier because
Tudor tends to be in actually quite a few of the big races
anyway. But you know, before maybe we
get into some of the more detailed topics, what you know,
what's it like working for a team?
I imagine it's a bit like Formula One where there's a
difference between, you know, the races, you know, the Lewis
Hamiltons and the Julian Anna Philippe's now and the team
behind. So what what does it look like
to to work for a pro team? You know, like a typical week,
you know, how much are you at the races versus back at testing
places in factories, just to give a sense.
Yeah, yeah. No, I'd say the first thing is
it's not very typical. So it's, it's one of them
industries where especially my role kind of as as head of
innovation, it really sits across, you know, many different
disciplines and, and yeah, with with the first thing really with
cyclists, the season is so, so big.
So we race from the middle of January until the end of
October. So we can be racing at three
races on the same day all across Europe and even across the
world. So it's a big logistical
challenge first of all, where where everything occurs.
We race roughly around 250 days a year in that period.
So it's quite a lot of time on the ground that's obviously
without the preparation before, after logistics and things like
that. So that during that period
really most of the time is focused on delivery of race
delivery of performance delivery.
So a lot of my support then is about optimization of setups,
making sure that all the work we've done is executed.
We, we have a really big push on, on the application of
innovation. I think is really important
because we can do a lot of, you know, really cool things, but
actually to get them to be applied at the right time with
the right people in the right races is massive when you can
have 3 or 4 races going on on the same day.
So that's a big push during the season.
We still have our innovation team that runs basically 24/7
throughout the season as well. So we have a setup based in
Silverstone. We have 4 full time engineers,
we have a PhD student, we have an industrial designer, all
working on technological development.
So we look at all the strands which we can approach really and
we move them forward. And we have 3 strategic themes
with all our innovation. So we look from aerodynamics
because we know that's the biggest force that we overcome
as a cyclist. We look from thermal because we
know thermal challenges are really, really important.
And then we look from safety. So everything that we do, we
always try and say, can we make it faster or economically, can
we understand the thermal properties and can we ultimately
make it safer for the riders going into race and competition.
And that can be if we're in the wind tunnel testing, it can be
if we're doing fabric testing in the wind tunnel, whole system
testing. How are we doing bike
development? How are we doing CFD
simulations? Are we doing velodrome testing?
Are we in the field, doing in the field measures of rolling
resistance or tire development? Are we working with academic or
industry partners on different projects?
So it's really varied depending on what we have going on at that
point in time. Yeah, I always find this
fascinating, and I guess This is why so many people I know have
this love of cycling who also tend to be into things like
Formula One, because the technology is such an
interesting part of it. But you mentioned something
about the thermal side and that's something that I
personally wasn't as familiar with until I personally did the
attack the Tour in like very hot temperatures.
I was like, OK, thermal does actually make a lot of
difference. So maybe could you explain a
little bit more because I think this may actually be useful for
day-to-day cyclists who are doing things.
What sort of technology or learnings do you get about
cycling in sort of more extreme conditions over, you know, very
hot or very, very cold? But how does that influence the
performance of a cyclist? Yeah, it's a really good
question and it's something we see more and more is integral to
the performance. I think that too are very
different, you know, scenarios and situations.
If we look at hot weather, we know that in Europe, from
probably May until the end of August, it can be 3540° in some
races, which we know is a really extreme environment.
And we also know that the riders are getting fitter and stronger,
which means they're putting out more power outputs, which
ultimately means they're putting out more heat as well.
Because yeah, what you see on the pedals is actually probably
only 1/4 of the energy that's actually produced.
The other 3/4 of that is thermal energy as well.
So we know that you have these guys sitting in really hot
environments making a lot of thermal energy, and something
has to give. And ultimately that is
performance. You know, we see more and more
that it can be so critical to performance.
If you overheat, things start to shut down, your body protects
you from that and ultimately performance is part of a
consequence of that. So we try and do a lot of
research around heat. We do probably a few different
strands. So we do kind of prevention and
preparation. I would say so.
We train the riders to tolerate heat demands.
We know that that is a trainable stimulus like getting fitter.
You can also tolerate heat better.
You get changes with your sweat response, you get changes with
plasma volume, you get these physiological changes which
allow you to to basically deal better with the heat.
So we do a lot of that preparation and we've seen more
and more in cycling. That is probably the thing
that's really increased a lot in the last year's research around
that area, understanding of that area, understanding the
transients responses that can be done there.
And then we also see we do a lot of prevention stuff.
So we look at precooling. Can we bring down the
temperature prior or even during exercise?
Can we create a bigger thermal sink so that we know there's
just more room to drive heat into?
And there's lots of great researchers in that area.
We work with partners quite a lot on on that.
We do a lot of work around fabrics and helmet design and
things like that to understand convective cooling and, and
material components and properties to really help with
with that. And we're doing a lot of work
around UV radiation because we know also this, you know, the
radiative effect of sun as well and things like that.
So there's definitely a lot of work to be done from a heat
perspective to really allow athletes to perform in innate
conditions. But like you said, also in the
cold, it's something we see more and more.
You know, some of the biggest one day races in the world,
they're in Belgium in the middle of March and April.
And I can tell you now from being there first hand, you want
every layer of clothing you have on possible because their
conditions can be really quite harsh.
And that's something we also know if riders get cold, if they
get wet, it also has a massive detriment on their performance.
So it's something we work on quite a lot to also understand
what can we do from a material perspective, from an
intervention perspective, How do we do the logistics around that?
You know, there's so many things that ultimately come back to
logistics. How do you make sure you
potentially have hot bottles that are available on the course
when the whole peloton is strung out over over a few kilometres
or doing clothing development to understand how to, you know,
improve breathability or insulation in them in in them a
harsh environment. So yeah, we really try and do
quite a lot of work around that to understand what's going on.
And I think on top of that, just something we've generally been
doing with the team is we do a lot of work to understand real
world conditions. So it's something that's been a
big project that we do around everything is we have all these
tools and techniques to, you know, to simulate in science.
We try and take out the variables to to get answers, but
we're trying to also understand how we tune them variables to
understand things moving forward.
So thermal being a massive piece, but yeah, your wind
turbulence intensities, all these different things we're
trying to understand so we can really make more informed
decisions with the tools we use and the data that we drive out
through our through our techniques.
And maybe linked to that then, So what about, you know, we've
seen a lot of people now tracking and I think there's
some brand names that are shown on certain TV show commentary,
you know, where they talk about their recovery, their sleep
recovery and nutrition, things like that.
How much of that do you think has contributed or maybe here's
the big, here's the big question.
You look at the current riders and look at them breaking
records and and seeming to go faster and faster.
How much of that do you think is down to bike technology?
So aerodynamics, how much of it is down to training and how much
of it is down to things like nutrition and sleep?
Like what? Do you see them all equal or do
you think some have are more important than others?
Yeah, I think they've all played their part in improving cycling
over the last kind of 10 years, I would say.
I mean, taking them individually, nutrition has been
a massive driver for sure. If you look at where cycling was
10 years ago and where it is now in terms of definitely all the
research around carbohydrate intake, how to increase uptake,
how to understand fueling, that's dramatically changed.
And that we really know has helped drive performance
forward. Because if you can have more
carbohydrate availability and you can oxidize more
carbohydrate, you can generate more energy.
And I think that has been a, a big push with performance.
And I think you see now that the training volumes that are able
to be sustained the the physical level within racing and and just
what you see mainly under fatigue.
I think that's the biggest thing that we've really seen a shift
is. Not only the fresh capacity of
riders, but what they can do after four or five, six hours,
what they can do after days, weeks of stage racing.
I think that a lot of that is down to really optimizing
nutrition. And you can see even since I've
been working in professional cycling, the investment from
teams around the area. You know, we have two
nutritionists, we have 4 chefs, we have a food truck, we have
nutrition sponsors, we have nutrition partners, we have
academic nutrition partners. We have data scientists that
look at all the data that we generate around nutrition.
Actually, you know, we measure hydration status.
We look at energy expenditure to make sure that we match on a day
on day, on a meal, on meal basis across, you know, a Grand Tour
for instance. And a lot of that has really
helped drive performance forward.
We see riders can train more, get sick less and perform much
better, especially under fatigue.
And a lot of that I think is down to nutrition over the last
10 years, definitely aerodynamics and equipment
development has moved forward a lot.
You know, I think there was some teams early on that kind of
clicked this. And I think, yeah, you know, it
started really on the track. I think if you look at equipment
development and where you see performance, I think British
Cycling were kind of the the real front runners of that from
probably 2000 and four, 2008 onwards on the track.
And then they're starting to understand the physics involved.
And as you know, there's such massive potential there.
The rider is, you know, 80% of probably the drag in the system.
And then what you wrap the rider in is a big part of that as
well. So it's there's a lot of
opportunities there that are now starting to be more and more
understood. And we just see that the peloton
just goes faster and faster. And for me, knowing the
relationship between power and speed is, is cubic.
It can't all come from power. You know, it's not that riders
are all of a sudden getting to the, you know, to the cube more
powerful, but actually the, you know, the, the demands are
coming down as well because we're getting more aerodynamic.
We're understanding that speed relationship.
So that's been a big driver moving forward.
And I'd say because of that, that's why as a team we're
really, really focused on the safety part as well, because we
just do so much, so many innovations to make our riders
faster, fit and stronger, but we're also then putting them at
more risk. You know, if you can go down, if
you can go down climbs 10K an hour faster now, if you can take
corners faster, if you can do this faster, that faster, we
should also look after the riders more.
So that's really why every innovation we do, we also take
on that responsibility to make sure that we try and keep them
safe as well. And I think, yeah, every team
should do that. But we take that really
seriously at Tudor Pro Cycling. Yeah, that's a very, yeah.
There's definitely a sort of hot topic, isn't it, on the
equipment versus the rider versus everything.
It's, yeah, one I guess you could dedicate an entire
conversation to. But one thing I did on that
point of maybe training, I was listening to Gary Thomas on, you
know, on his podcast and I think he was talking with Pavel
Sivakoff about like the different training and they were
talking about the sort of Team Sky where they basically just
starved themselves and and went out comparing to now Pavel was
talking about the sort of zone 2.
But I always thought it was surprising because I assume
that, OK, all the team do that anyway.
But it it sort of made clear that he was describing that
there was they sent a lot of junk miles that people would
just go out. And because they're chatting
with mates and they're drafting and they're so strong, the
riders that they were probably only in zone 1 where now they're
trying. And he says he was, he almost
starts just training on his own because it's it's impossible to
do. Is that something that you've
seen as well as a very recent shift towards this more rigorous
focus on extracting the maximum amount of all the time you're on
the bike? Yeah, it's really interesting
with training methodologies, there's, there's many ways to do
it. And I think the longer I've
worked in professional cycling, the more I've realized that it's
really tailoring it to each individual rider.
That's the most important thing. And the reason I say that is
it's, you know, they have the same demands, you know,
relative. I mean, a sprinter's obviously
different to a climber or a classics rider, but they're
endurance cyclists first of all. So there's this key kind of
physiological underpinning of what you're trying to achieve to
and then you've got these specific components on top.
But I think we're a lot of or where maybe even when I was
younger, people see training as is, is as you're training the
machine, you know, you have these inputs and you have an
output. And what we know now more and
more and what I know working with with humans is that the
input you put in doesn't always necessarily end up being the
output. And the reason being is that,
you know, training is the one lever we can adjust as a coach
or as someone working with in cycling.
But what we can't adjust is the stress on their on their
everyday life, their family, did they sleep well?
What's their nutrition like? Are they happy?
Are they depressed? There's all these different
factors that go into a human being.
And that what we understand more is that humans are very
complicated systems. They're not just, they're not
just individual inputs, but they have all this, these inputs
actually interact with each other as well.
And I think it's more about, I find tailoring the training
relative to that. So you have your idea, you have
your plan, you have your overall vision and goals and
periodization, things like that. But it's been able to to tweak
and tailor that relative to what's going on within that
rider's life. Because, you know, you might
have the best plan in the world, but if they're not eating
properly or they're stressed at home, or, you know, they're
running a second business on the side that you don't know about,
then actually your optimal training might not be correct.
Because, yeah, it's good on paper and it moves forward.
And I would say every training methodology can have its
benefits. It's something that I really
reflected on quite a lot. Now, working in different
environments and different teams, you see lots of different
ways of achieving success. And ultimately I've seen things
that, you know, maybe I wouldn't actually have done, but I've
also seen them be very successful.
And I've also started to, to, to learn and understand from, from
them experiences that you can do things in many different ways.
And yeah, some teams have certain philosophies and, and
some riders go really, really well for them philosophies and
other riders don't. And my philosophy is always to
try and make the individual rider better.
So I and I think when I look at kind of successful coaches or,
or people that I really respect, it's the ones that make all
their riders better, not just one.
And I think that's where that individualisation, that
communication with a rider, that understanding of where they're
at and tailoring their training to them is stronger rather than
just saying, OK, this is my training philosophy, we do it or
or you don't. Yeah, that's a good point.
And I guess this is what's, I guess maybe to people listening
or to watching this who are into cycling.
It's always the tricky thing because we there's always a
temptation to follow a specific guide because you hear that
somebody else does it, but you don't know whether should you
just follow it and you just need to suck it up and just, you
know, deal with the suffering, or is it just not well suited to
you and you would be better doing something else?
It's, you know, there's so much not misinformation, but there's
so many different theories out there, isn't there, that it's
hard for an amateur cyclist to really know what to follow.
It's it's. Yeah, definitely.
Sensationalized as well. I think so, especially when you,
you know, you have a full time job and a family and and
everything else and you're trying to do this as on the
side, it is really difficult. You want to try and extract as
much as you can out of it. And that's where I think it can
be difficult because professional riders, they ride
the bike, that's their full time job.
And actually the other thing they can do is they can recover
professionally. And a lot of amateurs can't do
that. And I think that's the the
challenge is you want to do what the pros are doing, but actually
you can't do the recovery part. And we know that adaptations,
they don't actually occur when you're on the bike.
The stress happens then, but the adaptations happen afterwards.
And if you can't have the adaptive processes, then maybe
the training doesn't fulfill what you want it to achieve
because you can't do the other proportion of that.
Yeah, no, that, that makes complete sense.
So what maybe going a little bit more into the, you know, the
bike side of things. Where do you see the the sort of
big performance areas nowadays? You know, is it, you know, in
the bike, the fabric, you know, the tyre choice, you know, where
some of the maybe interesting areas that that you think have
led to some gains and maybe where are sort of future areas
that people are starting to to explore now?
I think the biggest thing you can look at really is, is the
whole system approach. Like for me this is really
critical looking at the rider and all their equipment as a
whole system. The more kind of information or,
or testing I've done, what you see is if you change one
component of it, it's a cascade and everything else is
interacting with that. And if you can't just say this
helmet is fast, this skinsuit is fast, this bike is fast.
It's in what context with what rider, with what demands.
I think that that's the really kind of where I really see the
innovation happening now on that individualized level, you know,
because there is just such different demands on on them
individual user cases. So, for instance, a sprinter,
you know, we know sprinters go 7080 kilometers an hour in the
final and we know they have to have very aggressive positions
to try and put their heads in certain places.
And we know because of all that, that we need to understand
certain flow structures, certain stiffness, aerodynamics, we need
to understand vision, we need to understand how all that
interacts with each other. And we need to understand
fabrics relative to that rider at them speeds.
Whereas that is completely different.
If you look at a climber, for instance, you know, the demands
of a climber are going up, the climber probably coming down,
the climber on the other side. And if we look at the whole
system, the position, the orientation they're in, it's a
completely different system. SO1 helmet is not going to be
perfect for both. 1 skin suit's not going to be perfect for
both. 1 bike's not going to be perfect for both.
So I think what we'll see in the industry of cycling is long term
is this individualization development.
So can we build stuff on an individualized basis?
Can manufacture methods cope with that?
You know, can we find ways to really individualize it?
And I think that's where we see real benefit in terms of the
performance moving forward. Yeah, that is so interesting.
I, I must admit that that sort of aligns to some of the
findings that I found, you know, when I was working on some of
the British Cycling stuff. It's almost an unbelievably
complicated optimization problem because you know that the, the
bike, the rider, the wheel, the helmet and you, what you really
want to do is test every combination with every other
combination. And then whereas I guess a lot
of the time because of commercial reasons, partnership
reasons, you're like, hey, helmet manufacturer
independently just give me a good helmet, but you haven't
been involved in that. So with that, what you're trying
to say that you're trying to be more involved with the partners
so they can, so you're not just buying off the shelf something
they've made, but potentially it's a little bit more aligned
to your needs and how that interacts with the other bits
you have. Yeah, 100%.
It's something we've really driven forward in the last years
and it's still a continual process.
But we have what we call like reciprocal relationships with
our partners. So we really make sure that when
we select our partners, their partners that want to go on this
innovation process with us because it's not easy, you know,
it costs money, time, effort and we're really, you know demanding
of what we want. But we're also, which I think is
quite unique, we also have the capacities in house to actually
put time and resource towards them problems.
So it's not that we just knock on the door of our partner and
say, OK, we want a new bike or a new helmet.
We say no, we want to go on this project with you.
We understand the demands that we're aiming towards.
Let's do it in a collaboration. So, you know, a perfect example
could be when we were developing a new helmet and we were
developing a new helmet with a, with a new partner and we had
wind tunnel trips happening in, in, in their location.
Wind tunnel trips with our, with ourselves in the UK.
We had riders there, we had 3D peddling mannequins.
We did simulation, we did all these collaboration approaches,
thermal fit development over over over a long period of time
to really make sure that the initial product we had was as
evolved as possible in the time we had.
And yeah, and we continue to try and do that across all the
things you said, the bike, the tires, the wheels, the clothing.
It's something that we're taking ownership of internally as a
cycling team. And I think that's quite
different to maybe many other cycling teams is we invest
resource in that. You know, we have engineers, we
have an industrial designer, we have fabric experts in house
that complement the expertise of our partners to really make sure
that there's investment from our side to to tailor the products
to exactly what we need. So we really start to understand
that and move it forward and we see that that will really be our
way of moving forward and, and being at the forefront and it
takes time, but I think it's the right way to do it.
Investing in that innovation process is where we see really
critical to to our performances in the future.
And how easy or difficult is it or a barrier to get the riders
involved because you've said at the same time they're off doing
6070 race days or however long some of them do, How easy is it
to get them to come, you know, to a test or to go?
Is that a limiting factor sometimes?
Yeah, there's a few things to that.
I think the first thing we do is whenever we speak to new riders,
we always tell them about our process, that we're, you know,
we're an innovative team, that we take risks, that we push the
boundaries on these things. And that ultimately that
requires investment of time as well.
And you know, for some riders, maybe that's not what they want
from their cycling team. And therefore it's a
conversation to have early on to set expectations.
But we've also realized as we move forward that still it's,
you know, it's impractical to expect riders to be available
24/7 for the, for these learnings.
So what we really try and do is we try and leverage
methodologies that allow us to do a lot of the stuff
beforehand. So we do a lot of simulation.
We have 3D scans of the majority of our riders.
So we can do a lot of digitalization.
So we can do a lot of CFD computation.
We can do a lot of clothing optimization fit, we can do a
lot of understanding external to them even being needed.
We also create mannequins and we have mannequins of, you know,
our higher priority riders peddling mannequins that allow
us to go to the wind tunnel and test things without them being
there. So we have really high
repeatability methods. You know, it's also what we find
is with riders, I'm sure anyone working in with humans and doing
testing, as you see that it's really difficult to get reliable
data because naturally you're a human, you get tired, you get
hungry. Whereas if you have a mannequin,
you can run them for 10 hours a day and get ready for
repeatability and not have to feed them.
So it gives you a lot more scope and capacity to do that work.
But there always needs to be a validation step and that's
really important. We always make sure that all the
work we're doing loops back to either field testing or some
kind of simulation tool, be it wind tunnel track testing in the
field to validate the findings that we find from doing all this
kind of in detailed research. And for sure that costs time
from the riders. But we try and educate our
riders on why we're doing that. We, we empower them, we show
them their data. You know, I think we're really
open from that perspective. We, we give them that
information so they understand, OK, we're asking you to do this
and we've provided you this and this is the consequence.
And for the majority of riders we work with, they're really
involved in that process and they really understand it.
I think it's one of the nice things with cycling.
It's such a data rich sport that actually a lot of the cyclists
understand, you know, they understand what's they
understand what's savings, they understand speed gain.
You know, they're even some of them, you know, they understand
aerodynamics and they can quote you the equation for XYZ.
And yeah, it's definitely something that's really powerful
in cycling that that you can have that conversation and they
know how hard they're trained to try and gain 10 watts.
So when you can tell you can find it from something else that
they're usually quite grateful and willing to invest that time
in. It and do you see a shift
between the younger riders who were just coming through from
the development squads and the older riders?
Is there a has has has all of this changed?
The past 5-10 years meant that the younger riders are far more
educated than maybe the the older generation are.
Yeah, it's, that's a really, really good question.
It's something that we we see quite a lot in many different
ways. So I think generally the younger
generation are a lot more, like you said, maybe educate on it
and, and, and thoughtful of it, but I'd say sometimes also
obsessed with it, which can be quite interesting.
You know, it's sometimes they think it's a, it's a PlayStation
game and, and you know, it's a laboratory and, and, and it's,
you know, it's only this equation of numbers and, and,
and clothing and equipment and things like that.
And what you actually see is, you know, you've also got to
make decisions within a race. You've also got to be able to
tactically and technically be able to execute on a bike.
And there are things that sometimes are often overlooked,
you know, with the younger generation that that that's what
also wins your bike races. It's not just all this physics,
but actually there's a it's a sport and there's decisions and
it just we had some really interesting talks with with
Julianne. Like Julianne is a has joined
the team recently and historically, you know, he's not
a man who's obsessed with data or or insights something for
that. He's a guy who wants to race his
bike, but he also understands the value of it and he trusts
that if we say, OK, we're going to do XYZ, we're going to try to
prove it, that we're working on that in the background, you
know, and he's really open to that.
But that was one of the things that was really important when
he joined the team that we do this stuff.
But he also has that passion about racing your bike and, you
know, and educating the younger riders on tactics, technical
positioning. There are things that we also
know are super important as well.
So it's definitely an interesting time in cycling from
that regard. Yeah.
And I think that's a really good point actually, because I feel
in some ways that, you know, Team Sky arguably were the one
that really held at this shift to a more like marginal gains
obviously in data-driven, but I would argue that potentially it
turned. Maybe it was the personalities
who were in the team, but he was a little bit mechanical, a
little bit the emotion maybe went out of it a little bit,
which led to a bit of a backlash almost on some of that.
And but now you've got people like today who clearly do a lot
of the data stuff where you, you know, he does a lot of training
and the team. But it it it's perceivably seems
more impulsive and more emotional, a bit like Giuliani
Philippe. So I guess the sport has to
balance both, doesn't it? If it becomes too obsessed with
all the data and sort of mechanical stuff, then the human
side and what we love of seeing riders may sort of lose that as
well. So I guess maybe that's the the
balance isn't? It definitely, it's
storytelling, you know, it's people, it's, it's, and I think
the same thing happened with F1, you know, it's, it's, it's
finding a way for people to to build them emotional
relationships, to tell these stories, these experiences.
That's just as important as all the tech that allows for them
things to happen, you know. So it's definitely this, this
balance for sure. Yeah, One thing that I would
love to see, and I, I assume it's been discussed and maybe
it's just not happened for various reasons, is I find the
riders are so good at masking their pain that it's, you don't
always know. And as a sort of more geeky
person, I would love, and I know they've started to do this a
little bit, but I would love to have their like body
temperature, their heart rate, their power, like in real time.
So I could sort of see how much they're suffering almost, you
know, because sometimes you see somebody and you think they're
doing great and then they suddenly just go and you think,
surely, you know, he's felt that for a while, but he's just
hidden it, you know? Do you know what I'm talking
about? I don't know.
The data could be. Used to make the sport more
interactive in a way. It's a really good point and
it's something, you know, as a, as Tudor and, and people I speak
to have thought about a lot. It's, it's how do you improve
that viewer engagement? You know, can you give more
insights to allow, to allow for a better experience?
And I think it's something that F1 did over the last, you know,
5 or 10 years with cameras and, and having more of the, the
radio on on on the TV and things like that.
I think them things are that they're the really nice insights
that you gather and you think, oh, OK, yeah, that, you know, I
have this unique insight on what's happening in the F1 car.
And I think cycling can, can definitely move forward.
There are there are some initiatives, there's initiative
called Velon, which is kind of a set a separate company that kind
of is attached to certain races and they have like more data
insights and they share certain insights they have in, you know,
in video footage of the races. But apart from that, it's quite
controlled from the UCI. So it's not something a team
could do individually. You know, it's not like we could
put cameras on every bike and release it to the world.
It's very restrictive from that perspective.
So it would take a from a UCI level from an organization to,
to kind of take it forward. But for me, it's something that
should definitely be done. And if it's done on a level
playing field, there's no negative consequence of that.
If everyone has to have a camera, then it's the same, you
know, and then you get all these insights.
So no, I will be definitely for that.
So maybe 1 you, you mentioned a little bit and maybe this is
teeing a little bit to some of the AI or machine learning side
of things, but maybe first on the strategy side.
So you've talked a lot about nutrition, bike design, how much
data can be used to optimize strategy?
You know, when someone should try, because sometimes I watch a
race and I see somebody try to break away and I think surely
there's an optimum power for them to just get that break, you
know, to the elastic to get. And you think, oh, if they could
have just gone for another 10 seconds, maybe they would have
actually made it. Is there any way that you can
look at that sort of more strategy side of things with the
data-driven sport as it is now? Yeah, it's something I think a
lot of teams are are trying to do and excited about.
Like I said, cyclins are very data rich sports.
So we have a lot of data. You know, we have second by
second data on all our riders for maybe 1000 hours of training
a year for many, many years. So we have a lot of data there
and I think people are now starting to harness it.
We definitely have quite a few projects that we look at, you
know, we try and look at certain riders.
Can they make it in certain races, you know, maybe sprinters
for instance, can they pass certain climbs?
What's the probability of chances of success to get to a
certain point? Yeah.
Do we expect a breakaway or not? I think it's quite an
interesting one. Do we expect it to to succeed?
Should we should we participate in that on certain stages?
I think there's, there's lots of things that can be done.
There's a lot of stuff around race choice and, and picking
certain races for certain riders, understanding where
their kind of potential is, you know, for, for results.
So yeah, there's definitely a lot of optimization for, for
those kind of data insights from data that's driven there.
And then I think also with AI and, and the other kind of
emerging techniques, there's, there's lots of stuff to be done
around, around all the CFD computation stuff that we do.
We've found that really in the earlier processes of that, but
every time we run a simulation, every time we generate some
data, we know that there could be long term potential insights
in that data. So it's really about
understanding how to, to sequence the store to, to, to
evolve to know that maybe, you know, maybe not now, but in one
year, 2 year, five years, there's, there's insights that
can be gathered from that. And I think it's, yeah, making
sure you're in the the right place now to set them things up
so that in the future it is definitely a possibilities,
that's for sure. So would it be fair to say that
probably cycling has for the past, you know, 2-3, four years
been moving far more to a data-driven attack, But we're,
we're only just entering now the age of really AI for it.
That would it be fair to say that most of cycling is probably
always just now really getting into potential.
So that could be something in the coming years that that could
be used because as we talked about that sort of design
optimization, you know, you've got so many different choices
that seems or even logistics, I guess AI is a classic tool for
optimizing things. Yeah, yeah, it definitely is
something that I think we'll see more and more of.
I think the sport itself is getting more professional, more
funding. It's having, you know, more
people like myself working sport, you know, kind of sitting
in between the lines of of scientists that are kind of
integrated. And yeah, I'd say most of the
highest level teams now are starting to understand that and
invest some of their resource in that and not just in better
riders or, you know, or things like that.
So what how about for for Tudor in particular, what does the,
the sort of future hold? What, what's the big target, I
guess this year and the coming years that that is driving all
this towards? Do you have some very specific
things that the team is trying to, you know, focus on and and
and succeed? Yeah, I think as a team, I mean
we have, we have quite a lot of strategy.
I think in terms of where we want to go.
We're we're really fortunate that we're a long term team.
We have a long term vision and and a sustainable long term
vision, which I think is quite unique in cycling.
I think the first priority of the team is really to be in a
position to allow us to have the full race calendar.
So for people who don't understand cycling, if you're
not a World Tour team, if you don't want the top 18 teams,
then essentially you're kind of at the will of the race
organizers to invite you to the biggest races.
So we know if we achieve a certain rating every year, being
one of what's called the top 2 pro teams, then that will allow
us to have a full race calendar. And then once we have a full
race calendar, it then opens up all the opportunities in terms
of where we want to go and how we want to do stuff at the
moment. Because we're a brand new team,
we have to rely on them invitations, which can make
planning and strategy quite challenging sometimes.
So that's our first real goal. And really the long term goal,
especially from my perspective is around the innovation team is
really to just be a world leading innovation team with
regards to performance. So a safety, aerodynamics,
thermal from all the opportunities, having this whole
system, individualized approach around key riders, looking at
them as a whole system is really where the next, you know, 5-10
years look like. And we can really do that
ultimately, because we have a sustainable platform to launch
from. You know, it's, I can imagine
it's quite hard if you're in a team that's unstable to think,
you know, I'm going to do this now and it might not pay off in
five years, but we, we're in a real good place that we can do
that. And I think that really allows
us to be a front runner in the future and really invest in this
kind of data-driven science driven approach.
So maybe turning maybe towards the end of the of this chat,
towards the top of that, I think is I personally am always
interested in which is the advice for people and engineers
wanting to get into the sport. You know, you, you came through
the PhD route and then you, you know, you sort of work towards,
you say like different sports and then track and then thing,
you know, looking back, what sort of advice?
Maybe let's break it down from a is it?
Yeah, well, first of all, high level advice and then maybe we
can pick apart some stuff. Yeah, I think about this a lot.
I I really try and, yeah, take responsibility on myself to, to
look back at, you know, when I was younger and what were the
reasons why I, I'm in the fortunate position I am now.
And I really try and give back to that because for me, some of
the things I really reflect on is I had really good mentors.
Like I had people who went through that process and really
allowed me to connect, to discuss, to learn, to evolve,
grow. And I think that was fundamental
to where I am today, having them mentorships.
If it's just having a coffee, picking the phone up, what do
you think about this? Oh, I have a friend who does
this. You know, why don't you have
some conversations? I think that I'd really
encourage that spirit of, you know, mentorship is really
important and I think it's responsible both for young
practitioners, but also for experienced practitioners like
myself to, to also give back, I think is really important.
I think the other thing is work ethic and, and, and doing your
time like it's something that I really, you know, pride myself
on and was something that really allowed me to move forward.
You know, I was the first person to say yes to a volunteer
opportunity to fill up bottles on the side of a rugby pitch,
you know, or if it was to go to a swim meet in, in, you know,
wherever and at 6:00 AM in the morning, just to, to be embedded
within sport opportunities. And I didn't, and I really tried
to take on as many opportunities as I could when I was younger
just to see and feel and understand why I wanted to work
in professional sport. And that goes a long way because
when people see you're just willing to, to say yes and, and
to, to understand and learn, I think can be really valuable.
And, and that's a trait that I really look for in people.
I look for that kind of willing spirit.
I think a lot of people in my experience, you can train them
for the, for the skills that you need, but actually the, the
character and personality of someone is kind of ingrained.
And I think if you can show that, you know, you're willing
to, to work, to, to listen to, to put, to put effort in, to be
passionate about something. I, I go for that any day over
someone who has, you know, five years experience of doing the
job already, You know, I really look for, for that.
So that would be some of the things I would say mentorship
really and and that kind of spirit of just willing to, to
do. And what about from a practical
point of view? What sort of are you looking
more for like engineers, more for sports science, more for
like data science? Is there certain sort of skill
sets and maybe degrees that put you, I guess traditionally
sports science would have been the route in to a sport.
Is that still the case or do you think it's more about like
engineering and data science now?
I'd say historically you're correct.
It was sports science and, and really probably was, yeah, the
first investment I'd say from professionals, at least in
cycling was sports science and understanding sports derived
things, physiologists. And what you saw is then people
generally then sat like myself across many spectrums.
You know, we did data science, we did performance analysis.
We kind of did the bits that we did some nutrition, maybe we did
different things to really allow performance to move forward and
having that generalized skill set was probably the weigh in.
I'd say, you know, 5 or 10 years ago, I'd say now sport within
cycle in particular, there's enough investment and
understanding that these really specified roles are coming in
and become really important. And I think for people who have
them specific skills and their passion for sport, there's some
really unique opportunities growing.
So for instance, data science, you know, I, I know a bit of, of
data science, but not to the level of a data scientist.
And I think if you can come in with them skills, but also the
conceptual understanding of cycling, you, there's massive
potential for that in the future.
And the same with engineers, you know, having aerodynamic
engineers, design engineers, Mechanical Engineers that have
this desire to work in cycling and this conceptual
understanding of cycling, I see more and more opportunities for
them either within professional teams or within partners that
work with teams. And you see that's definitely a
growing field now really that high level science within,
within sport and particularly with cycling, it's more and more
opportunities. And is there are there any
recommendations? You know, when people sometimes
ask me about Formula One, sometimes I say, OK, well if you
can't get into Formula One, try and do with a lower quote UN
quote, lower formula first just to get a practice spin.
Is that something people can do with cycling?
Or is that a slight almost gap that you know, it's either
you've done a university course or you work for a cycling team,
but how do you get the experience to know?
Is there any things that you're aware of that people can clue
themselves up on? Cycling Pacific Knowledge.
Yeah, yes, it's definitely difficult to make that bridge
like you said, I'd say 1 The thing that I've seen successful
people do is using the opportunities they have through
their time as a student to allow for opportunities to interact
with with professional sports. So, you know, if you're an
undergraduate or a master's student and you know, you have
to do a placement or you have to do a final year project, trying
to drive that final year project in a direction where you can
interact with a professional team is a really nice way.
Because if you can approach them and say, you know, I need to do
200 hours of XYZI, need to do simulation, I need to do winter
tests, I need to do in the field research on this topic.
And I think it's really interesting for you and we can
shape the question to answer your problems.
They're the kind of things that would get me really excited, you
know, students that have that initiative, that have that
capacity to drive to drive this thing forward.
And it's a, you know, it can be a three month interview.
And even within our team, we have one member that came
directly from that kind of process.
You know, was it showed initiative, stepped through it
as a as a master's student and really secured an opportunity
straight from graduating in, in professional sport because he
showed that initiative to yeah on, on how to move, move himself
forward. So I'd say really try and shape
the experiences you have towards sport and, and bring a question
and A and a solution rather than just, you know, asking for
experience. I think that's something that's
can really help you break into professional sport and, and also
don't worry when you get a no, you know, I think if I remember
my initial period, I apply for so many jobs opportunities and,
and yeah, and, and sometimes it's not the right time, the
right place and, and that's completely fine.
And, and I really believe they shape you to the person you are,
you know, and, and yeah, don't, don't give up when it, when it
becomes difficult. I think that's just something
that really allows you to to break into difficult industry.
No, that's, that's a great piece of advice.
And no, I, I actually, I mean the big picture, I always, and I
guess the reason why I, we're so keen to speak to you and, and
generally talk about cycling is I feel like engineering or sort
of sports side of engineering almost is some people turn away
from engineering because it's almost perceived as not being
exciting or it's not being fun and they see football or
whatever or, or second as being fun.
And I suppose one of the things I've always been a fan of is
that if you can link those two things, then it's like you have
the pleasure of working on something that you actually
like. And I think Formula One was
traditionally always that thing. But I think it's it, it has,
it's just hard to get into. That's just the one.
And there are so many aerodynamicists working in a
team 50, I don't know, maybe 70 that you're just working on, you
know, the equivalent of optimizing a spoke on a wheel,
let's say, where I guess if they work for someone like your
company, they're going to be working the whole thing
probably. So it's like it's more rewarding
maybe actually to sort of go into a cycling thing maybe than
Formula One in a way. So it's almost, maybe I'm
encouraging if there's people listening to maybe consider
getting into the sort of cycling side of engineering because it
could be more fulfilling potentially than your
traditional Formula One. Yeah, it definitely offers that
opportunity to go through the whole process as well.
You know, it is a sport. We, you know, we're much less
budget, we're more, you know, agile with our resource.
And yeah, if you're in error analysis within cycling, you
work everything from, you know, conceptual CFD all the way to to
real world validation with a human being.
And you're you get to have all them touch points across that
that piece. And I think it makes you a much
better practitioner when it's like that, you know, when you
can understand from really complex kind of, you know,
fundamentals all the way down to convincing a human being of the
work you're doing and getting their feedback and having a
holistic approach. That to me is what gets me out
of bed every day. You know, I get to do this
really complex science, but actually apply it and then
ultimately seeing it in in competition and, you know,
watching it on TV or be in their present.
And, you know, having your heart rate at 180 beats a minute when
when they're going into a final and thinking, yeah, I've played
a small part in that. That's, that's a really nice
feeling. And I would definitely encourage
people who are interested to, yeah, to reach out and and to
look at opportunities inside because it's definitely a
growing space moving forward. Great.
Well, yeah, thanks so much Kurt, for for for chatting today.
I'm hoping people, you know, got the same that I have this, which
is just this excitement, I guess for for cycling and you know,
Petuda, I think it's great when there's these new relatively new
teams coming in trying to sort of shake it up.
And I think it's it's good because it makes the more
established teams sort of whereas they've got to shake up
and it. And it's good also for people
who wanted to get into the sport, that there's more
companies, more jobs. So yeah, thank you so much for
speaking and educating us all on on what it's like to be a Pro
Cycling team. Perfect.
Thanks. Now.