1
00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:02,400
Hi, and welcome to the Neil
Ashton Podcast.

2
00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:05,920
In each episode, we explained
some of the fascinating ways

3
00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:09,080
that science and engineering are
changing the world around us.

4
00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:12,760
We talked to leading engineers
from elite level sports like

5
00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:16,920
cycling and Formula One to some
of the world's top academics to

6
00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:21,000
understand how fluid dynamics,
machine learning, supercomputing

7
00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:23,000
are bringing in a new era of
discovery.

8
00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:27,080
We also hear some of their life
stories, their career advice.

9
00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:30,080
The lessons they've learned on
the way that I hope will be

10
00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:33,840
helpful to you too.
So sit back and enjoy this

11
00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:41,160
episode.
Hi, and welcome back to the Neil

12
00:00:41,160 --> 00:00:44,840
Ashton Podcast.
Today's episode is one that is

13
00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:49,720
focusing on a topic that I think
is interesting to so many people

14
00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:53,520
and that is on supersonic
flight, supersonic travel.

15
00:00:54,680 --> 00:01:01,440
I'm speaking to Peter Cohen, who
is a who is a legend within NASA

16
00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:05,360
for all that he's done for for
the supersonic program over the

17
00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:10,800
past three decades.
And I wanted to speak to him

18
00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:14,560
firstly because when I spoke to
some to some colleagues and

19
00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:17,800
people I work with at NASA, they
all recommended to speak to

20
00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:21,320
Peter as he is a fountain of
knowledge on this program.

21
00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:26,800
We didn't really get into
actually a focus on him himself.

22
00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:29,800
This was more of a topic on the
NASA program.

23
00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:34,080
Although people tell me that he
is a private pilot and has some

24
00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:37,080
amazing stories to tell.
But in, in this particular

25
00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:41,000
episode, we focus more on on the
actual NASA programs and what

26
00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:42,840
they're doing.
And, and that is absolutely

27
00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:47,280
fascinating.
We start the conversation going

28
00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:51,920
back and looking at how, how did
we get to Concorde, you know,

29
00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:55,040
that incredible aircraft that
was the first to go supersonic

30
00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:59,640
for, you know, passenger travel.
And then talking, you know, why,

31
00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:02,360
why did it stop?
What was the commercial reasons?

32
00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:05,960
What was the technical reasons?
And then we transition into what

33
00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:08,039
makes supersonic travel
difficult?

34
00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:11,000
What are the engineering
challenges from a noise

35
00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:13,600
perspective, from a regulatory
perspective, from an

36
00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:19,080
aerodynamics perspective, and
going through step by step in

37
00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:22,080
that process.
And, and for anybody here who is

38
00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:24,440
an engineer, I think you'll find
that particularly interesting

39
00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:28,120
talking about the specifics of
how they overcame some of the

40
00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:32,960
issues with the Sonic boom.
And then we start to go through

41
00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:35,640
and talk on the Pacific Quest
program.

42
00:02:35,640 --> 00:02:40,600
So this is NASA's project to
develop a prototype, the X59

43
00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:43,400
aircraft that is currently in
the process of being built.

44
00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:47,520
That will be a a test to to
essentially validate all the

45
00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:51,440
work that's been done and to
give data to the aviation

46
00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:54,560
authorities to be able to set
the regulatory environment for

47
00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:58,080
commercial entities to go and
build and hopefully release

48
00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:01,160
these aircraft.
So we're at a really interesting

49
00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:03,440
time.
This project has been going on

50
00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:05,800
for quite a while and it feels
like we're getting very close

51
00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:09,360
now to some very key tests that
will dictate this.

52
00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:13,280
And we finish off with some
discussion around, of course,

53
00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:15,720
hypersonic travel.
Of course, if you can do

54
00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:18,440
supersonic, the logical question
is, couldn't you do hypersonic?

55
00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:22,440
And then at the end, as I ask
most people on this podcast,

56
00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:25,680
some sort of words of wisdom, I
guess, to to people who are

57
00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:28,320
aspiring aeronautics
professionals.

58
00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:32,160
So this for me was personally
one of the really interesting

59
00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:34,120
episodes.
I love the idea of supersonic

60
00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:38,440
travel and Peter is such a great
communicator and it was an honor

61
00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:41,800
to to have him on the.
So sit back and enjoy this

62
00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:44,640
episode with Peter Cohen on
supersonic travel.

63
00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:49,280
So maybe we could begin.
I mean, this is, I think for

64
00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:53,200
most people a fascinating topic.
But probably the one thing that

65
00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:56,160
people think of when we talk
about supersonic travel is

66
00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:59,360
Concorde.
So maybe as a bit of a starter,

67
00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:03,160
could you, maybe, I know this is
difficult, summarize the history

68
00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:06,840
of supersonic travel.
How did we get to the Concorde

69
00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:09,640
program?
Sure.

70
00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:12,320
It's it's it's really is it?
It actually is a fascinating

71
00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:16,240
history.
I mean, question 1947, we had

72
00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:22,040
the first supersonic flight, the
Bell X1 out at what it was in

73
00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:30,040
Murak or Edwards Air Force Base.
And you know, somebody heard of

74
00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:34,720
Sonic boom then maybe.
So that's a little interesting

75
00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:42,000
history, but you know, from
there very rapid development of

76
00:04:42,280 --> 00:04:45,360
supersonic military aircraft.
You know, in the US we had the

77
00:04:45,840 --> 00:04:49,040
Century series fighters.
But you know, in in Britain it

78
00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:52,920
was, they were, it was the
Lightning and other supersonic

79
00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:55,680
aircraft.
And so supersonic flight became

80
00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:59,040
pretty common pretty quickly in
the 1950s.

81
00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:03,240
And, you know, pretty much as
soon as the basics were

82
00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:05,160
understood, people started
thinking about, well, we should

83
00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:08,480
have, you know, the next step
in, in supersonic travel, in

84
00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:10,160
travel should be supersonic
travel.

85
00:05:11,280 --> 00:05:16,320
So there were studies done in
all all over the world, really.

86
00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:18,240
But, you know, because there
were English, the English

87
00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:21,800
studies sued and, and British
Aerospace began working on

88
00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:27,360
designs and, you know,
eventually came to the, the

89
00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:29,960
common program, the, the
English, you know, the British

90
00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:32,600
French program to build the
Concorde.

91
00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:39,840
So, you know, along that way,
along the way, as supersonic

92
00:05:39,840 --> 00:05:42,600
flight became more popular, you
know, initially Sonic booms were

93
00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,600
kind of a novelty.
You know, they'd do them at air

94
00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:48,120
shows and people would get all
excited about them.

95
00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:52,560
But you know, as cop, as the
airplanes began to use training

96
00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:55,320
more and more often, you started
having complaints of damage and,

97
00:05:57,160 --> 00:05:58,800
you know, noise, noise
complaints.

98
00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:02,960
And you know when people, when
some people really started to

99
00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:06,360
think about.
You know, regular supersonic

100
00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:09,040
operations, I think they were
thinking of, we really were

101
00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:12,160
thinking about, you know, the
entire air transportation market

102
00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:15,600
would become supersonic and
people would begin to think

103
00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,240
about the number of overflights
that that would involve.

104
00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:21,960
The number of Sonic boom
exposures that that people

105
00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:25,640
would, you know, would hear
would become would become a

106
00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:26,520
problem.
So.

107
00:06:26,840 --> 00:06:32,520
It led to a number of studies.
Which involves community tests

108
00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:35,200
of people's response to Sonic
boom.

109
00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:39,120
And most notably, there was a, a
very long test with many, many

110
00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:44,560
exposures done in Oklahoma City
in the mid 1960s, but was

111
00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:47,560
actually sponsored by the, by
the USFAA.

112
00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:53,120
And, you know, it became quite
apparent that regular Sonic boom

113
00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:59,240
exposure would not be, would not
be, you know, you know, would

114
00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:02,080
not be tolerable.
So as Concorde development

115
00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:05,520
continued, you know, we also had
the USSST program and that's

116
00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:10,480
really what drove a lot of the
the Sonic boom testing in the US

117
00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:14,760
was trying to understand the.
Impact of the the USSST which

118
00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:17,840
was going to be much bigger and
and potentially much louder in

119
00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:19,520
terms of Sonic boom than the
Concorde.

120
00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:25,680
So eventually, you know,
Concorde did fly, but in, and I

121
00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:30,880
think it was 1968, maybe 1969
was was first flight commercial

122
00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:35,240
service started in 76.
But in between those two times

123
00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:40,240
the FAA put in a ban on
supersonic flight over land.

124
00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:44,120
They couldn't they there was
that idea that if you could

125
00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:46,840
quiet the boom enough, you
could, you could fly over land

126
00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:49,760
supersonic, but they didn't know
what how quiet it would need to

127
00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:51,560
be.
So eventually they just said,

128
00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:55,680
you know, no, no Sonic, no, no
supersonic flight means no Sonic

129
00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:57,520
booms means nobody's going to
get annoyed.

130
00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:03,600
So that, that was in 19, 1973
that that ban was put in place

131
00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:08,000
internationally.
There are other countries that

132
00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:10,960
ban supersonic flight, but
pretty much everybody sticks to

133
00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:15,680
the what the international Civil
Aviation agreed to was they

134
00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:19,240
didn't put in a law, but they
or, or a standard, but they said

135
00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:25,600
nobody should experience a, a
negative impact, an unacceptable

136
00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:28,720
situation as they called it, due
to Sonic boom noise.

137
00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:32,679
So, you know, so by the mid
1970s we had, we had Concorde

138
00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:37,679
operations on a very limited
scale and we had all the rules

139
00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:41,919
put in place and that that, that
that continued into the two

140
00:08:41,919 --> 00:08:44,800
2000s when Concorde operation
ceased.

141
00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:50,400
And but the research and, and
trying to understand how to

142
00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:53,720
affect the Sonic boom, how to
make it quieter.

143
00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:56,960
And you know, that continued all
along through a number of

144
00:08:56,960 --> 00:09:02,920
programs.
So was it the case that it was

145
00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:07,240
almost a shock to the Concorde
developers to have this ban

146
00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:12,240
because from what I guess it was
imposed after the aircraft had

147
00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:15,560
essentially been designed, were
was the assumption that they

148
00:09:15,560 --> 00:09:18,360
would be allowed to fly
anywhere?

149
00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:22,600
And then when they put that ban
in, it was almost, yeah, too

150
00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:25,400
late to really change the
fundamental design or

151
00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:28,280
principles.
Yeah, there's a lot, There's a

152
00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:31,280
lot to that actually.
You know, I think, I think

153
00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:35,480
everybody kind, you know, in the
early development of supersonic

154
00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:39,400
aircraft, you know, there was
kind of the there was very much

155
00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:42,600
kind of this is in the US, but
as globally as well.

156
00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:44,880
You know, people thought, you
know, technology advancement,

157
00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:48,440
all technology advancement was
good and that in the 60s that

158
00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:52,040
changed.
And Sonic the, the advent of

159
00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:55,040
Sonic boom, you know, the
possibility of, of regular

160
00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:59,000
exposure to Sonic boom was a
part of that, that change.

161
00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:06,960
So, you know, certainly the US
manufacturers and and.

162
00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:10,960
British Aerospace and and
aerospace Yao, you know, they,

163
00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:13,960
they, they expected that they
would fly over land supersonic

164
00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:16,960
and that the airplanes would be
used as.

165
00:10:17,560 --> 00:10:22,120
As regular air transport so.
I don't know if it was a.

166
00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:26,360
Shock, you know, but but I'm
sure they began to realize that

167
00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:29,640
sentiment was building against,
you know, exposing people to

168
00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:33,080
this new sound and it
definitely, you know, it

169
00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:35,680
definitely hurt the market, you
know, for the aircraft.

170
00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:39,800
I yeah, I suppose what I'm
getting to because my second

171
00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:44,120
question was really why, Why did
Concord ultimately stop and and

172
00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:47,760
fail in some extent?
And I'm just wondering to that

173
00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:51,240
point, was it an economic
reason?

174
00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:56,800
Was it a technology reason?
And is there anything that is

175
00:10:56,800 --> 00:10:59,160
essentially because they
couldn't fly over land, they

176
00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:03,520
just destroyed the economic
model and what what caused

177
00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:08,840
Concorde essentially to?
To, you know, not I've, I've

178
00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:11,680
studied, I haven't really
studied the, the marketing of

179
00:11:11,680 --> 00:11:13,320
it, but you know, there's a
couple of things.

180
00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:18,800
You know, one of the things that
that NASA really believes and,

181
00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:20,920
and kind of the supersonic
community believes that if

182
00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:24,040
you're going to have regular
supersonic air transportation,

183
00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:28,360
you have to the airlines have to
be able to operate the airplane

184
00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:30,000
as they would any other
airplane.

185
00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:35,280
So limiting it to just certain
over water routes limits the

186
00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:37,720
market and limits the
effectiveness of the airplane.

187
00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:42,600
So that was a definite strike
against, you know, Concorde.

188
00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:47,160
It was, you know, it was a
marvel, you know, to, you know,

189
00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:50,760
again, you know, essentially the
design was pretty much in place.

190
00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:54,240
You know, a few years after the
first supersonic flight through

191
00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:56,920
head of supersonic airliner
fantastic.

192
00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:01,000
But you know, so the technology
that was incorporated in it in

193
00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:06,440
it was was somewhat immature for
airliner technology.

194
00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:09,440
And then we had, you know, we
had a couple of fuel crises and

195
00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:12,000
then, you know, after the, after
the accident.

196
00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:15,280
There was a, there was a
downturn, another economic

197
00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:18,800
downturn, which you know, kind
of limited the operation.

198
00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:23,440
So eventually, you know, being
able to continue an operation

199
00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:27,640
with, with such such a small
number of aircraft serving such

200
00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:31,080
a small market, I think you
know, the, the airline's best,

201
00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:34,600
you know, but basically it was
not, it was not economically

202
00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:38,600
viable for them to continue so.
There was regulation, there was

203
00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:40,760
technology and there was
economics.

204
00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:44,400
That all went into, I think, the
end of the the Concorde's

205
00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:46,720
commercial operation.
Yeah, it is.

206
00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:50,640
I've, I've been on Concorde, not
when he was flying, but in the

207
00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:57,680
museum and I'm always amazed at
how small it is, how tight the

208
00:12:57,680 --> 00:13:02,160
seats are compared now you know,
to, to to an aircraft how very

209
00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:04,480
and obviously how expensive the,
the tickets were.

210
00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:10,240
So it was, yeah, I guess as you
say it was, it was a novelty for

211
00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:11,600
sure.
And I'm sure that helped for a

212
00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:14,920
while.
But I guess it would be

213
00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:16,920
interesting even if it didn't
stop for that reason.

214
00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:20,120
Would, would there be the
pressure because of the I guess

215
00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:23,680
now like first class travel is
so much about luxury and, and

216
00:13:23,680 --> 00:13:26,640
the size of the cabins and all
this and you go into Concorde

217
00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:31,120
and you're in this tiny little.
Seat well, that's an interesting

218
00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:35,880
again, NASA does studies and
we're we're we talk to companies

219
00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:40,080
that do studies and that that's
a factor.

220
00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:44,000
But you know, you look at, you
know when given the opportunity

221
00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:50,000
to get there sooner, most people
will choose sooner in in the

222
00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:51,480
long run, so.
Yeah.

223
00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:56,080
I from NASA's perspective,
we're, we're NASA's perspective,

224
00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:59,080
you know, from the big picture
for NASA, we're trying to

225
00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:03,960
innovate and do things that
improve air travel for, you

226
00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:05,880
know, for the, for the traveling
public.

227
00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:09,000
And so our mantra is kind of,
you know, yeah, getting there

228
00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:13,360
faster, yeah, over long
distances is, is a marked

229
00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:17,200
improvement in the experience of
the, the, the air traveler.

230
00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:20,720
So, you know, that's if we can
do that in a way that is

231
00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:25,960
affordable, sustainable, and,
you know, acceptable,

232
00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:29,520
environmentally acceptable, then
if if we can put those

233
00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:32,480
technologies in place, then you
know, there's a market there

234
00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:37,280
that would definitely be of
interest to manufacturers.

235
00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:42,200
I mean, it's for sure, I mean,
I, I travel quite a lot to the

236
00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:45,400
US for conferences or for
meetings.

237
00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:49,240
And there is no doubt that the
length of time it takes to

238
00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:54,920
travel from Europe to the USI
think does limit how closely

239
00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:56,600
those countries can work
together.

240
00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:59,880
Whereas I know that my US
colleagues who have to fly from,

241
00:14:59,880 --> 00:15:03,120
let's say, California to
Washington, it's still a six

242
00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:06,440
hour flight.
But anything I think less than 5

243
00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:11,720
or 6 hours is a different
psychological, different jet lag

244
00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:15,360
different, just everything
compared to 10 hours or, you

245
00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:19,280
know, 8 or 10 hours.
So I can totally see why the

246
00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:23,080
increasing business or or
closeness that I'm sure there's

247
00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:26,800
economic benefits from making
air travel faster, you know,

248
00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:32,200
promote people to maybe, yeah,
stay in touch more easily.

249
00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:35,040
Yeah, that's, that's, you know,
again, that's kind of NASA's

250
00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:38,200
part of NASA's vision is, you
know, it it, it makes a smaller

251
00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:42,560
world if you can get there in in
half the time.

252
00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:47,920
Yeah.
So what what the high level as

253
00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:50,680
we go towards speaking about
the, you know, the NASA

254
00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:54,320
programs, could you maybe just
explain to people the high level

255
00:15:54,320 --> 00:16:01,000
factors that makes supersonic
passenger jets technologically

256
00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:03,560
challenging?
What is it about the nature of

257
00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:06,440
supersonic travel?
A challenge from a noise point

258
00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:10,760
of view, From a fuel efficiency
compared to transonic aircraft?

259
00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:17,040
Well, I mean the the so yeah, so
we, we look at we look at as

260
00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:20,400
there are barriers, you know,
that need to be overcome to make

261
00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:25,160
supersonic travel, you know, as
I said, you know, economically

262
00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:28,680
viable and and environmentally
acceptable.

263
00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:31,200
So we kind of lumped them into
categories.

264
00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:34,240
One of them is Sonic boom.
You know, we have to be able to

265
00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:36,560
fly over land without disturbing
people.

266
00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:41,280
So we can talk a little bit more
about about how we do that.

267
00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:44,560
But, you know, just right now.
So the airplane needs to be

268
00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:49,760
shaped to to reduce the sound of
the Sonic boom.

269
00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:53,640
And that that's not a whole lot
different from, you know, the

270
00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:56,720
what a supersonic, what Concorde
would look like.

271
00:16:56,720 --> 00:17:02,760
But there are some things, you
know, to go faster obviously

272
00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:05,240
requires more energy.
So, you know, there's no,

273
00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:07,839
there's no getting around the
fact that it needs more fuel.

274
00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:14,040
So but balancing, you know, the
fuel burn at high speed versus

275
00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:17,839
the fuel burn at at low speed
and getting that that that

276
00:17:17,839 --> 00:17:21,760
integrated design that.
Is efficient as possible, burns

277
00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:24,640
as less fuel but as little fuel
as possible across the speed

278
00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:27,880
regime.
That's, that's a key technology

279
00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:34,120
challenge to one of the things
that that, yeah, is, is maybe

280
00:17:34,120 --> 00:17:38,120
people don't realize is, you
know, current subsonic air

281
00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:41,240
airplanes have those great big
turbofan engines.

282
00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:46,840
So they're accelerating a lot of
air, just a small amount to

283
00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:49,080
create the thrust that they
need.

284
00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:53,040
And that's, that's both
efficient and quiet at subsonic

285
00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:56,480
speeds.
As you get to higher speeds, you

286
00:17:56,480 --> 00:18:00,800
need your jet has to be faster,
you need to accelerate less air

287
00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:04,600
more, you know to create the
thrust that you need to go

288
00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:09,080
supersonic speed.
So you can't have a high bypass

289
00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:10,960
turbofan.
So coming up with an engine

290
00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:15,280
design that is again matches the
the requirements of low speed

291
00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:19,760
and high speed, but is also for
take off and.

292
00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:24,080
Landing can can.
Effectively operate quietly so

293
00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:27,920
with the lowest jet velocity you
know, the, the speed the, the

294
00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:32,560
jet coming out of the tailpipe
as, as you can so that that

295
00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:38,440
requires some unique engine
design emissions is a problem.

296
00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:42,480
You know that the, the, the
Mach, the Mach number of the

297
00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:44,760
airplane, the higher the Mach
number, the higher you fly.

298
00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:48,240
Eventually you're, you're up in
the stratosphere where the

299
00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:52,960
emissions of the engine can have
a magnified effect on, on the

300
00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:57,920
ozone layer and the, you know,
the, the, the, the quality of

301
00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:02,560
the atmosphere.
So paying attention to the, the,

302
00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:07,640
how the fuel is burned in the
engine, the combustion process

303
00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:11,960
and making a, a burner, a
combustor in the airplane that

304
00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:15,920
is, that is as creates as little
emissions as possible.

305
00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:19,000
Is, is, is a major challenge for
supersonic aircraft.

306
00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:23,600
If we go back into the 1990s
when there was the High Speed

307
00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:27,120
research program, emissions was
one of the big focuses.

308
00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:31,400
Of that effort and the
technology that kind of found

309
00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:40,000
its start in that program is now
in a lot of the engines that you

310
00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:41,440
see on subsonic.
Airplanes.

311
00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:42,920
So it's kind of made full
circle.

312
00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:45,440
And now we're.
Looking at it again, can we, can

313
00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:51,040
we improve it even more to get a
big, a bigger impact if we start

314
00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:55,200
using those on the, on
supersonic aircraft again?

315
00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:59,080
So there's that and there's
operations, you know, how do

316
00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:01,880
you, you operate the airplane?
How do you mix the, the fleet

317
00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:06,200
together so that supersonic
aircraft can fly as fast as it

318
00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:11,200
can for as long as it can
without having an impact on, on

319
00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:13,760
the, on the subsonic of the
subsonic traffic.

320
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,760
So there's, there's a lot of,
there's a lot of technology

321
00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:21,040
factors.
You know that that that that

322
00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:24,200
need to be addressed airport
noise.

323
00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:29,960
Sonic boom and emissions are
kind of the three real barriers

324
00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:33,640
to actually opening the market.
I think you know to to even a

325
00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:37,920
supersonic business aircraft.
Well, I'm glad you mentioned

326
00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:41,280
that because that was one of the
things I was to ask you about

327
00:20:42,120 --> 00:20:45,600
from a, you know, conceptual
design point of view.

328
00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:48,960
When you do the numbers and you
figure out the maps on, you

329
00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:52,200
know, what's the, the best size
or how many passengers can you

330
00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,480
put on this thing?
What do the, what do the sums

331
00:20:55,480 --> 00:21:00,640
ultimately drive you to?
I, I'm guessing not a 300 person

332
00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:03,960
aircraft like you would see now,
but much smaller.

333
00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:07,600
So could you maybe talk about
how the aircraft design maths

334
00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:13,240
work out in that point?
Of view so you know we're we're

335
00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:18,080
doing the X 59 now we didn't
start out to do a demonstrator.

336
00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:24,200
We we started out to in the in
the early 2000s, we had just

337
00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:27,320
flown the shape Sonic boom
demonstrator and kind of proved

338
00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:32,560
that this approach for quieting
Sonic boom works in a real

339
00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:36,400
atmosphere.
And there was a lot of kind of

340
00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:39,080
innovative thinking going on
then about, you know, how we

341
00:21:39,120 --> 00:21:43,920
would, you know, how, how we
could advance from where our our

342
00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:46,480
state of knowledge on, on
quieting Sonic boom to really

343
00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:49,400
getting to something that was
not only worked well, but was

344
00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:53,480
what was practical in a design.
So we had some ideas.

345
00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:58,240
We had new CFD, we had faster
computers, we had design systems

346
00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:00,520
which enable us to do better
optimization.

347
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:05,480
And we really thought we could
make a major change in the in

348
00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:07,440
the loudness of the supersonic
aircraft.

349
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:12,560
So what we did is we worked with
NASA, worked with Boeing and

350
00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:17,480
Lockheed in two separate studies
to say, OK, if we have this

351
00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:23,640
technology and we incorporate it
in a future design, you know,

352
00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:25,880
what, what, what's, what's
practical.

353
00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:32,640
And what we wound up with was a
about 100 passenger airplanes,

354
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:37,000
so something about the same size
as as Concorde that flies at

355
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:45,280
about Mach 1.82 to 3 engines.
And, you know, 40. 500 or so

356
00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:51,880
miles range, so you know, trans
Pacific, but but barely that all

357
00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:55,440
kind of fit and enabled us to
make an airplane that met the

358
00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:59,560
boom requirements, met the
landing and take off noise

359
00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:04,680
requirements and the admissions
requirements and was it was was

360
00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:07,000
much more efficient at cruise
than Concord.

361
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:17,520
So the those boom shaping
technology, the wanting wanting

362
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:22,200
to meet the noise requirements
all kind of and and trying to

363
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,080
make the airplane out of
materials that that don't have

364
00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:27,200
to be, you know, we don't have
to use special materials for

365
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,720
high heat.
We want we have a propulsion

366
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,760
system that's balanced for take
off the landing and supersonic

367
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:39,800
flight, say about Mach 1.8 is is
the range that is the speed that

368
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:41,920
you want to go for.
So it's a little slower than

369
00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:45,240
Concorde, but it's still twice
as fast as current subsonic

370
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:51,800
airliners.
And is that where still you

371
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:58,040
think the sweet spot is in terms
of the aircraft, the the most

372
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:01,040
practical aircraft, that's what
you started off with it is that

373
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:06,320
still the case that around 100
passengers 1.8 is that, is that

374
00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:10,080
really what all the sort of
analysis studies converge to?

375
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:17,800
There have been more studies,
more market studies since then

376
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:22,240
and, and well, just recently
we've actually, you know, so

377
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,520
there's actually a kind of
another community of researchers

378
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:30,320
and, and companies that are
pushing for faster travel.

379
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:36,880
So Mach 4 or Mach 5.
And so NASA commissioned some,

380
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:41,960
some more recent studies that,
you know, since this is kind of

381
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:45,080
being driven by the high speed,
the higher speed community, we

382
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:49,640
set the Mach range at Mach 2 to
four and four and a half.

383
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:53,000
You know what, what's the best
answer in that speed range?

384
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:56,200
Well, all the best designs came
out to be Mach 2.

385
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:00,960
You know, So what they're kind
of saying is, you know, and

386
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:04,160
they're, what we really were
seeing was those, those designs

387
00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,840
were, were somewhat impractical
because they were constrained to

388
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:12,000
be Mach 2.
So we felt confident that, you

389
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:16,680
know, if we had stretched that
envelope down to Mach 1.7 or so,

390
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:20,000
we would have found even, you
know, we would kind of confirmed

391
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:23,080
our, our previous results.
So the answer is yes.

392
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:27,080
I think generally studies still
seem to point to that, yeah,

393
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:29,800
kind of given what we what we
know in, in, in terms of

394
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:33,160
technology and and given the the
challenges of higher speed

395
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:38,960
flight that for the first
products that that bring kind of

396
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:42,960
bring back supersonic flight
that 1.71.8 mock range is, is

397
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,120
kind of the sweet spot.
OK.

398
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:47,680
And just to maybe, Oh no, please
go.

399
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:50,760
Ahead, Oh, take boom.
You know, Boom Supersonic is is

400
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:56,080
trying to build a essentially a
successor to Concorde smaller,

401
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,280
but you know, it's kind of kind
of that same mission supersonic

402
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:03,160
overwater flight only they
started out, you know, talking

403
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,680
about Mach 2.4 and their current
design is Mach 1.7.

404
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:11,360
So.
That also kind of confirms where

405
00:26:11,360 --> 00:26:13,200
where the technology will take
you.

406
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,760
Yeah.
And just maybe for people's

407
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:21,040
sense, is this actually let
let's maybe go through.

408
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:24,800
Could you just briefly introduce
the NASA program?

409
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,240
You know, there is a specific
NASA program with a certain name

410
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:29,760
And so could you maybe just
briefly introduce, you know,

411
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,120
what is that?
And the X59 I know it there's

412
00:26:32,120 --> 00:26:35,000
like a a specific project, isn't
there?

413
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:41,040
Yes.
So again, after we, well, we,

414
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:43,920
we, we kind of, we proved this
technology to us at least.

415
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,240
So in, in our Boeing and
Lockheed studies, we, we did

416
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:51,120
designs, you know, conceptual
designs, we did a lot of CFD

417
00:26:51,120 --> 00:26:54,800
analysis and then eventually we
tested those designs in wind

418
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,320
tunnels.
So small scale models, really

419
00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,920
trying to test what we did.
We did a number of tests, but

420
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:05,280
the focus of the test was, did
we get the quiet boom design

421
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,600
right?
And we, and lo and behold, we,

422
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,520
we've matched our, our
predictions, our CFD matched our

423
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:14,520
prediction, our, our experiment
almost perfectly.

424
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,160
So we knew that technology could
work.

425
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:19,960
And so there was, there was a
lot of excitement about taking

426
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:21,920
the next step.
Well, let's, let's try and fly

427
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:24,080
it.
But you know, we were very

428
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:27,640
confident in the CFD.
So, you know, we weren't going

429
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,640
to actually prove the technology
in flight.

430
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:32,960
We, you know, we could
demonstrate it in flight, but

431
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:38,000
you know, what we learned from
flight would be, you know, how

432
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:39,640
robust is it?
You know, does it change in

433
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:42,160
different weather conditions?
You know, what speed ranges work

434
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:43,080
best?
You know, kind of that

435
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:46,880
information like that, which
was, you know, exciting science

436
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:50,200
to do, but was not.
A.

437
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:55,000
Program that was getting much
traction with, with, with NASA

438
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:59,240
or with, you know, our, our, our
budget people in the, in the

439
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:03,760
government.
In parallel to all this work, we

440
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:09,480
were doing research on how
people respond to the sound from

441
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,440
supersonic aircraft.
So we had done laboratory

442
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:16,160
studies where we built these
simulators which essentially

443
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:20,720
create a Sonic boom or a quiet
Sonic thump, you know, in a lab

444
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:23,480
situation.
We had, we had found that, you

445
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,760
know, the numbers that we were
getting in our designs, we were

446
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:29,480
able to get to in our designs
were kind of at the threshold

447
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,920
where people really stopped,
almost stopped noticing the

448
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,680
sound.
So what, what, what really sold

449
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:42,480
us was we really wanted to
understand how, how people in a

450
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,640
community, you know, going about
their daily lives would respond

451
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:49,400
to the sound, what level, what
sound level would be acceptable.

452
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:52,120
And that's where we got the, the
traction.

453
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:54,000
So that's what became the quest
mission.

454
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,280
That's the the current big NASA
activity.

455
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:01,720
So what we're doing is, and the
best way to generate that sound

456
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:05,920
in a community is to use an
aircraft that creates a

457
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:11,080
representative sound.
So the Quest mission kind of has

458
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:14,520
three phases.
The first phase, well, all

459
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,320
phases are active now.
The focus right now is building

460
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:20,160
the X59 aircraft.
It's a unique.

461
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:23,400
Technology.
It's a demonstrator aircraft.

462
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,880
It's a research aircraft.
It's not a prototype for, for a

463
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:31,760
supersonic airliner, but it does
create a sound that's similar to

464
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:35,720
what we think the sounds of the
future supersonic aircraft will

465
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:37,840
be.
So we're designing that

466
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:39,640
airplane.
We've, we've contracted with

467
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,680
Lockheed Martin to build the
airplane for us.

468
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:46,080
Their contract runs through
getting the airplane in the air,

469
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,120
doing all the envelope
expansion, as we call it, you

470
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:51,440
know, the safety of flight
checks.

471
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,280
And then they'll essentially
hand us the keys and the

472
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:59,520
airplane will become NASA's
property in the second phase of

473
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:01,840
the of the effort.
We're going to take that

474
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:04,160
airplane, we're going to try,
we'll make sure that the sound

475
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:06,440
that we're getting is what we
expected.

476
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:08,200
So we call that acoustic
validation.

477
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:10,920
Is it loud enough?
Can we vary it enough?

478
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,040
You know, does is it affected by
the atmosphere?

479
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:16,720
Things like that.
We really want to understand

480
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,960
that sound that we make because
eventually we want people to

481
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:21,800
hear that sound.
And that's phase three.

482
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:27,720
So phase three, we'll take the X
59 and we'll go to different

483
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,680
communities.
Right now that we've got 5 or 6

484
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:33,080
tests planned.
It's something in different

485
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:35,680
places in the United States.
We haven't picked those places

486
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:39,360
yet, but we're we're, we're
narrowing it down if you wish.

487
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:45,440
But so the idea is to is to
expose a community to the sounds

488
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,840
of quiet supersonic flight at
different noise levels, have

489
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,880
surveys, have microphones in the
community to measure the sound,

490
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:54,800
have people taking surveys child
how they respond to the sound.

491
00:30:55,280 --> 00:31:01,120
So we can create a a data set
that's describes how you know

492
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:06,120
what, at what sound level it is,
is the sound acceptable and what

493
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:10,120
sound level is it annoying.
In parallel to that, we're

494
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:12,960
working with the International
Civil Aviation Organization,

495
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:15,400
particularly their Committee on
Aviation Environmental

496
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,880
Protection, because those are
the people that write the rules

497
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:24,880
for noise from, from aircraft.
The current regulations for take

498
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,560
off and landing noise all come
from ICAO.

499
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:31,840
They're implemented by, you
know, in the UK it's CAA and the

500
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,160
US it's FAA.
But ICAO, all those groups

501
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,280
participate in ICAO.
They set the standard.

502
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:42,240
So the Quest mission, the main
goal of the Quest mission is to

503
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:50,600
give ICAO the data that they can
use to set the limit of sound

504
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:56,880
for future supersonic aircraft.
So to to create that standard

505
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:01,520
that that manufacturers could
then design airplanes to.

506
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:04,920
OK, I I see that's, that's
really interesting.

507
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:09,320
So what you're basically saying
is, you know, they have to be

508
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:13,840
conservative in nature when it
comes to rules, the rules today

509
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:20,080
that they need, they need as
realistic data as possible to

510
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:25,000
make an informed decision.
And So what your project will do

511
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:28,160
is help set the foundations,
which I then guess when

512
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:31,960
commercial companies like Boom
or others want to certify their

513
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:34,920
aircraft, they will be
certifying to those noise levels

514
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,160
and I guess a certain distance
away and a certain height.

515
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:41,840
And it it's all the parameters I
guess of how they measure.

516
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:47,800
It so the so the the standard.
Has has a yeah, it's kind of

517
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:49,240
that's three elements.
It's a metric.

518
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:50,760
So what are you going to
measure?

519
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:54,720
What, what, what, what, what's
the best way of measuring the,

520
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:57,520
the, the people's response?
What, what number?

521
00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:02,080
What process is a procedure?
You know, so everybody who

522
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:06,200
applies for a type certificate,
you know, has to go through the

523
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:08,880
same procedure.
So it's consistent and then

524
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:11,480
there's a limit, you know what,
what's the value of the metric

525
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:14,920
that that you can choose.
So the quest mission really

526
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:18,360
helps to inform all three of
those elements.

527
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:22,280
You know, we'll be getting a lot
of data.

528
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:26,760
So we we've got some candidate
metrics, you know, we'll be able

529
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:30,280
to test which metric works best
when we're doing that acoustic

530
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:34,720
validation phase that's kind of
that kind of mimics what the

531
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:36,800
certification process would look
like.

532
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:38,800
So we'll get it.
We'll be getting data that can

533
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:42,040
help the define that
certification process.

534
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:44,240
And then when we do the
community testing, we'll be

535
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:47,400
actually getting the data that
will help support defining the

536
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:50,120
limit.
You know, because NASA, NASA can

537
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:53,240
give, you know, we've got a good
reputation as being honest

538
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:55,920
scientific, an honest scientific
community.

539
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,200
We can give that data.
We're, you know, we're pulling

540
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:03,640
in as much of the international
community as we can so that they

541
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:07,280
understand what we're doing.
But, you know, it's, it's

542
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:10,719
essentially creating that data.
But then again, it's up to ICAO

543
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:14,400
and and the international
community to define what the the

544
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:17,880
actual limits and the actual
procedure are going to be.

545
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:24,199
So I'm sure the most difficult
question is the timeline of of

546
00:34:24,199 --> 00:34:27,880
this.
So when is the when is the

547
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,040
aircraft expect to be handed
over to you from Lockheed to be

548
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:35,000
able to start doing some of that
validation?

549
00:34:35,679 --> 00:34:38,639
Yes, yeah.
So yeah, we've, we've

550
00:34:38,639 --> 00:34:43,560
experienced delays, very
exciting though we just had our

551
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:47,320
first engine runs.
So we've started the engine on

552
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:51,920
the airplane for the first time.
So that's kind of a a big step

553
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:55,520
forward in, in kind of the last
phase before we fly.

554
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:59,160
We have, we have to do all this,
this really integrated testing

555
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:01,720
where we're essentially the
airplane is completely alive and

556
00:35:01,720 --> 00:35:04,200
we're running all the systems
and, and making sure

557
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:05,440
everything's talking to each
other.

558
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,720
So once we got that done, then
we, you know, of course you, you

559
00:35:08,720 --> 00:35:12,680
do taxi test 1st and you drive
around, you know, gradually

560
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:14,720
increasing speed and then you
have first flight.

561
00:35:14,720 --> 00:35:18,560
So originally we had planned to
hopefully do first flight this

562
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:22,680
year, but we've had some delays
in getting, getting to the point

563
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:24,200
where we could do the, the
engine run.

564
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:29,840
So now we're looking at sometime
next year for first flight the

565
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:36,040
the phase one, the this envelope
expansion phases is planned for

566
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:40,240
about a year.
So, you know, things go well

567
00:35:40,240 --> 00:35:44,480
sometime early in 2026, maybe
we'll get the we'll get the keys

568
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:47,640
to the airplane and.
We'll be able to start our start

569
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:49,800
our acoustic, you know, our
acoustic testing.

570
00:35:51,240 --> 00:35:56,880
So would it be fair to say that,
you know, realistically assuming

571
00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:02,720
various factors, 20-30 could be
when the international community

572
00:36:02,720 --> 00:36:06,640
would have, could set new rules,
they've done all the tests,

573
00:36:06,720 --> 00:36:10,600
you've given them all the data,
they've debated it and they've

574
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:13,560
set and written these new rules.
Is that approximately or you

575
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:14,560
think it?
Could be faster than that.

576
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:18,360
It's interesting the Kate, this,
this committee on aviation bio

577
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:21,040
protection, they, they have a
three-year cycle.

578
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:26,200
So they have a meeting and at
the meeting all the decisions

579
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,760
based on the work that's gone on
in the previous three years are

580
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:34,320
are finalized and accepted and
then given to the ICAO Council

581
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:42,800
for final approval.
So actually the the 13th Cape

582
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:46,280
cycle is just coming to an end
now.

583
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:50,840
So in February of 2025 will be
the Cape 13 meeting.

584
00:36:52,120 --> 00:37:00,080
So. 2028 is the next one, 2031
is Cape 15 and that is our

585
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:07,200
target for, well that is that is
ICAO's target now for bringing

586
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,240
the standard forward to the
council for approval.

587
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:14,560
So we are on a timeline to
deliver that data.

588
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,280
To give in, in, in, in in a
timely enough manner, to give

589
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:22,320
them plenty of time to review
it, debate it.

590
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:26,240
And then finish writing the
standard to bring forward a Cape

591
00:37:26,240 --> 00:37:30,040
15 meeting in 2031.
OK, Yeah.

592
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:34,080
So maybe before we go any
further, I guess we should

593
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:37,640
actually talk about what
visually is probably the most

594
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:43,360
distinguishing feature the the
sort of long nose, which if I

595
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:47,360
understand correctly was one of
the technologies that has been

596
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,080
able to reduce the the Sonic
boom.

597
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:52,520
Could you maybe talk a little
bit about the physics and how

598
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,640
this helps to reduce the the
noise?

599
00:37:55,720 --> 00:37:56,640
Yeah, sure.
Yeah.

600
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:01,720
So, you know, of course, Sonic
boom is the result of of shock

601
00:38:01,720 --> 00:38:04,600
waves.
Shock waves are instantaneous

602
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:08,880
pressure changes that occur when
an aircraft is flying faster

603
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:11,880
than the speed of sound.
Essentially, You know, for

604
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:14,280
normal aircraft, the subsonic
aircraft, it's creating a

605
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:17,760
pressure change and essentially.
That's being communicated in

606
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:20,640
front of the airplane because.
Pressure changes like a sound

607
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:24,840
it, it all travels at the speed
of sound, so that that's racing

608
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:27,840
out in front of the airplane and
kind of the air is starting to

609
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:29,760
get out of the way.
Well, if you're going faster

610
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:33,120
than sound, you know the air
doesn't know the plane is coming

611
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:34,160
essentially.
So you get.

612
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:36,840
An.
Instantaneous pressure change

613
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:38,920
called called the shockwave.
Whether it's created by an

614
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:40,840
airplane or a rifle bullet, it
doesn't matter.

615
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:44,480
It's it's anything faster than
sound creates an instantaneous

616
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:48,000
pressure change.
If you look at an airplane,

617
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:51,800
anytime the flow is going over,
it has to make a turn.

618
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:54,440
As it goes over some part of the
airplane, you create a

619
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:57,120
shockwave.
So there's a shockwave on the

620
00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:00,000
nose near the airplane.
There's a shockwave on the nose

621
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:01,840
is one on the canopy, the engine
inlets.

622
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:05,600
Anything that sticks out from
the airplane creates a

623
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:09,240
shockwave.
So if you can visualize those

624
00:39:09,240 --> 00:39:11,480
shock waves, which we can do,
we've developed some really

625
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:13,920
interesting technology.
Plus, it's been able to be able

626
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:16,800
to do it in the wind tunnel for
a while, but now we can do it in

627
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:19,840
flight.
You can actually see through

628
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:23,120
what's called schlieren imaging.
You can see the shock waves.

629
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:26,240
And if you could.
See them, you'll, what you see

630
00:39:26,240 --> 00:39:30,800
is they're all different
strengths and they're all kind

631
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:33,840
of randomly spaced along the
airplane wherever the components

632
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:39,200
are because of that, because the
shock waves, the different

633
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:41,800
strengths as that signal.
And again, that signal travels

634
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:45,040
out in 3 dimensions.
Some of it travels towards the

635
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:46,840
ground and that's what we're
most interested in.

636
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:50,240
But as it's as that signal is
traveling, because those waves

637
00:39:50,240 --> 00:39:53,400
of different strength, they're
actually starting to pile up on

638
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:56,360
each other.
So in a short distance from the

639
00:39:56,360 --> 00:40:00,440
airplane, all those shock waves
have piled up into two on, you

640
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:04,200
know, no shock, what becomes
called the no shock, the first

641
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:05,840
leading one and then the tail
shock.

642
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:08,520
And that's a very stable
acoustic system.

643
00:40:09,240 --> 00:40:11,600
Travels to the ground, it's
getting attenuated, it's getting

644
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:14,000
weaker and weaker as it reaches
as as it goes towards the

645
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:15,400
ground.
But still when it reaches the

646
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:21,400
ground, you hear 2 very rapid
pressure changes which you hear

647
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:24,480
as Bang Bang.
You know of, of, of a Sonic

648
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:28,720
boom.
So what we found is the best

649
00:40:28,720 --> 00:40:31,640
approach, the the approach that
seems to work and and can be

650
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:35,160
integrated into a practical
airplane is to keep those shock

651
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:39,160
waves from merging.
So the whole shape of the X 59

652
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:45,000
that long nose is, is it's all
designed to create a systems of

653
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:48,960
system of shock waves near the
airplane where the shocks are

654
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:55,520
relatively the same strength and
relatively evenly spaced along

655
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:56,960
along the length of the
airplane.

656
00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:00,080
So this the initial system has
all these shock waves in it.

657
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:03,760
And because they're, they're
similar in strength, they don't

658
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:06,160
merge as the signal travels to
the ground.

659
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:09,400
They just get the each, each
individual shock gets

660
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:11,840
attenuated.
And that's actually more of a

661
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:15,320
benefit because you get in down
into the denser atmosphere, the

662
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:17,880
shock start to get smeared a
little bit more.

663
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:21,280
So by the time you get to the
ground, you're left with kind of

664
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:27,120
this gradual pressurized instead
of instead of the sharp pressure

665
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:29,520
increase.
So you hear a thump or, or a

666
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:34,680
thud, thud instead of that, that
very disturbing bang, bang.

667
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:41,120
So if you look at the the X 59,
it has a lot of features that we

668
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:44,480
learned about when we did those
airliner studies that long.

669
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:49,200
The long slender nose sets up
most of the forward part of of

670
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:50,920
the acoustic signature if you
wish.

671
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:54,560
And then at the back end you
wrote you just kind of it, it

672
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:56,720
becomes much more complicated.
So you're really trying to

673
00:41:56,720 --> 00:42:01,080
manage the shocks and there's a
little bit more than just having

674
00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:02,720
them be the strain, same
strength.

675
00:42:02,720 --> 00:42:04,920
You can kind of get them to
cancel each other a little bit.

676
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:08,520
So integrating the engine, so
it's like the engine on the X

677
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:14,080
59, it's mounted on top of the
aircraft.

678
00:42:15,720 --> 00:42:18,520
So to prevent the shockwave from
the engine inlet from kind of

679
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:22,800
impeding, impinging on the
bottom signature, the signature

680
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:27,160
that travels to the ground, the
the tail of the airplane is kind

681
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:31,200
of unique on the X59.
We've got a little canard, we've

682
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:34,280
got a conventional horizontal
tail and then a little T tail.

683
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:38,600
Each of those features helps us
generate the lift we need and

684
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:42,480
helps us trim the airplane, but
minimizes the impact of those

685
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:45,160
features on the on the Sonic
boom.

686
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:49,520
They just look nice as well.
I have to say the aircraft

687
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:53,120
actually looks quite nice, which
always helps, right I.

688
00:42:53,240 --> 00:42:56,120
Think yeah, exactly right.
Well, this is an adage in

689
00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:59,000
aircraft design that if it looks
good, it is good.

690
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:05,160
Yeah, of course, Concord
famously had to, you know, tweak

691
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:09,200
the nose for visibility.
How about on on this type of

692
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:10,840
design, what what's the
visibility?

693
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:12,920
And for the pilots, what's their
opinion?

694
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:16,960
It's bad.
We, we, we have, we have a new

695
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:20,280
approach that's it's and thank
you for asking the question

696
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:22,360
because it's really one of the
one of the unique features that

697
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:26,320
NASA has contributed to the
design of the X 59 is our

698
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:30,080
external vision system.
So rather than having a forward

699
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:35,280
facing window, we have a camera
that sticks out from the, from

700
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:38,240
the nose, It's just rounded on
the forward fuselage and it

701
00:43:38,240 --> 00:43:42,560
creates a high definitions, high
definition camera, creates a

702
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:46,880
high definition visual image for
the pilot that's displayed on a

703
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:50,320
screen in front of the in front
of his seat.

704
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:52,960
It's a really interesting
technology.

705
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:56,360
We've, we've, we've flown it in
kind of demonstration flights on

706
00:43:56,360 --> 00:44:02,160
subsonic airplanes.
And we found that it gives the,

707
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:06,480
the cameras and the screens have
reached the point where they can

708
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:11,320
give the pilot the same visual
acuity as they would have with

709
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:13,760
normal, with their eyesight,
their eyes looking through the,

710
00:44:14,240 --> 00:44:18,920
looking through the window.
We did a study where there was a

711
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:21,440
pilot, you know, flying the
airplane and then there was a

712
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:24,840
pilot in the, in the back
looking at the screen.

713
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:28,720
And we flew against opposing
traffic.

714
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:33,520
And it turned out that the pilot
in the back could actually, you

715
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:37,320
know, would generally pick out
the targets faster or earlier

716
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:40,520
further away than the pilot in
the front.

717
00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:42,960
But that's not the end of it.
I mean, if you've got this

718
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:48,120
screen in front of you, you can
mix the radar, infrared, you

719
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:52,920
know, other sensor features in
to really improve situational

720
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:55,320
awareness.
You know, for people who fly,

721
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:58,880
you might not see an airplane,
but when when air traffic

722
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:02,040
controller says, you know,
you've got traffic 12:00, two

723
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:04,000
miles and you look in that
direction.

724
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:06,360
Your chances of.
Seeing it are much better than

725
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:08,960
if you just kind of, you know,
generally looking well, just

726
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:11,760
imagine if if instead of the
control of saying it, you know,

727
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:15,520
the radar system put a little
circle on your screen and said,

728
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:16,640
hey, there's an airplane out
here.

729
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:20,320
You, you, you would always be
able to, to, to see the traffic.

730
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:24,200
So it's a unique technology.
It enables the supersonic

731
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:30,240
aircraft to be designed without
having a complicated heavy nose

732
00:45:30,240 --> 00:45:34,080
drooping system.
But it's also something that you

733
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:38,200
know could have applications in
other in other types of aircraft

734
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:40,320
as well.
How much?

735
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:46,120
How much is the pilot or the
flying experience influencing

736
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:49,680
the design?
You know, if you're a car, if

737
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:53,080
you were, if you're designing a
car, you actually think about

738
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:57,160
driver comfort.
You think about how easy it is

739
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:01,200
to drive the car, to look out
the window to the experience.

740
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:05,360
I I always got the impression
that planes were designed almost

741
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:08,800
without any consideration for
the pilot, but I guess that's

742
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:11,840
maybe not true.
I'm just wondering for this how

743
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:15,400
much you factor in the pilot's
feedback and their needs.

744
00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:24,320
So, you know, human factors is a
big part of aircraft design now.

745
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:28,680
And I think, you know, maybe,
you know, when the first

746
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:31,000
airplanes came out, there was
less attention to, you know,

747
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:33,200
just give them the instruments.
But now I think that's a big

748
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:36,920
part of, you know, how do you
design the, the, the aircraft

749
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:39,120
instrument panel?
How do you display information

750
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:43,200
so the pilot can make maximum
use of it?

751
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:47,120
You know in in a in a safe
manner?

752
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:50,720
You know, one, one thing unique
about the the X 59 is it's, it's

753
00:46:50,720 --> 00:46:53,080
an X plane.
So you know, with the X-plane

754
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:57,920
approach, the idea is we have.
We have certain key things that

755
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:00,080
we want to demonstrate and for
an X plane you really want to

756
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:03,760
make that as small a set of
things as as possible.

757
00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:06,440
So for us, it's.
It's all about, it's all about

758
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:11,000
the Sonic boom.
So, you know, besides the shape

759
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:12,680
of the airplane, the airplane is
kind of a.

760
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:18,400
You know a.
Mishmash of parts from from

761
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:20,840
other airplanes here.
We've got F16 landing gear,

762
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:23,480
we've got an engine from an F18,
etcetera.

763
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:25,680
So the X-plane you know, just
try and make it work.

764
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:32,680
So we did not spend a lot of a
lot of energy on, on human

765
00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:35,480
factors, but we did, you know,
look at it.

766
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:38,280
So we got our pilots involved
early.

767
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:42,960
On, you know, we knew, you know,
we wouldn't have the screen, but

768
00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:46,240
you know, we knew kind of beyond
that kind of wanted to look

769
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:49,640
pretty much like a, a modern
fighter aircraft inside as a

770
00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:52,240
single seat airplane.
But you know, the pilots got in.

771
00:47:52,240 --> 00:47:55,840
We have a, we have a really very
sophisticated, we have actually

772
00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:58,760
have two, one at Lockheed, one
at NASA, really very

773
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:01,720
sophisticated simulators.
So that we put them in the

774
00:48:01,720 --> 00:48:05,480
simulators, you know, with,
with, with, you know, the

775
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:08,240
cockpit design in there and they
were able to interact with it,

776
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:11,080
give feedback and then, you
know, the, the design was

777
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:14,600
updated.
Yeah, as, as we went along.

778
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:16,160
So it's it's, it's it's it's
it's.

779
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:18,680
It's not a huge factor for the X
59.

780
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:22,480
It's a big factor for, you know,
actual commercial aircraft.

781
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:27,040
So I was actually wondering as
maybe a bit of a tangent,

782
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:32,320
there's obviously a lot of
discussion about computational

783
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:36,320
fluid dynamics reducing the
reliance of wind tunnel

784
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:37,960
technology.
You know, if you can do more in

785
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:43,360
CFD and I believe for this
program, CFD was a a big factor

786
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:46,040
in being able to, you know,
iterate quickly and, and

787
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:48,240
visually see what what was going
on.

788
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:52,600
But I was actually wondering,
you mentioned about simulators

789
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:56,360
because obviously normally
there's wind tunnel to CFD, but

790
00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:58,320
then you have to do a flight
test, you know, you actually

791
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:02,160
need to go out and do it.
How much have simulator

792
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:08,360
technology advanced that you can
model some of the sort of flight

793
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:10,480
test behavior through a
simulator?

794
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:13,040
Is that getting also more and
more accurate?

795
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:16,040
Much.
More sophisticated, yeah.

796
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:25,680
And, you know, again, for X 59,
it's, it's, it's, it's, you

797
00:49:25,720 --> 00:49:28,480
know, it's a unique airplane
that, you know, the design will

798
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:31,320
create some interesting, you
know, some, some flight

799
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:35,520
characteristics that are not
typical of, of, of fighters or,

800
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:37,600
or transports.
So we really wanted to

801
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:44,680
understand how, you know, how,
how those things worked and, and

802
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:46,080
how the pilot would interact
with them.

803
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:49,000
So getting a simulation.
So there's, there's so much

804
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:52,720
simulation that goes on now.
There's, there's simulation

805
00:49:52,720 --> 00:49:55,280
without the pilot, there's
simulation with the pilot,

806
00:49:55,760 --> 00:50:00,120
there's simulation without
hardware, you know, like, like

807
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:02,640
the control actuation and the
simulation with hardware.

808
00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:06,360
So, you know, the whole
simulation process is, is a huge

809
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:10,440
part of the, the aircraft design
process right now.

810
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:17,640
So you know, like for X59, we,
we did a lot of analysis, we did

811
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:22,040
do some wind tunnel testing.
You know, there's still, there's

812
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:24,120
still design, there's still
points in the flight envelope

813
00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:26,200
where the CFD is not all that
great.

814
00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:30,760
So you like to augment your CFD
analysis with with testing, but

815
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:34,520
you know, compared to previous
designs, we didn't do a lot of

816
00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:37,120
boom tunnel testing.
As a matter of fact, we

817
00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:42,040
finalized the low boom design,
the boom, you know, quite boom

818
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:47,000
design of the X59 without doing
wind tunnel test of the of the

819
00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:49,880
geometry.
So, you know, that's how far the

820
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:52,440
CFD has come.
We put all this stuff in the in

821
00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:55,240
the in the simulator.
You know, it's been iterated on

822
00:50:55,520 --> 00:51:00,480
a few times.
So, you know, we're, we're,

823
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:05,720
we're, we're going into flight
test with a very good idea of

824
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:11,320
what, what the pilot will
experience flying the airplane

825
00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:15,200
throughout the flight envelope.
Yeah, it's, it is amazing how

826
00:51:15,200 --> 00:51:18,400
the technology is sort of, yeah,
moved on from that point of

827
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:20,680
view.
Just maybe I'm trying to think

828
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:23,480
of a few questions, more
practical questions.

829
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:28,400
So the noise, as you say, going
over the the idea is it's a sort

830
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:33,760
of soft thump, which is less.
It's something like, you know,

831
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:37,640
we used to everyday sounds like,
you know, I guess drones just.

832
00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:41,960
Distant Thunder or, you know,
somebody's car door closing.

833
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:45,480
And we compare the the sound to
to sounds like that.

834
00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:50,040
But what about take off landing?
I meant the, you know, you can

835
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:53,160
go on YouTube now and look at
Concorde, it taking off and you

836
00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:57,000
know, it was an absolute racket,
smoke billowing out of the

837
00:51:57,000 --> 00:51:59,680
engines.
You know, like a real difference

838
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:04,640
to to like a normal aircraft.
What what what's the not for the

839
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:06,480
X59 now?
But I mean more just for like

840
00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:11,200
theoretical design concepts.
How much is the the engine

841
00:52:11,200 --> 00:52:13,200
noise?
Because it's, as you say, it's

842
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:17,320
not a conventional engine.
How much is that different or

843
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:20,920
limiting factor?
It's, it's again, we talked

844
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:22,680
about it earlier.
It's one of it's another kind of

845
00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:29,400
barrier technology that you know
that we, we made a lot of

846
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:40,160
advances in the yeah, again, the
X50 it's not, not an X 59.

847
00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:43,760
We're just using existing
engine, but as part of the, the

848
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:48,120
bigger technology program in, in
NASA aeronautics, we call it's a

849
00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:50,600
commercial supersonic technology
project.

850
00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:55,960
Airport noise is, is one of our,
one of our, our big efforts.

851
00:52:56,840 --> 00:53:04,440
So, you know, we're looking at
the, the, the engine cycle, you

852
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:08,440
know, so we can't have a super
high bypass engine, but at Mach

853
00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:13,280
1.7 we can have some higher, we
can have much higher bypass, you

854
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:16,520
know, much more fan component
than the Concorde did.

855
00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:21,200
So that's that's a major help.
Our jet that you know, the jet

856
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:25,640
coming out of the back of the
engine at subsonic that take off

857
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:29,720
is actually subsonic.
It's not like Concorde was the

858
00:53:29,720 --> 00:53:32,280
jet was fast coming out faster
than the speed of sound, which

859
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:34,280
creates noise, you know, of its
own.

860
00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:37,440
So our jet is subsonic.
We've got nozzle technologies

861
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:41,000
with which mix faster flow with
slower flow.

862
00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:44,400
So the aggregate results coming
out the back end is slower.

863
00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:47,120
And there's a whole idea of, you
know, the propulsion

864
00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:50,360
installation.
Can you use that to, to help

865
00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:52,280
reduce noise?
So all of those things are being

866
00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:56,680
studied and you know, we, we
think again, we've, we've just,

867
00:53:56,840 --> 00:53:59,520
we've done testing, but we think
we've got a solution that can

868
00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:05,480
make subsonic air, supersonic
aircraft as quiet as the current

869
00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:09,240
limits for noise for subsonic
aircraft.

870
00:54:10,720 --> 00:54:14,240
So that's a, that's a big
improvement relative to where

871
00:54:14,240 --> 00:54:18,080
Concorde was.
So I guess the, the big question

872
00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:23,640
on most people's minds is what,
what do you think is the

873
00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:28,320
likelihood of a commercial
version of this?

874
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:33,360
What is the, there's obviously
the research going on you're

875
00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:37,800
doing, there's companies like
Boom, but from what I could

876
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:42,480
gather, Boom, that design looked
more like a traditional or more

877
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:46,840
traditional design than than,
than what you have, I mean.

878
00:54:47,080 --> 00:54:48,720
Yeah.
So, so boom boom's approach is

879
00:54:48,720 --> 00:54:50,360
kind of unique.
They, they want it.

880
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:53,720
They, they, they, they, they,
you know, they see that there's

881
00:54:53,720 --> 00:54:57,160
a market now that they would
like to capitalize.

882
00:54:57,160 --> 00:55:00,680
They've talked about their next
generation of airplane

883
00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:03,320
incorporating, you know, boom
shaping again.

884
00:55:03,320 --> 00:55:08,280
They, they don't want to commit
to doing a design for a low boom

885
00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:12,240
aircraft without having a
standard in place.

886
00:55:12,240 --> 00:55:14,640
As a matter of fact, if they
don't want to commit really to,

887
00:55:14,640 --> 00:55:17,760
well, they're kind of committed,
but they're work, They're

888
00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:23,640
working with ICAO and the FAA is
working with ICAO to put a noise

889
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:26,680
rule in place for supersonic
aircraft landing, a take off

890
00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:28,760
noise rule in place for
supersonic aircraft.

891
00:55:28,760 --> 00:55:30,800
So that would give them that
certainty.

892
00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:38,200
The work, the work with ICAO
really started because there was

893
00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:42,480
a group of companies that really
felt that they could bring to

894
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:47,480
bring a supersonic business jet
product, business aircraft

895
00:55:47,480 --> 00:55:53,600
product to market if they had a
regulation on on how loud that

896
00:55:53,720 --> 00:55:56,960
it needed to be when it flew
over land or how quiet it needed

897
00:55:56,960 --> 00:56:01,040
to be when it flew over land.
So there's, there's definitely

898
00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:05,000
that market out there in the
near term for a smaller

899
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:08,480
aircraft.
NASA is still bullish on.

900
00:56:08,560 --> 00:56:11,800
You know, if we continue this,
continue down this path, there

901
00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:14,840
are technology solutions out
there which could make it

902
00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:20,560
possible to, to design A, an
airliner that could, you know,

903
00:56:20,560 --> 00:56:25,200
serve a supersonic market.
So what's what's stopping it?

904
00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:30,120
So let's imagine the rules come
out and they are essentially

905
00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:34,440
aligned to what you already know
from your simulations.

906
00:56:35,680 --> 00:56:39,000
I, you know, because I presume
you already have a, an estimate

907
00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:42,120
and all all the flight test is
doing really is proving it out.

908
00:56:42,240 --> 00:56:44,480
I guess you know, you have
analytical methods.

909
00:56:44,680 --> 00:56:49,440
So let's just assume that they
agree with your numbers.

910
00:56:50,560 --> 00:56:54,520
Is it is the technology ready?
Is it a case that, you know, a

911
00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:59,200
Bombardier, a Boeing, or whoever
the the company is can just

912
00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:03,000
basically do it?
I know, I know.

913
00:57:03,040 --> 00:57:04,760
I'm massively oversimplifying
things here.

914
00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:07,680
Or is there still something
missing that?

915
00:57:08,120 --> 00:57:16,560
So I, I think that that for a,
for a smaller aircraft, a

916
00:57:16,560 --> 00:57:20,400
business type aircraft, the
technology is very close.

917
00:57:25,080 --> 00:57:30,720
The, the, the, the, the, the,
the key challenge really for,

918
00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:35,440
for a near term product is the
engine, because you need, you

919
00:57:35,440 --> 00:57:37,960
need something that, that gives
you the efficiency that need.

920
00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:42,560
And, but we'll meet that, that
new landing and take off noise

921
00:57:42,560 --> 00:57:45,320
rule.
It's possible you could do it

922
00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:49,280
with a, with a modification to
an existing engine, change the,

923
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:51,160
change the front end, change the
back end.

924
00:57:51,600 --> 00:57:55,360
But more than likely you're
going to need a, a new engine.

925
00:57:56,120 --> 00:57:59,440
And and that's even that's
magnified a little bit more for

926
00:57:59,440 --> 00:58:03,600
the, for the larger product.
You really need kind of a, a, a

927
00:58:05,040 --> 00:58:10,400
bigger step in technology, in
engine technology to to be able

928
00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:16,840
to make the airplane meet noise
and emissions limits.

929
00:58:17,320 --> 00:58:21,480
For by big and small are you
talking small being the hundred

930
00:58:21,480 --> 00:58:24,840
person?
No, I'm talking small being

931
00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:28,040
yeah, the next step for
Gulfstream say, yeah, an

932
00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:31,880
airplane that's, you know, room
for it, maybe 810 passengers or

933
00:58:31,960 --> 00:58:36,640
maybe, maybe, maybe up to 50
like Boom was imagining with 40.

934
00:58:36,640 --> 00:58:39,240
I can't remember exactly where
their target is, but so that's

935
00:58:39,240 --> 00:58:43,080
the smaller airplane.
The the what we're thinking

936
00:58:43,080 --> 00:58:46,320
about for the first generation
of you know, airliner products

937
00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:49,320
would be 100 seat around 100
seat airplane.

938
00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:51,920
OK.
So, So what I understand you're

939
00:58:51,920 --> 00:58:55,560
saying that it's, it's the
engine technology in some ways

940
00:58:55,560 --> 00:59:01,200
that is the the more challenging
technology and it obviously gets

941
00:59:01,840 --> 00:59:06,360
a more important or challenging,
the bigger, the heavier that it

942
00:59:06,360 --> 00:59:08,640
becomes.
Think of it as a business to can

943
00:59:08,640 --> 00:59:13,440
be can afford to be a little
less efficient because there's

944
00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:16,160
people willing to pay for speed.
But the airliner needs

945
00:59:16,320 --> 00:59:20,280
efficiency, quiet and low
emissions, which is a which

946
00:59:20,280 --> 00:59:23,720
takes a new set of technologies.
There there's ideas.

947
00:59:23,800 --> 00:59:26,960
Out there, there's technologies.
That kind of the the infant

948
00:59:26,960 --> 00:59:29,760
level, infancy level, but they
need to be mature.

949
00:59:30,920 --> 00:59:35,080
And is there any, you know, how
the economics work when when

950
00:59:35,080 --> 00:59:37,840
something aligns to something
else, there's double the reason

951
00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:41,400
to do it?
Is there any similar reason,

952
00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:45,400
like a military reason or
another reason that aligns this?

953
00:59:45,400 --> 00:59:50,800
Or is this quite unique in some
ways for a passenger supersonic?

954
00:59:52,800 --> 00:59:59,640
The the, the military is not
really interested in quieting

955
00:59:59,640 --> 01:00:02,680
quiet that they they would look
to have supersonic speeds.

956
01:00:03,240 --> 01:00:06,560
They don't, It doesn't seem to
be a a major requirement for

957
01:00:06,560 --> 01:00:09,040
military missions, you know, at
the moment, because if you look

958
01:00:09,040 --> 01:00:12,320
what's out there now, the
airplanes can go supersonic, but

959
01:00:12,480 --> 01:00:14,960
not very supersonic.
They don't certainly don't

960
01:00:14,960 --> 01:00:19,400
cruise supersonic.
Yeah, if they could do it, would

961
01:00:19,400 --> 01:00:20,720
they?
Yeah, maybe.

962
01:00:21,760 --> 01:00:25,360
But yeah, they obviously, you
know, other tech, other

963
01:00:25,560 --> 01:00:30,200
requirements, you know, stealth
and IR are kind of driving

964
01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:33,720
military designs, which you
know, the intersection between

965
01:00:33,720 --> 01:00:37,440
that and low boom design is is
not is not there.

966
01:00:39,160 --> 01:00:48,000
So, so it really is, would you
say companies are just hedging

967
01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:51,200
their bet or waiting because
they're just they're just not

968
01:00:51,200 --> 01:00:54,920
sure when the rules will change.
So it's almost hard for them to

969
01:00:54,920 --> 01:00:58,520
put the investment in to start
designing something If the

970
01:00:58,520 --> 01:01:02,320
unclear is that also one of the
key barriers to it?

971
01:01:02,640 --> 01:01:05,080
Yeah, it comes and goes.
I mean, there was, there was,

972
01:01:05,320 --> 01:01:08,560
there was a lot of work going on
a few years ago.

973
01:01:09,920 --> 01:01:12,560
Some of the companies have, have
put those efforts on the back

974
01:01:12,560 --> 01:01:13,320
burner.
Essentially.

975
01:01:13,360 --> 01:01:16,640
I, I, I would say yes, they're
waiting for those regulatory

976
01:01:18,720 --> 01:01:22,160
guidance, you know, that, that,
that, you know, understanding of

977
01:01:22,160 --> 01:01:25,360
what, of what, what their design
requirements will need to be

978
01:01:26,320 --> 01:01:30,160
before they, before they plunge
back into to, you know, look

979
01:01:30,160 --> 01:01:35,720
into products.
So maybe, and again, this is

980
01:01:35,720 --> 01:01:38,000
always a common question, I must
admit I'm guilty of sometimes

981
01:01:38,000 --> 01:01:40,240
thinking the same.
And you, you partially answered

982
01:01:40,240 --> 01:01:45,440
it before, but maybe we could be
more explicit if let's say the

983
01:01:45,440 --> 01:01:48,560
supersonic 1.8 Mac number is
solved.

984
01:01:49,040 --> 01:01:51,960
So, you know, the new rules come
out, there is sufficient

985
01:01:51,960 --> 01:01:55,200
economic reason for the for the
engine manufacturers to do it.

986
01:01:55,440 --> 01:01:58,040
And a supersonic business jet
comes out.

987
01:01:59,680 --> 01:02:03,080
In your mind, what's the
technical or economic potential

988
01:02:03,080 --> 01:02:06,160
of a hypersonic passenger
Travel?

989
01:02:07,040 --> 01:02:10,800
OK, not 100 people, but you
know, 20-30 people.

990
01:02:11,800 --> 01:02:14,720
Mac 5 maxi Is that science
fiction?

991
01:02:15,160 --> 01:02:16,600
Is it?
Is it?

992
01:02:17,040 --> 01:02:19,720
Is it possible?
Is it I wouldn't, I wouldn't put

993
01:02:19,720 --> 01:02:25,000
it in terms of science fiction,
but the you know, the challenges

994
01:02:25,000 --> 01:02:29,240
are are are much, much greater
than for for supersonic.

995
01:02:29,320 --> 01:02:35,280
You get to you get to very high
altitudes and you get to very

996
01:02:35,280 --> 01:02:39,200
high temperatures when you get
to Mach 4 and Mach 5.

997
01:02:39,800 --> 01:02:44,360
So, you know, being able to
design something that's

998
01:02:44,760 --> 01:02:47,640
reusable, you know that the
materials that will last for,

999
01:02:48,240 --> 01:02:49,880
you know, for thousands of
flights.

1000
01:02:51,240 --> 01:02:53,160
And then so there, you know,
then some of the safety

1001
01:02:53,160 --> 01:02:55,600
considerations, you know, one of
the things that airplanes are

1002
01:02:55,600 --> 01:02:59,160
designed for event of a
depressurization, you know, the,

1003
01:02:59,920 --> 01:03:02,840
the, you know, there's a way to
keep people, you know, keep up,

1004
01:03:02,960 --> 01:03:05,240
keep up people alive until the
airplane gets down.

1005
01:03:05,280 --> 01:03:08,320
When there's when you're up at
7080 thousand feet, that's a

1006
01:03:08,560 --> 01:03:18,240
huge, huge challenge.
So yeah, I know NASA is NASA is,

1007
01:03:18,560 --> 01:03:22,520
we have a hypersonics project.
They're looking at hypersonics

1008
01:03:22,520 --> 01:03:26,720
technology more from the the
point of view of, you know what,

1009
01:03:26,720 --> 01:03:30,120
what would it be for helping
space launch?

1010
01:03:30,320 --> 01:03:33,160
You know, what would its
applications be in space launch?

1011
01:03:34,560 --> 01:03:38,120
But again, we had this whole
study looking at, you know, is,

1012
01:03:38,120 --> 01:03:39,840
is high speed flight a
possibility?

1013
01:03:40,640 --> 01:03:44,360
Peter's opinion is it's going to
be a very long time before the

1014
01:03:44,360 --> 01:03:49,040
technology is ready to even even
take, you know, 8 or 10 people

1015
01:03:50,000 --> 01:03:53,240
into into, into hypersonic
flight.

1016
01:03:55,000 --> 01:03:57,240
Yeah, it seems you.
Know, maybe, maybe the, you

1017
01:03:57,240 --> 01:04:01,960
know, the whole idea of orbital
transport, you know, will come

1018
01:04:01,960 --> 01:04:07,720
before, before hypersonic flight
cause, and again, you know,

1019
01:04:07,720 --> 01:04:12,280
getting, getting people on board
and making it safe and

1020
01:04:12,280 --> 01:04:14,760
economical is a, is a, is a big
step.

1021
01:04:15,760 --> 01:04:19,520
Yeah, I think the overriding
thing for most people is, and

1022
01:04:19,520 --> 01:04:22,360
I'm sure you feel the same being
so passionately involved in this

1023
01:04:22,360 --> 01:04:25,240
project.
There's always, normally we're

1024
01:04:25,240 --> 01:04:29,400
used to technology adoption
being a linear thing.

1025
01:04:29,600 --> 01:04:32,400
You know, something gets faster,
faster, faster.

1026
01:04:32,400 --> 01:04:34,000
And we almost never go
backwards, do we?

1027
01:04:34,000 --> 01:04:36,280
You know, the internet's got
faster, computers have got

1028
01:04:36,280 --> 01:04:38,720
faster.
It's always a sort of

1029
01:04:38,720 --> 01:04:43,160
peculiarity that we did go
supersonic and we were doing it

1030
01:04:43,600 --> 01:04:45,520
and now we've sort of got
backwards.

1031
01:04:45,520 --> 01:04:50,200
And I always, I guess that's why
for most people, supersonic

1032
01:04:50,200 --> 01:04:54,040
travel is such a intriguing
thing because they know it used

1033
01:04:54,040 --> 01:04:55,600
to be.
And I guess some people have

1034
01:04:56,000 --> 01:04:59,080
were lucky enough to fly in
Concorde and maybe they even

1035
01:04:59,080 --> 01:05:01,800
more so wish it were still here.
But for people like me, it's,

1036
01:05:01,800 --> 01:05:05,440
it's just a fascinating thing
that we did it and now, you

1037
01:05:05,440 --> 01:05:06,800
know, I guess it's like going to
the moon.

1038
01:05:06,840 --> 01:05:09,360
You know, we, we did it, but we
haven't been back for quite a

1039
01:05:09,360 --> 01:05:12,920
while.
And but I guess that's also

1040
01:05:12,920 --> 01:05:15,120
changing but.
You know.

1041
01:05:15,240 --> 01:05:17,320
It's it's.
Yeah.

1042
01:05:17,360 --> 01:05:19,320
I mean, you know, spaceflight
did the same thing.

1043
01:05:19,320 --> 01:05:21,840
It was, you know, it was we
needed that.

1044
01:05:21,880 --> 01:05:24,280
We needed that technology.
There was a space, there was a

1045
01:05:24,280 --> 01:05:28,560
space race.
So, you know, it was a stretch.

1046
01:05:28,600 --> 01:05:33,800
You know, the moon, the moon
landing was a was a big stretch.

1047
01:05:33,800 --> 01:05:37,840
Concorde was a big stretch.
And you know, maybe we stretched

1048
01:05:37,840 --> 01:05:41,280
a little too far, you know,
prove that it was practical.

1049
01:05:41,280 --> 01:05:44,800
But for a supersonic flight, for
example, revealed that there

1050
01:05:44,800 --> 01:05:50,360
were some, some things which,
you know, which you have to, you

1051
01:05:50,360 --> 01:05:52,840
have to create a balance.
You know, we like to go faster,

1052
01:05:52,840 --> 01:05:54,880
but we can't disturb people's
lives.

1053
01:05:55,360 --> 01:05:56,640
You know, now we've got
aircraft.

1054
01:05:56,640 --> 01:05:58,160
Aircraft are going to have to be
sustainable.

1055
01:05:58,160 --> 01:06:02,080
They have to, you know, not, not
contribute to, to, to climate

1056
01:06:02,080 --> 01:06:05,240
change.
So there's more things to weigh

1057
01:06:05,240 --> 01:06:11,760
than just speed, which which,
you know, again, kind of puts

1058
01:06:11,760 --> 01:06:20,000
barriers in the way of, of, of
reaching that goal. 11 quick

1059
01:06:20,000 --> 01:06:24,920
question before I'd maybe a
completely changed topic battery

1060
01:06:24,920 --> 01:06:33,080
technology, it's always been I
remember for cars, there was a

1061
01:06:33,080 --> 01:06:35,560
point when people said it was
never going to be available for

1062
01:06:35,560 --> 01:06:39,200
cars electric, you know, they
have a a little golf buggy and

1063
01:06:39,200 --> 01:06:41,200
that's about it.
There's no way it's ever going

1064
01:06:41,200 --> 01:06:44,640
to be for a car.
And yet suddenly the whole

1065
01:06:44,640 --> 01:06:47,200
market started to transform and
it really felt like there was a

1066
01:06:47,200 --> 01:06:49,920
step change in the adoption of
electric.

1067
01:06:50,960 --> 01:06:54,160
I haven't been following it as
closely, but where do you see

1068
01:06:54,280 --> 01:06:58,080
battery?
Battery technology for aircraft

1069
01:06:58,080 --> 01:06:59,400
propulsion?
I don't mean complete.

1070
01:07:00,200 --> 01:07:02,200
Background battery guy.
But I.

1071
01:07:03,360 --> 01:07:13,120
Will say that, you know, in in
NASA aeronautics, unique new

1072
01:07:13,120 --> 01:07:19,800
sustainable propulsion systems
are, you know, are are, are an

1073
01:07:19,800 --> 01:07:22,880
area of intense interest.
So we have a number of efforts

1074
01:07:23,720 --> 01:07:31,520
looking at yeah, battery powered
electric flight for smaller

1075
01:07:31,520 --> 01:07:33,640
aircraft.
We have something called the

1076
01:07:34,120 --> 01:07:36,360
electrified propulsion flight
demonstration.

1077
01:07:36,840 --> 01:07:38,280
It's an effort that's going on
right now.

1078
01:07:38,280 --> 01:07:44,200
There's there's two contractors,
GE and Magne X Magnex has built

1079
01:07:44,200 --> 01:07:48,040
a number of electric powered
airplanes already investigating,

1080
01:07:48,040 --> 01:07:50,040
you know, what it would take to
get there.

1081
01:07:50,240 --> 01:07:52,360
Would it would it be battery?
Would it be hybrid?

1082
01:07:53,160 --> 01:07:56,160
Would it use fuel cells?
You know, all all those kind of

1083
01:07:56,160 --> 01:08:01,240
features towards, you know,
making essentially non

1084
01:08:01,240 --> 01:08:05,600
combustion propulsion a viable
option.

1085
01:08:06,640 --> 01:08:09,240
There's there's a lot of work
that needs to be done.

1086
01:08:09,240 --> 01:08:14,360
But again, you know, like you
said, I mean, when people, you

1087
01:08:14,400 --> 01:08:16,399
know, a few years ago, people
couldn't imagine an electric

1088
01:08:16,399 --> 01:08:20,279
car, people couldn't imagine a a
rocket that would come back and

1089
01:08:20,279 --> 01:08:22,359
land on.
On.

1090
01:08:22,840 --> 01:08:24,840
The ground.
So, so you know, never say, you

1091
01:08:24,840 --> 01:08:29,080
know, it's you try to challenge
yourself, you know, to be

1092
01:08:29,080 --> 01:08:32,359
realistic and think about what
you know we can do in the near

1093
01:08:32,359 --> 01:08:34,160
term, but you really should
never say never.

1094
01:08:34,760 --> 01:08:37,200
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, being caught by some

1095
01:08:37,240 --> 01:08:40,439
scissors that probably wasn't on
people's minds a while ago.

1096
01:08:40,680 --> 01:08:43,920
So maybe the maybe the final
question for you, which is

1097
01:08:44,520 --> 01:08:47,960
you've worked for NASA for for
decades now, I guess, you know,

1098
01:08:48,120 --> 01:08:52,080
maybe more than 30 years.
What advice would you give to

1099
01:08:52,080 --> 01:08:55,720
people who are looking to start
a career in aeronautics?

1100
01:08:55,720 --> 01:08:59,000
But what I know it's probably a
question you get a lot, but what

1101
01:08:59,000 --> 01:09:01,560
would you be about if you, if
you're somebody maybe in the

1102
01:09:01,560 --> 01:09:04,960
final years of school, thinking
about university, thinking about

1103
01:09:04,960 --> 01:09:07,520
career, what would be your
advice?

1104
01:09:07,680 --> 01:09:11,520
To that, well, I mean, one of
the things I always tell people

1105
01:09:11,520 --> 01:09:14,880
I know I got a degree in
aerospace, aeronautical

1106
01:09:14,880 --> 01:09:20,840
engineering, which you know,
give me unique set of skills,

1107
01:09:20,840 --> 01:09:22,880
obviously, you know which got me
into the aerospace business.

1108
01:09:24,200 --> 01:09:27,479
There are other degrees, you
know, which you should, you

1109
01:09:27,479 --> 01:09:30,800
know, electrical engineering,
you know, mechanical

1110
01:09:30,800 --> 01:09:35,040
engineering, all, you know, all
of those things can give you an

1111
01:09:35,040 --> 01:09:39,800
opportunity to get into an
aerospace field.

1112
01:09:39,880 --> 01:09:42,840
You know, for people in school,
you know, there's, there's so

1113
01:09:42,840 --> 01:09:47,319
many internship opportunities.
I, I, you know, I say, you know,

1114
01:09:47,560 --> 01:09:52,920
take any, any opportunity that
you have to do that, you know,

1115
01:09:53,319 --> 01:09:56,520
take it because it, you know,
gives you experience to, to help

1116
01:09:56,520 --> 01:09:58,560
you, you figure out what you
really want to do.

1117
01:09:59,600 --> 01:10:03,560
It gives you exposure to how
industry works and you meet

1118
01:10:03,560 --> 01:10:08,120
people, you know, who could, you
know, kind of benefit, get

1119
01:10:08,120 --> 01:10:09,920
benefit for you when you start
your career.

1120
01:10:11,240 --> 01:10:16,200
You know, beyond that, when you
get to work, be a team player.

1121
01:10:18,360 --> 01:10:23,160
Be willing to do something that
puts yourself outside of your

1122
01:10:23,160 --> 01:10:25,080
comfort zone.
I was, you know, pretty much a

1123
01:10:25,440 --> 01:10:28,440
technology guy, you know, very
happy doing my little aircraft

1124
01:10:28,440 --> 01:10:31,120
design work.
My bosses kept pushing me to get

1125
01:10:31,120 --> 01:10:34,640
involved more of these
multidisciplinary studies that

1126
01:10:34,640 --> 01:10:38,040
were going on.
And then, you know, gave me, it

1127
01:10:38,040 --> 01:10:40,240
was a challenge for me, you
know, to get out there and

1128
01:10:40,280 --> 01:10:41,920
interact with with people.
But.

1129
01:10:42,560 --> 01:10:45,960
You know.
Definitely gave me a skill set

1130
01:10:46,400 --> 01:10:51,120
which was, you know, really very
important as I got into the

1131
01:10:51,120 --> 01:10:55,560
position where we helped create,
I helped create the, the, the

1132
01:10:55,680 --> 01:11:00,000
program that eventually led to
creation of the quest mission.

1133
01:11:00,120 --> 01:11:05,280
So, you know, by being able to
work with people and, and, you

1134
01:11:05,280 --> 01:11:10,920
know, set common goals and, you
know, set up an environment

1135
01:11:10,920 --> 01:11:14,480
where you can achieve those
goals that, that was an old part

1136
01:11:14,480 --> 01:11:18,280
of the background.
You know that that exposing

1137
01:11:18,280 --> 01:11:21,360
myself to, to just to things
outside of, you know, just the,

1138
01:11:21,400 --> 01:11:25,960
the typical math and science
help me, you know, help, help

1139
01:11:25,960 --> 01:11:31,800
set me on that path.
And is there any in in now, I

1140
01:11:31,800 --> 01:11:38,040
guess as the aerospace industry
is changing and the start-ups

1141
01:11:38,040 --> 01:11:41,800
around and you know, do you
think how valuable is it for

1142
01:11:41,800 --> 01:11:46,280
people to, for example, do a PhD
and go down the more academic

1143
01:11:46,280 --> 01:11:50,440
becoming an expert or how much
of it is valuable to also gain

1144
01:11:50,880 --> 01:11:53,240
sort of industrial experience?
You know, would you, if you're

1145
01:11:53,240 --> 01:11:56,000
looking at employing somebody,
would you, would you like

1146
01:11:56,000 --> 01:11:59,800
somebody who's, you know, worked
at different smaller aircraft

1147
01:11:59,800 --> 01:12:02,880
manufacturers or companies and
bring diverse skills?

1148
01:12:02,880 --> 01:12:06,600
Or would you tend to say to
people, no, go down the more

1149
01:12:07,160 --> 01:12:11,040
academic you know, doing a PhD
or maybe becoming a research

1150
01:12:11,040 --> 01:12:12,640
scientist?
Is there anything?

1151
01:12:13,600 --> 01:12:17,720
You've observed there's, there's
benefits to, to everything.

1152
01:12:17,880 --> 01:12:20,880
Again, I, I talked about being,
being able to work as part of a

1153
01:12:20,880 --> 01:12:26,920
team, you know, so to me, if I'm
hiring people, someone who's had

1154
01:12:26,920 --> 01:12:32,880
that kind of experience would
be, yeah, would be something

1155
01:12:32,880 --> 01:12:35,000
that I would look for, you know,
to bring forward.

1156
01:12:36,960 --> 01:12:40,160
You know, that said, you know,
we've got, we've got people, you

1157
01:12:40,160 --> 01:12:44,320
know, that have come to NASA
from, from, you know, from

1158
01:12:44,320 --> 01:12:47,200
different higher education, you
know, from PhDs, from, from

1159
01:12:47,200 --> 01:12:51,040
master's programs.
And yeah, they're, they're just,

1160
01:12:51,240 --> 01:12:54,200
they're, they're brilliant, you
know, so that puts them on the

1161
01:12:54,200 --> 01:12:56,360
right path to begin with.
They've kind of honed that

1162
01:12:56,360 --> 01:12:59,960
knowledge.
They've already maybe, you know,

1163
01:13:00,360 --> 01:13:03,960
got this idea that they can do
something new and unique.

1164
01:13:06,240 --> 01:13:10,240
And you, you put them with a
team that addresses all the

1165
01:13:10,240 --> 01:13:14,320
other aspects of that, that new
and unique idea is that, and

1166
01:13:14,320 --> 01:13:15,520
that's how you get to
breakthroughs.

1167
01:13:15,520 --> 01:13:19,480
And that's kind of, that's a lot
of what happened with the the

1168
01:13:19,480 --> 01:13:21,240
design that, you know, the
design that led us to.

1169
01:13:21,280 --> 01:13:25,560
X59.
Well, thank you so much for

1170
01:13:25,640 --> 01:13:27,760
taking the time to speak.
I mean, what I think I'll do is

1171
01:13:27,760 --> 01:13:31,240
I'll put a bunch of links for
people to follow because I know

1172
01:13:31,240 --> 01:13:35,360
there's lots of, you know,
videos and, and, and papers that

1173
01:13:35,360 --> 01:13:37,880
have been published on these
things that maybe people could

1174
01:13:37,880 --> 01:13:41,120
dive into.
And of course, you know, the

1175
01:13:41,120 --> 01:13:47,320
NASA, NASA website,
nasa.gov/quest two s s there's,

1176
01:13:47,320 --> 01:13:51,200
there's all kinds of information
about the, the project there.

1177
01:13:51,200 --> 01:13:53,760
People can sign up for our
boarding pass which your, you

1178
01:13:53,760 --> 01:13:57,560
know, your date name will be
digitally carried aloft on the

1179
01:13:57,560 --> 01:14:01,800
1st Friday, the X 59.
And, you know, again, it's a

1180
01:14:01,800 --> 01:14:04,520
great way to interact with with
with, you know, get information

1181
01:14:04,520 --> 01:14:08,840
about what's going on at NASA.
Great well, I, I certainly hope

1182
01:14:08,880 --> 01:14:12,160
that it I'll have the
opportunity to fly on a

1183
01:14:12,160 --> 01:14:15,960
supersonic aircraft and I, I,
I'm sure that if it does happen

1184
01:14:16,120 --> 01:14:19,840
it will most likely be thanks to
the work that you and your team

1185
01:14:19,920 --> 01:14:23,720
has done so anybody listening to
this should be thankful of the

1186
01:14:23,720 --> 01:14:26,360
work that you and your team are
doing because it might help save

1187
01:14:26,360 --> 01:14:28,720
us from 8 hour flights across to
the US yeah we're.

1188
01:14:30,840 --> 01:14:33,600
We're just hoping, you know,
again, it's, it's important that

1189
01:14:35,080 --> 01:14:38,840
yeah, whatever we do, the public
buys into, you know, so getting

1190
01:14:38,840 --> 01:14:42,120
their opinion is all, all about
all what quest is about.

1191
01:14:42,120 --> 01:14:46,560
But we do, you know, for NASA,
you know, high speed flight is,

1192
01:14:46,640 --> 01:14:50,840
is just is, is part of our the
kind of the, the foundational

1193
01:14:50,840 --> 01:14:53,000
things that we're, we're working
towards.

1194
01:14:53,680 --> 01:14:55,640
Yeah.
Well, thank you again.

1195
01:14:55,640 --> 01:14:57,480
Really appreciate.
It was great to talk to you.

1196
01:14:57,560 --> 01:14:59,440
And yeah, good luck for the rest
of the program.

1197
01:14:59,440 --> 01:15:00,360
Pleasure talking to you, Neil.